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Holding actions (to interrupt spells)


Gandalf970
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This one comes down to world building. 

 

What do you require to successfully cast in your magic system?  What outside influences would prevent that? 

 

If you mandate gestures, then restraining or even I terdwrring with them will be enough.  If you mandate concentraction, then a good slap to the face might be enough. 

 

I could go on, but I think you can see what I mean: it's a matter of how your magic system works, and interrupting a necessary step. 

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8 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

then restraining or even I terdwrring with them will be enough.

 

Dunno about anyone else but I am fascinated to hear what I terdwrring actually involves....

 

Otherwise, Duke is right.  When you create your magic system you get to decide what would interfere with casting.  It all depends on the disadvantages built into the spells.

 

Doc

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Gandalf970 since you have a Hero system Grimore, look at the limitations on the Spells. Those for those Spells tell you how to interrupt a spell. For example, is there a OAF involved? Disarm the Foci from the Caster. Incantations? Choke or Choke Hold works nicely or a Darkness Field (silence) works too. Gestures? Grab those arms!  Note if a spell has all three limitations, you only need to interrupt one to stop the spell. That’s why they get a big discount on the spells.  Our group targets the first fool who mumbles “unga bunga” that works too! 😁

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 In most D&D spells you have Concentration, and material components. A lack of either will cause the spell to fail.  So in Hero terms, a D&D spell needs Concentration (Ego roll, often) and needs a consumable Focus or charges to represent the material components.  Now, Hero being an open system, you can pick and choose what limitation one's own magic system will be.  Pile enough limitations on a spell, and you can create hugely powerful effects, for not much cost in terms of "real points".  The downside is that  anything targeting those limitation, will cause the whole edifice to crumble.  The fun things for me, was to build spell systems that reflected the cultures they arose from, this gave magic distinct regional flavor. Don't be too timid, Play around a little and find something you like.

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This is absurd.  Gandalf970 asked a very straight-forward question with a very straight-forward answer and nobody's managed to even touch on it. 

 

@Gandalf970 Reference FREDp296, FREDp297, 6E1p381

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If the character takes damage from or is adversely affected by any power that requires an Attack Roll or ECV Attack Roll while he’s Gesturing, the power doesn’t activate or immediately turns off.

Quote

If he takes damage or is adversely affected by any power that requires an Attack Roll or ECV Attack Roll while he’s Incanting, the power doesn’t turn on or immediately turns off.

 

All that's needed to disrupt casting is to land an attack that's not totally negated by defenses.  A single point of STUN or other such effect is enough to cancel the entire spell. 

The procedure thus becomes holding one's action until the caster casts, winning the DEX vs DEX roll to act first when the caster casts, hitting, and dealing any damage.  This negates the spell, with nothing the caster can do at this point. 

 

6E's Fantasy Hero contains text on page 165 that indicates Gestures and Incantations begin at the start of the Segment, and thus holding until the caster's DEX and the DEX vs DEX roll are unnecessary, making the process even easier.  Just go first on that Segment and hit them. 

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31 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

This is absurd. 

 

It's not, really.

 

And here's why:

 

31 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

 

All that's needed to disrupt casting is to land an attack that's not totally negated by defenses.  A single point of STUN or other such effect is enough to cancel the entire spell. 

The procedure thus becomes holding one's action until the caster casts, winning the DEX vs DEX roll to act first when the caster casts, hitting, and dealing any damage.  This negates the spell, with nothing the caster can do at this point. 

 

 

HERO isn't a game anymore.  It's a kit for building your game.

 

Suppose your game requires a caster who takes damage to make an EGO roll to remain focused on the spell if he takes a point of damage.  Or ten points of damage.  Or whatever you decide to allow in your game.

 

So it goes back to how your system works, and what crucial bits you have pre-determined will throw off the casting.

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3 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

This is absurd.  Gandalf970 asked a very straight-forward question with a very straight-forward answer and nobody's managed to even touch on it. 

