Reboot the CU Uuniverse, WWYD?

[Lord Liaden]

4 hours ago, ScottishFox said:

 

Erm...  That seems impossibly high.  Unless she's built to intentionally waste points is she throwing around 50d6 AoEs?

 

PS - Is there a free way to see the writeup?

 

The Algernon Files character write-ups are often inflated in points even by Fifth Edition DOJ standards. But they frequently include lots of Skills, Perks, and Talents, including things like Followers and Bases that CU high-enders often hand-waive. But Serpent Queen's human form (which has most of her magical abilities) includes a 360-point Multipower, with several 20D6 AOE attacks at 0 END.

 

I'm afraid I don't know where you could view this for free, at least not legally.

[steriaca]

44 minutes ago, archer said:

If DD hasn't spouted "I'm a Nazi" for the last 75 years or openly supported their ideology but has played up the "I'm an unabashed supervillain" angle consistently, I'm willing to play him off in the public's view as an unabashed supervillain (who the geeks know has roots in Nazi Germany but most everyone else is only vaguely aware, if that).

There is one problem with that. The bad Doctor has books written about him. And his Nazi past. His identity is public knowledge after all.

[archer]

6 minutes ago, steriaca said:

There is one problem with that. The bad Doctor has books written about him. And his Nazi past. His identity is public knowledge after all.

 

This is 2020. 

 

You think the public still reads books?  

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

The Algernon Files character write-ups are often inflated in points even by Fifth Edition DOJ standards. But they frequently include lots of Skills, Perks, and Talents, including things like Followers and Bases that CU high-enders often hand-waive. But Serpent Queen's human form (which has most of her magical abilities) includes a 360-point Multipower, with several 20D6 AOE attacks at 0 END.

What in the world is the expected use case for these characters? 

[Lord Liaden]

Our long-missing forum colleague, Lord Mhoram, posted here years ago that he pitted Doctor Destroyer as written in Conquerors, Killers, And Crooks not long after it came out, against his team of veteran Justice League-level PCs, and that they killed him -- killed him -- in two Turns of combat.

 

There are Champions campaigns at a level where such opponents are appropriate. I've played in and run some myself.

[segerge]

2 hours ago, steriaca said:

There is one problem with that. The bad Doctor has books written about him. And his Nazi past. His identity is public knowledge after all.

 

If you have the 4e module "Day of the Destroyer," you'll understand what Lord Liaden has been attempting to say about Doctor Destroyer.  DD actually considers himself above National Socialism (Nazis), and is impressed by the ability of Jews to survive in the face of directed genocide against them -- multiple times in human history, dating back millenium.  That's in his introductory interview with Bob Richards in that module (replicated in the first part of the TASK FORCE story "72 Hours").

 

If it helps, he exploited the Nazis in WW2 to further his own ends without believing in their ideology.  You want an actual Nazi in your campaign, run Baron Nihil instead.

[steriaca]

33 minutes ago, segerge said:

 

If you have the 4e module "Day of the Destroyer," you'll understand what Lord Liaden has been attempting to say about Doctor Destroyer.  DD actually considers himself above National Socialism (Nazis), and is impressed by the ability of Jews to survive in the face of directed genocide against them -- multiple times in human history, dating back millenium.  That's in his introductory interview with Bob Richards in that module (replicated in the first part of the TASK FORCE story "72 Hours").

 

If it helps, he exploited the Nazis in WW2 to further his own ends without believing in their ideology.  You want an actual Nazi in your campaign, run Baron Nihil instead.

I understand that. But most of the world sees "Nazi Party Member" and "scientist" and thinks the worse. For the majority of people, it doesn't matter if he believes in the ideology or not. He could of saved them with his science and did not.

 

Even if he wasn't a party member, that would mean nothing to the masses.

 

The majority of the people in the Champions Universe knows that he does reject the Nazi Philosophy, only to embrace something some people think are worse. (Again, they don't know nor care that he only paid lip service to it.)

 

Again, Baron Nihil is a true Nazi (Maybe also Dutchess Henerita VonDottie also, as she was with Germany with her husband during the war). It is something to think about in a Golden Age of Champions campaign...is it worse to believe in the Nazi Philosophy or not believe and do nothing?

[Lord Liaden]

I would say that Albert Zerstoiten is even worse than the Nazis. He didn't just stand by as they committed atrocities. He committed them himself, willingly, and continues to, but from belief in nothing but himself and his right to do whatever he wants.

