Champions Adventures Reboot

[Duke Bushido]

Wait!

 

You mean that you're going to update Escape from Stronghold, _and_ include an escape?  From Stonghold?

 

I don't know, Christopher...

 

It's got to be pretty hard to do.  I mean, the original guys missed it completely....

 

 

 

[Terminax]

More into original content myself. Classic adventures are mostly available at the store already, don't need retreads.

[steriaca]

1 hour ago, Terminax said:

More into original content myself. Classic adventures are mostly available at the store already, don't need retreads.

Basically go new or go home.

[BoloOfEarth]

14 hours ago, Terminax said:

More into original content myself. Classic adventures are mostly available at the store already, don't need retreads.

 

Though I can see the argument that classic adventures, especially those for 1E through 3E, aren't really usable as-is for anybody using 5E or 6E/CC.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Since these adventures are from 40 years ago and have been out of print for decades, plus they are for the very first editions (as Bolo notes) and are very simple, rebooting them not only makes them available to a whole new audience, but can recreate them to a standard modern players are looking for.  Some of these adventures are extremely difficult to find now.  I'm fine with new stuff too, but the response to rebooting The Island of Dr Destroyer proves that there's a fairly significant market out there for reboots.

[Duke Bushido]

18 hours ago, steriaca said:

Basically go new or go home.

 

People who say things like that are, by several orders of magnitude, underestimating my willingness to go home.  I mean, its where all my family and my posessions are, amd it is where I have sunk the biggest part of my income over the years.  There is nowhere more in harmony with my spirit or soothing to my soul.

 

 

 

as for Christopher updating old stuff, I think its a good thing.  New 6e GMs (if any inexperienced gamers decided to pick up the gake with two college text books or rules and two more worth of additional material scattered across several thinner volumes) may not be able to intuituvely update older material, or know how to work in some interesting angles using some1 1of the newer rules since the original book was published.

 

besides, if Christopher's Isle of Dr. D was anything to go by, there will be fresh new stuff woven in.  If you havent read it, I recommend it to you just for the new stuff and the radical switch in feel from "spandex commandos" to "superheroes."

 

 

[archer]

 There's nostalgia value in updating old stuff, there's people who don't have access to the old stuff, and there's people who have access to the old stuff but don't have the time or skill to update it for a play session themselves.

 

I'd prefer that new stuff be written since I like pretending my favorite game system is still alive and well. And it's more fun to read about new things.

 

But I assume that "people who have no disposable income and thus can't buy a product no matter how awesome it is" will never be an author's target audience. So what I like doesn't matter except as a matter of curiosity.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Since what passes for an adventure in Escape from Stronghold is so minimal, it will basically be a new adventure in any case.  So you get the best of both worlds.  From the next adventure on (Deathstroke) they're more complete adventures and I might not touch those as reboots.

The thing is, from a business standpoint, Island of Dr Destroyer sold the best of all the stuff I've put out so far, so the demand exists at least for the present.

 

That was especially gratifying as I only did it as an emergency product when Western Hero was delayed so long, just to get something out last year.

[Terminax]

Checking the store, nearly every classic module is right there. So not out of print or unavailable.

 

I'm going to reiterate this more precisely as a person who already owns the originals and can easily update the stats in Hero Designer in 10 minutes that this is not a product for me and I will not be buying it for those reasons. For my purposes, new content is something I'm willing to pay for.

 

In saying that, I'm not arguing against retreads or their value to other people. Nor is it criticism of Christopher R. Taylor or anyone else for that matter. So please don't misconstrue my comments, thank you!

 

[Scott Ruggels]

What is funny was at the time 40 years ago, I was a professional player, never a GM, so I never bought the adventures. Equipment books, and extra rules, but the adventures were GM territory.  I might buy them now, though I don’t do 6th edition.  

[Spence]

I tend to buy adventures of either flavor. 

 

Now the biggest way to get me to hand you my money is to include maps that are high definition enough to blow up and print. 

Maps Maps Maps maps maps and maps.