 

@Gandalf970 Reference FREDp296, FREDp297, 6E1p381

 

All that's needed to disrupt casting is to land an attack that's not totally negated by defenses.  A single point of STUN or other such effect is enough to cancel the entire spell. 

The procedure thus becomes holding one's action until the caster casts, winning the DEX vs DEX roll to act first when the caster casts, hitting, and dealing any damage.  This negates the spell, with nothing the caster can do at this point. 

 

6E's Fantasy Hero contains text on page 165 that indicates Gestures and Incantations begin at the start of the Segment, and thus holding until the caster's DEX and the DEX vs DEX roll are unnecessary, making the process even easier.  Just go first on that Segment and hit them. 

Gnome BODY I really appreciate this.  I understand there is a lot of what rules would you use answers.  I should reword my questions in the future.  Thanks Ninja-Bear!

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3 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

It's not, really.

 

And here's why:

 

 

HERO isn't a game anymore.  It's a kit for building your game.

 

Suppose your game requires a caster who takes damage to make an EGO roll to remain focused on the spell if he takes a point of damage.  Or ten points of damage.  Or whatever you decide to allow in your game.

 

So it goes back to how your system works, and what crucial bits you have pre-determined will throw off the casting.

I’m going to disagree here with yah Duke. Yes the game has optional rules and it has house rules (what game doesn’t?). However unless those are stated in the question, the assumption is that we’re looking at RAW. 

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6 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

I’m going to disagree here with yah Duke. Yes the game has optional rules and it has house rules (what game doesn’t?). However unless those are stated in the question, the assumption is that we’re looking at RAW. 

 

So I have built myself a Fantasy Hero character and, with permission from the GM, have an instinctive magician, small VPP that allows me to hurry spells, dispense with gestures, with concentration or any other element as desired.

 

What would Gandalph's character do to interrupt my spellcasting?  Anything guaranteed to work RAW? 

 

All Duke has said is that it might be different in every game and there may be some games in which you cannot interrupt spellcasting.

 

Doc

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8 hours ago, Gandalf970 said:

Gnome BODY I really appreciate this.  I understand there is a lot of what rules would you use answers.  I should reword my questions in the future.  Thanks Ninja-Bear!

No problem. 

I don't think rewording the question would help, alas.  A number of users on this forum don't care if you want RAW.  They want to theorycraft and be inventive and that's great, but not when somebody's asking about the rules as they're written or a particular construct. 

  

1 hour ago, Doc Democracy said:

So I have built myself a Fantasy Hero character and, with permission from the GM, have an instinctive magician, small VPP that allows me to hurry spells, dispense with gestures, with concentration or any other element as desired.

18 hours ago, Gandalf970 said:

How does interrupting spell casting look in Fantasy Hero.  I assume a player holds an action and uses the gestures or incantations as a trigger.  Does the spell caster automatically lose the spell if hit, is there a combat casting skill etc.  Any ideas would be helpful.

Emphasis mine. 

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I really hate the way you throw downvotes around...  😞  It makes me want to retaliate and that does not lead to a discursive evironment.

 

Anyway - just because the OP might assume a player holds an action and uses the gestures and incantations as a trigger does not mean it would work in any given game.  If he does so he would be unable to interrupt my wizard in his spellcasting.  If that is what he spent his points on, and our GM allowed that too, he might have questions for that GM.

 

D&D is designed such that spells are interruptable, it is the base condition in that game.  HERO is not designed such that spells are interruptable, it is not the base condition.  HERO might allow for that to be the base condition in a game but noone should build their character without checking with the GM how the magic system works and whether any assumptions made are correct.

 

Doc

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

I really hate the way you throw downvotes around...  😞  It makes me want to retaliate and that does not lead to a discursive evironment.

And I don't feel that deliberately refusing to engage with the topic the OP wants to discuss when they have a question on the grounds that there might be houserules or nonstandard methodologies when the OP suggests standard methodologies and mentions no houserules is constructive.  In fact, I think it's extremely rude to the OP and has no place in a thread where they're looking for rules answers. 