 

There's another profound difference between Doctor Destroyer and Doctor Doom: Doom follows a code of honor. Destroyer is a treacherous, vindictive, sadistic back-stabber who'll break his word and betray any allies the moment it's to his advantage. One can admire his accomplishments, but as a person he's a waste of skin.

[steriaca]

1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

I would say that Albert Zerstoiten is even worse than the Nazis. He didn't just stand by as they committed atrocities. He committed them himself, willingly, and continues to, but from belief in nothing but himself and his right to do whatever he wants.

 

There's another profound difference between Doctor Destroyer and Doctor Doom: Doom follows a code of honor. Destroyer is a treacherous, vindictive, sadistic back-stabber who'll break his word and betray any allies the moment it's to his advantage. One can admire his accomplishments, but as a person he's a waste of skin.

Let's face it. He's a villain. There are various types.  And he is the worse. NOT one of the worse. THE Worst. No honor. No morals. Only science for himself and to extend his life or other personal benefit. 

[Ninja-Bear]

2 hours ago, steriaca said:

Let's face it. He's a villain. There are various types.  And he is the worse. NOT one of the worse. THE Worst. No honor. No morals. Only science for himself and to extend his life or other personal benefit. 

Nah he ain’t a villain. Remember if Man can make morality then morality is subjective. Right and Wrong are subjective.  All DD is doing is following Darwin’s Theory of Evolution. 

[Black Ops]

Personally I think the fixed timeline needs to go.

It sort of killed the 5th for me

 

[Sketchpad]

While I run my own universe these days, if I were to reboot the Champions Universe, I would tackle some of the following:

• The Guardians: I would try and license them back into the CU as the predecessors of The Champions. Some of them may even still be active.
• The Champions: Sure, they're a sample group, but I'd give them history that takes the 4th ed group as the original members, through to the 6th ed group, who currently hold the title. In all honesty, I would also make a "Crisis at Homestead" style of module that could make the PCs the next heroes to take on the team name. 
• Villains: I'd update some of the villains, and bring a few more back from obscurity with some changes. Deathstroke would be back as the "anti-Champions" team, Doc Destroyer might have his "Kristoff Moment" where someone's become his successor for a short time. I would retire the Tree Monster / Elder Thing for something else. Genocide would return and I'd ditch the IHA. Demon would change pretty significantly, as would Viper.
• Magic Root: Never like the whole Magic is the root of power shtick. I would drop it in favor of more variable explanations. 
• Cities: I would keep the cities, but change some things up within them. Personally, I didn't find them as "living" as they should be.

[Lord Liaden]

9 hours ago, segerge said:

 

If you have the 4e module "Day of the Destroyer," you'll understand what Lord Liaden has been attempting to say about Doctor Destroyer.  DD actually considers himself above National Socialism (Nazis), and is impressed by the ability of Jews to survive in the face of directed genocide against them -- multiple times in human history, dating back millenium.  That's in his introductory interview with Bob Richards in that module (replicated in the first part of the TASK FORCE story "72 Hours").

 

If it helps, he exploited the Nazis in WW2 to further his own ends without believing in their ideology.  You want an actual Nazi in your campaign, run Baron Nihil instead.

 

DD's "historical" texts in Golden Age Champions say essentially the same thing. And modern-day Champions Earth also has a true Nazi, Panzer (Champions Worldwide), a powered-armor villain based in Germany, but with ties to white supremacist groups around the world. I always figured he and Baron Nihil (Champions Villains Volume One) would make splendid allies.

[Scott Ruggels]

I'd probably say that  previous History has occurred. continue forward. Milenium City was founded 20 years ago in the ruins of Detroit. Dr. Destroyer ist todt, so stop talking about him 😁.  I'd n up and convert as many of the villains (and Allies) as is possible, add some new ones. i'd rather not see CU history put through "The New 52". or some other current year bull.

[specks]

I have a plot seed concerning Destroyer changing to a female:

 

The Doctor realizes the armor can longer sustain him, his body's DNA is becoming unstable and must use other methods to survive. Through research he finds a way to digitally download his brain to another body with similar physiology. The one he seems to find that is almost identical is an upcoming model/actress named Wendy Allen with no close family ties. He clones Wendy and transfers his memories into the new body.

 

He destroys both his original body and stores the "actress" memories on file in case of necessity like inquiring fans or paparazzi.