 

That said, for old adventures that are updated.  If the rewrite expands the adventure and includes updated MAPS then I guarantee you I will buy it.

 

I pretty much will buy any superhero adventure that is put out even if I can't use it.   Many supers adventures are too specific to be easily inserted into on going campaigns or worlds.   I (as opposed to we) don't need a master villain or earth threatening plan.  I already have the Big Bad and their dastardly objective.  What I  need is the stuff in between.  Adventure lines that help the heroes gain experience needed so they can fight the Big Bad.  A multi adventure smuggling conspiracy or a multi adventure drug ring.  All designed to be dropped into and run along side of the existing campaign.

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

What I  need is the stuff in between.  Adventure lines that help the heroes gain experience needed so they can fight the Big Bad.  A multi adventure smuggling conspiracy or a multi adventure drug ring.  All designed to be dropped into and run along side of the existing campaign.

 

Yeah I am fond of that kind of thing too.  I can understand having the one big adventure module be some major event but collections like Challenges for Champions et al are great because they give you stuff to do for most of your campaign.  An ongoing campaign is more a regular comic book or TV series.  A big adventure event like Deathstroke is a movie or special event comic, an annual.  They're both good but as a GM we need more of the little adventures to run in between than the big events.

[Spence]

41 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

They're both good but as a GM we need more of the little adventures to run in between than the big events.

Exactly

[steriaca]

Another good thing for such adventures to have are villains which can fit into many campaigns. With some text boxes about adapting them to different styles of campaigns. 

[Jhamin]

On 5/31/2021 at 6:36 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

OK I am looking at trying to rebuild and reboot Escape From Stronghold for this year, along with work on my Fantasy setting.  I'll give it my best shot to make it as fresh and useful as possible, which was pretty easy with Island of Dr Destroyer because it was so old and simple in structure.  And yes, I have an actual plot for an escape to take place, one I ran as a CON game once.

It probably dilutes what you are doing, but the Murder in Stronghold adventure from Champions Presents 2 would be an awesome add.  Masquerade is basically a direct 6th edition replacement for Proteus.

But I'm probably biased because that was such a well-liked adventure by my players back in the day.

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I'll take a look at that, see if it can't be worked in somehow.  Depending how much time I have and interest, it might be worth putting out a book of more short adventures revolving around Stronghold.

[steriaca]

Here are some adventure ideas. 

 

1) The King Of Stronghold: A criminal with superpowers is still running his organization from inside Stronghold. Can you find a way to stop it?

 

2) The Stronghold Experment: A mad scientist gains access to criminals for inhuman experiments. When supervillains with enhanced powers start being released, can the hero find out who and end the experiments?

 

3) The Rat: A hit has been given on the minor villain The Rat. The heroes must protect The Rat from the inside. 

 

4) The Stronghold-Raser (name pending): A DEMON Morbain uses an religious rite and a strange object to summon his gods to Stronghold.

[Spence]

One thing that I have noticed that I personally consider on the "not good" side of the meter is when adventures seem to always introduce "new" villains.  For me it is a bad thing mostly because I prefer to run in and play in worlds with low numbers of supers completely ignoring "real world" politics and legal mishmash.  If I wanted lawyers and political intrigue for fun I'll just turn on the TV. 

 

I'd rather see adventures that use existing supervillains with notation and advice on how to slot your own villains into the adventure.  For instance I create an adventure and center it around the Ultimates (Binder, Blackstar, Cyclone, Radium, Slick, Thunderbolt I) and Binder has a plot to take over the City.  Creating the adventure will be work on its own, but how do you handle the Ultimates?  If you tell the customer that they need to buy Conquerers, Killers and Crooks in order to play the adventure, many will consider the product incomplete and not buy.  Which means you will need to put the Ultimates into the adventure, so you need to get permission.  And then how much of them can you put in?  It quickly devolves into many many questions. 

 

In my opinion using existing villains in adventures serves to give people a reason to buy Champions Universe products and play in that world.  Or at least their modified version of that world.