 

25 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

Anyway - just because the OP might assume a player holds an action and uses the gestures and incantations as a trigger does not mean it would work in any given game.  If he does so he would be unable to interrupt my wizard in his spellcasting.  If that is what he spent his points on, and our GM allowed that too, he might have questions for that GM.

Do you have a single iota of evidence that such is the case in OP's game, given their explicit mention of "gestures or incantations" as a trigger for an attack? 

 

27 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

HERO is not designed such that spells are interruptable, it is not the base condition. 

You might want to reread some Fantasy Hero books, because Gestures and/or Incantations is in fact the base condition. 

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36 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

Do you have a single iota of evidence that such is the case in OP's game, given their explicit mention of "gestures or incantations" as a trigger for an attack?

 

No more evidence than you have that any such game reliably utilises interruptable magic. 

 

Not going to engage further, you might be only the second person I block in a couple of decades on the boards. 

 

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4 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

So I have built myself a Fantasy Hero character and, with permission from the GM, have an instinctive magician, small VPP that allows me to hurry spells, dispense with gestures, with concentration or any other element as desired.

 

What would Gandalph's character do to interrupt my spellcasting?  Anything guaranteed to work RAW? 

 

All Duke has said is that it might be different in every game and there may be some games in which you cannot interrupt spellcasting.

 

Doc

Doc I was pointing out that GB(!) was pointing out how to interrupt a spell that hadn’t taken any other limitations. Duke on the other hand said that a GM might declare x,y &z to interrupt a spell. Now the GM has the right to do so. No argument. I was pointing out that unless otherwise noted questions are answered by RAW. GB (!) just did that.

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22 hours ago, Gandalf970 said:

How does interrupting spell casting look in Fantasy Hero.  I assume a player holds an action and uses the gestures or incantations as a trigger.  Does the spell caster automatically lose the spell if hit, is there a combat casting skill etc.  Any ideas would be helpful.

 

To me, the question was "Will holding an action to target anyone who gestures or incants allow the character to reliably interrupt spellcasting?"

 

The answer is "maybe".  It depends on the spellcaster, which depends in part on the magic system.  If gestures and incantations are not required limitations, then the answer is "no, it will only interrupt spells which have taken one of those limitations voluntarily".  Waiting for someone to mumble "Unga Bunga" will be useless if magic in the game is entirely cast by sheer force of will, with no visible or audible cues, or if Magic requires lengthy preparations to slot in a few spells which can then be cast instantly at a later point in time.

 

GB(I), your RAW is only relevant IF the power requires Gestures or Incantations.  Perhaps, in our game, the character requires a magical wand to cast spells, but need neither Gesture nor Incant.  So you Hold an action, the opponent brandishes his Wand, you win the opposing DEX roll (no guarantee of that), hit him (again,  not guaranteed) and get 12 STUN and 3 BOD past his defenses, and hurl him violently to the floor.  And he points his Want at you, and suddenly...you are a toad.  He had a 15 CON, so he was not Stunned, and nothing you did prevented use of his Focus.  Maybe you should have used a Disarm instead of a Takedown...

 

 

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To the question of downvotes, I agree they are unhelpful.  All we really see is that one poster prefers to "award" negative, rather than positive, feedback. 

 

Much like the social contract can differ between gaming groups, it also differs between Internet groups.  I don't think the social norm on these Boards is frequent use of downvotes.  In fact, I cannot think of any other poster who uses them at all, much less routinely.  I don't care much, as a downvote doesn't really mean anything, especially in the context of these Boards where their lack of usage makes them meaningless even as "feedback".

 

At one time, the Boards had negative and positive REP, and negative REP caused enough issues to be switched off by the Boards' admin.  It would not bother me at all to see downvotes similarly deleted, if that is an option in the SW.

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