 

"Wendy Allen" is becoming a major superstar thanks to the use of digital suggestion (and natural beauty) to make him/her an icon in the acting world. The Doctor is using this a possible stepping stone for control of the entertainment industry and manipulate the minds of a new generation of movie goers to eventual global control.

[Jhamin]

On 7/28/2020 at 3:56 AM, Black Ops said:

Personally I think the fixed timeline needs to go.

It sort of killed the 5th for me

 

 

I really like this as well.  6th Edition has lots of specific years mentioned throughout various character backgrounds and attached to big events.  Which gets weird when the Enemies books were all printed 12 years ago.

[Michael Hopcroft]

The New Millennium may be much derided, but there was one good idea: Team Defender. Rather than making Defender a simple Iron Man-light, have the hero be a group project, with one guy in the suit, but a group design with the other members of the group feeding the guy in the suit (using "guy" as a unisex term -- there's no reason for all the support people, or ever the wearer of the suit, has to be male) information and advice. They could even take turns in the suit, as all would know how to operate it. It would be a secret, possibly even from the other Champions, which could be both interesting and problematic.

 

I too would think about moving the setting out of Millennium City. The idea of building a shining metropolis over the ruins of a nuked Detroit borders on the tasteless. If you're going to have fictional cities, have them always having been there; "the Millennium City" would be a nickname for some city where advanced technology is concentrated because of the presence of a super-lab where cutting-edge research is being done all the time.

 

 

[Scott Ruggels]

I would avoid fictitious cities. Google maps exists, and there are tutorials on how to turn them into scaled game maps, fairly easily.  On the otherhand, I would not put much specificity in locations so it's easy to place things in any major city without too much trouble (Unless the city is landlocked?).

[Lord Liaden]

4 hours ago, Michael Hopcroft said:

I too would think about moving the setting out of Millennium City. The idea of building a shining metropolis over the ruins of a nuked Detroit borders on the tasteless.

 

You mean, like Hiroshima?

 

Building the new on the ashes of the old can be a great symbol of determination and hope. It's also been the story of urbanization since civilization began. There are many cities destroyed a dozen times and then rebuilt, in ascending layers like Russian dolls, stretching back millennia.

[Michael Hopcroft]

15 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

You mean, like Hiroshima?

 

Building the new on the ashes of the old can be a great symbol of determination and hope. It's also been the story of urbanization since civilization began. There are many cities destroyed a dozen times and then rebuilt, in ascending layers like Russian dolls, stretching back millennia.

The tasteless thing, to my mind, is nuking the city in the first place -- especially Detroit.

[Greywind]

1 hour ago, Michael Hopcroft said:

The tasteless thing, to my mind, is nuking the city in the first place -- especially Detroit.

 

Have you been to Detroit?

[DShomshak]

MM, I think it's the juxtaposition of the real Detroit and the fictional Millennium City that's jarring.

 

Having a megavillain really, truly destroy a city is a good design choice, as a way to show the stakes of the heroes' conflicts. Superworlds risk becoming jokes a la the comic book DESTROY! in which a hero and villain level a city in their battle, and at the end someone comments, "At least nobody got hurt..." But having it be a real city is not such a good choice, if only because GMs might want to se Detroit for other purposes. (And while Detroit certainly has more than its share of problems, it's not such a pit that pff, so what, it's no loss, just blow it up.) DOJ could just as easily posited a fictional Midwestern city sunk deep in Rust Belt decrepitude, and blown it up to make way for Millennium City.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Greywind]

Almost all fictional superhero worlds' cities have real-life counterparts. It only makes sense that somewhere along the line that one of those counterparts would be destroyed.

[Lord Liaden]

But Detroit isn't gone. It came back, only better.

 

I keep thinking of Hiroshima. And the World Trade Center. If a destroyed and rebuilt Detroit is tasteless, aren't those sites as well?

 

I've read more than one poster's fondness for Bay City, from the Champions: New Millennium setting. But that was rebuilt out of the destruction of San Francisco, Oakland, et al. So it's hardly a new concept for Champions, or original to DOJ.

[Lord Liaden]

But in the spirit of full disclosure, for my own past campaign I "what iffed" Haynesville, Kansas, changing its timeline so it grew into a major city, and it was that city which Dr. Destroyer leveled, and which was rebuilt as MC. I liked the idea of a metropolis in America's heartland -- maybe some unconscious Smallville influence? Besides, DD's asteroid scheme to devastate the entire United States seemed more logical if it targeted the center of the contiguous US.