 

To me the biggest issue with old Hero was it was almost deliberately designed to turn away players from the CU.  There was very little product designed for people to actually roll dice and play in the CU.  Lot's of books about the big picture, virtually nothing for sitting down to play. 

 

People like Christopher R Taylor, who are actually putting out product (Not just CRT, but all of them) have really gotten me pumped up about doing something myself.   But I have discovered that putting together an adventure module has turned out to be far harder than writing a custom lesson plan on data bus maintenance and troubleshooting for new techs.  With a lesson plan I can just decide what I what to cover and what they need to know.   With an adventure I need to ensure it is flexible enough for the GM and players to play a written or completely go in another direction.  It needs to be easily adjusted for threat level.  It needs to be able to stand alone or be plugged into an ongoing campaign.

 

All that and the awareness I am probably running myself around in pointless circles . 

I mean we now have an open pathway, the Hall of Champions, and I still have not actually put anything out

Edited June 5, 2021 by Spence
Note: I am a 5thR kinda player

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

 

Creating the adventure will be work on its own, but how do you handle the Ultimates?  If you tell the customer that they need to buy Conquerers, Killers and Crooks in order to play the adventure, many will consider the product incomplete and not buy.

 

 

This was a concern for me when I put out Island of Dr Destroyer.  Jason gave me the go-ahead to reprint characters in other books, but I chose not to.  My reasoning was "maybe this will sell more Hero books" which is a real goal of mine.  I'm putting things out in an attempt to get more Champions being played, more Fantasy Hero, etc.  I feel that Hero seems dead because so little was coming out for it, and the more content on the shelf the better chance people will try it.

 

But at the same time, not having some of the bad guys in the book might upset buyers.  Yet again at the same time, D&D has never, ever shied away from putting out modules without the monsters printed up in them and nobody seems to care.

[Jhamin]

15 hours ago, steriaca said:

Here are some adventure ideas. 

 

1) The King Of Stronghold: A criminal with superpowers is still running his organization from inside Stronghold. Can you find a way to stop it?

 

2) The Stronghold Experment: A mad scientist gains access to criminals for inhuman experiments. When supervillains with enhanced powers start being released, can the hero find out who and end the experiments?

 

3) The Rat: A hit has been given on the minor villain The Rat. The heroes must protect The Rat from the inside. 

 

4) The Stronghold-Raser (name pending): A DEMON Morbain uses an religious rite and a strange object to summon his gods to Stronghold.

 

5) The new Warden of Stronghold is abusing the prisoners in the name of "keeping them in line".  The Villians actually try to reach out to the Heros for help.  (See the "Lockup" episode from Batman: TAS)

[Spence]

4 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

This was a concern for me when I put out Island of Dr Destroyer.  Jason gave me the go-ahead to reprint characters in other books, but I chose not to.  My reasoning was "maybe this will sell more Hero books" which is a real goal of mine.  I'm putting things out in an attempt to get more Champions being played, more Fantasy Hero, etc.  I feel that Hero seems dead because so little was coming out for it, and the more content on the shelf the better chance people will try it.

 

But at the same time, not having some of the bad guys in the book might upset buyers.  Yet again at the same time, D&D has never, ever shied away from putting out modules without the monsters printed up in them and nobody seems to care.

 

I see what your are saying, but there is marked difference in game content.  A person who is going to GM a game of D&D, can't do it without owning the Players Handbook and Monster Manual.  You can get away with never buying a Dungeon Masters Guide, but most people that run will buy it.  The PHB, MM and DMG are widely considered the minimum "core" books needed.  So leaving out of an adventure module the creatures/monsters that everyone already has a copy of won't cause waves.  Leaving out key NPC's, Monsters and Villains will break it. 

 

But Hero by design has no centrally required NPC, Creature, Monster, Villain book required just to play.  D&D gives you stat'd monsters and creatures but never gives you the behind the scenes "rules" that they use to create and balance monsters.   For Hero the GM and players create them all as they go.  Or they can buy extra books where someone else did the drudgery of the builds.

 

The point is that games like D&D requires the DM's to buy the book that contains most of the monsters needed to play the game.  So an adventure only has to refer to that manual because the DM will already have it.  A Hero game adventure designer cannot assume that the buyer will have more than the core rulebook. 

 

For a superhero game, a espionage game, or pretty much any game that relies on a relatively small cast of antagonists all of which have detailed roles to play, they have to include them and the associated details.  

 

Cranking out a D&D adventure is easy barely requiring thought.   Sketch out a plot/storyline (the hardest part) and then just plug creatures with the appropriate CR. Done.

A Fantasy Hero Adventure is much harder and almost requires you include not just all the encounters, but pre-gen player characters as well.  If not to play, then to allow the GM to gauge the parties needed strength.  Because Hero has no established method to determine just what is what PC power-wise.  D&D has Levels.  FH has nothing.  Every GM establishes their own limits and caps.

MY idea of a starting point for PC's may be built on far more points than your multi-campaign veteran.  Or the reverse.  The very core concept of Hero as a tool kit ensures that if you compare FH campaigns from people in four different states they will all have different build limits.   I have seen games where one persons "Goblin" was more deadly than anothers "Great Orc". 

 

/ramble

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

The Enemies books, I think, were meant to be the Monster Manuals for Champions to give people an instant plug and play universe with bad guys (plus modules) and it works pretty well.  Some of those villains are pretty iconic.  And there's the FH Bestiary, for example.  Those should work for GMs but I am not convinced they do. Part of it probably is the way Hero strongly encourages people to make their own world and bad guys that you mentioned.

 

This concept is why I am putting out all these Fantasy Hero campaign setting books for my setting: spells monsters treasures, etc.  But I'm looking at them all wondering if people really will want to spend that much to get all the books.  I'm pricing them as low as I can while making at least some money but still, its a lot to ask to play a game.

[steriaca]

Villains are important to a Champions adventure. We can't assume that they have assess to them if they don't have whatever book.

 

On the other hand, I do have an electronic version of Villain Volume 3. If I decided I don't want to replace the character, I can look in the volume. 

 

Unfortunately, not every new player has assess to that book. The current standard is Champions Complete. 

 

And I find it easier to search for things in a dead tree edition.

[Duke Bushido]

53 minutes ago, Spence said:

D&D gives you stat'd monsters and creatures but never gives you the behind the scenes "rules" that they use to ...[  ]... balance monsters.  

 

    

 

HAHAhahahahhaahaa!!!

 

Oh, God!  D&D!  Balance monsters!

 

Dude, you had me there!  For a minute, I thought you were serious....     

 

 

 

 

53 minutes ago, Spence said:

A Hero game adventure designer cannot assume that the buyer will have more than the core rulebook. 

 

There are so many edges to this sword that is has spikes. 

 

First, with 6e, you'd better assume he has at least two, because those two are the core "book."

 

And in this fandom, you can't really ask for help, because you will invariably be pointed to six other "core books" that folks either think you already have or think that you should.

 

5e wasn't that bad; there were only three "core books," in spite of all the rules being in one.  If you didn't have "the combat handbook," then you didn't have what the fandom decided was critical essential rules; don't dare play without it.  And of course, if you didn't have whatever it was that the character book was called, well then you really shouldn't be trusted to make a character.  Again, it's not accurate, but it's the impression the fandom tends to give anyone asking for help:  "I really need a bit of help parsing the specific meaning of these five hundred pages of rules."

 

Ah; well, that's because you didn't read _these_ four hundred pages of rules.  Read that,  and it will make more sense.  What?  That, too?  No; that's in those four hundred pages of rules over there; sorry.

 

 

To be fair: Yes; I have those books; yes I have read them.  But I am also perfectly willing to accept that they are not required, and that products tailored just to the one (or two, for 6e) rules books, and answering questions by referring only to things pulled from the one rulebook is not just acceptable, but ideal.

 

And then we hit that "monsters and murderers" problem:

 

Since we, as fans, expect them to have eleven hundred pages of rules, should we not refer the possible customer to appropriate parts of them?  Encourage them to buy them?  

 

Eh.

 

Yes; it's good for the company in terms of "hey!  They might want to know that this product exists!"

 

It's also bad for the company in terms of "Good God!  _Another_ three hundred pages of book?"

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh-- sorry; no one....  no one was expecting a perfect answer, were they?  I mean, _I_ certainly don't have one.....    I can say this, though: when I write up adventures or vignettes or scenario compilations, I make it an absolute point that when I am providing details or specifics, any questions that may arise are easily answered by the _one_ "actual rulesbook," just because it seems like the right thing to do.  Sure; I'd like them to buy the other stuff, too (side-track:  I tend to write short stuff for a couple of my players who run their own groups, when they ask.  Sorry for any confusion that lack of information may have caused), but I am not going to stack the deck against them using what they have on hand.  My own perspective is that if it is going to market itself as a complete system, then it really has to be all you will need.  If something is ambiguous or open to interpretation in the rules, I don't try to answer it; I simply write with my own interpretation of it in mind, as assume that anyone else reading the rules and the scenario are intelligent enough to have drawn their own interpretation, and change it if they disagree.  Or they can come to a resource like this to get pointed toward additional material (though I do try to mention things like "options can be found in Book X", etc).

 

Same with monsters and villains: if I have someone in mind from some published work, I will state "designed with the idea of Character X, from Book Z," but I also tend to include an "optional character" in a "complete-enough" write up, along with strong encouragement for the GM to substitute an NPC of his own.

 

Like I said: I don't have a good answer for a very real elephant in the room, but I am not going to pretend the elephant isn't there.  That's my own answer, but honestly: selling a book that says "Buy also" isn't the best option, and writing adventures that say "intended for X, but you can use Y (partially included), and feel free to take an hour to build your own Z, and here is a list of options for scaling power up and down for X and Y and some suggestions for fine-tuning your customized Z" isn't a good answer, either.  You could easily double the size of the book!

 

 

 

 

Well great.  I've made myself sad.   

 

 

 

 

53 minutes ago, Spence said:

 

For a superhero game, a espionage game, or pretty much any game that relies on a relatively small cast of antagonists all of which have detailed roles to play, they have to include them and the associated details. 

 

Here's something that works disturbingly well for non-supers games:

 

Write up one character-- agent, informant, whatever.    Get a few other character sheets out.  Roll D4 for each characteristic.  On a 1, subtract 2 from the value of that characteristic and record it on the next guy's sheet.  On a 2, add 1.  On a three, re-roll and go "plus one."  IE, if your next roll is a 2, then subtract 3.  (SPD should only ever go up or down by 1)

 

 

Create a list of six-to-ten skills a person in that category should have.  Roll a d6 (or 2d6, if you want a really skilled operative) to see how many that character has.  Roll a D-however-many-entries-you-have-on-your-list to determine their skills.  Multiples make that skill better.

 

You can knock out an army of agents in ten minutes or less.

 

 

"Oh no!  That's terrible!  That would never work!  They will never been seen as individuals!"

 

That's totally incorrect.  It's worked for me since the late 80s, and I don't think I have ever had a player catch on, to this day.  Making them individuals isn't about their character sheets; it's about role-playing.  That's on you, as the GM.

 

Mooks are even easier: all you have to change in their SPD and CV, because that's all your players ever actually notice anyway.

 

 

 

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

The thing is, to play Champions in 6th edition, all you need is Champions Complete.  That's it. Period.  No three books, no extra splat books, just CC.  As a GM you will probably want the three villain books, but you can make your own.  Getting CC and a villain book or three is not exactly asking a lot; its certainly less than D&D in cost, you don't even need to get special dice.

 

So the whole "OMG LOOK AT THOSE HUGE BOOKS FOR 75 EACH!!1!1!" is just... not accurate or up to date at all.