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Astromath

Usable as 2nd form of movement (6E)

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My wife wants to build a lightning based character.  Teleportation over wires is one form of movement, but she also wants to fly.  I'm thinking either Teleportation Usable As Flight; or Flight Usable As Teleportation (both have the 1m = 1m, so it doesn't matter which the UA2nM is on).  My question is which way would be better represented.  It also would look like that Usable As 2nd Form Of Movement would be a Naked Advantage due the nature of what she wants.  Opinions?

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1 hour ago, Astromath said:

My wife wants to build a lightning based character.  Teleportation over wires is one form of movement, but she also wants to fly.  I'm thinking either Teleportation Usable As Flight; or Flight Usable As Teleportation (both have the 1m = 1m, so it doesn't matter which the UA2nM is on).  My question is which way would be better represented.  It also would look like that Usable As 2nd Form Of Movement would be a Naked Advantage due the nature of what she wants.  Opinions?

Is the T-port limited to the wires? If so then I’d suggest Buying Flight with the advantage of T-port 2nd Form of movement. Figure this as a Naked Advantage then put on a -1/4 limitation on that value - Only along wires. 

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Wiretripping, huh?  She wouldn't by chance be trying to do Liz Masters, would she?

 

I'd buy it as 2 separate powers simply because the teleport would be cheap...because it'd be a minimal number of base inches and a LOT of MegaScale.  4" with 1m = 1,000 km is only 7 points.  That's before the wiretripping limitation.

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15 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Wiretripping, huh?  She wouldn't by chance be trying to do Liz Masters, would she?

 

I'd buy it as 2 separate powers simply because the teleport would be cheap...because it'd be a minimal number of base inches and a LOT of MegaScale.  4" with 1m = 1,000 km is only 7 points.  That's before the wiretripping limitation.

The whole idea of the advantage is so the character doesn’t have to invest allot of points to replicate a movement power. You know the stunt where Superman “flies” through the water?

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15 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Wiretripping, huh?  She wouldn't by chance be trying to do Liz Masters, would she?

 

I'd buy it as 2 separate powers simply because the teleport would be cheap...because it'd be a minimal number of base inches and a LOT of MegaScale.  4" with 1m = 1,000 km is only 7 points.  That's before the wiretripping limitation.

I've never heard of Liz Masters.  Who is she?  My wife had a lightning character back in the 3rd edition days called Johnny B. Goode (which is from Misfits of Science tv show).

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1 hour ago, Ninja-Bear said:

The whole idea of the advantage is so the character doesn’t have to invest allot of points to replicate a movement power. You know the stunt where Superman “flies” through the water?

 

Sure, but that doesn't work *here*.  The two are going to be bought completely differently.  The Flight is gonna be, what, 20m, with x4 NC and maybe Reduced END?  Something like that.  The Teleport is gonna be maybe 5" with Safe Blind Teleport and MegaScale 1m = 10 km for city-wide range, up to 1m = 1,000 km for pretty much country-wide range.

 

If you want to worry about the costing, as was pointed out...slap it into a Multi.  You're only paying for the slot.  This is fine as long as the Flight isn't going to be particularly limited...cuz if so, then it might be cheaper to buy them separately.

 

Usable As is a nice advantage when you want to combine Flight with either Running or Swimming.  The Swimming is the blatantly obvious use case;  I think the whole "flying through water" is why it was included.  Running means no turn mode, and less knockback...AND, now you can buy back all your base Running as part of the package.  So if you're going with, let's say, 


Flight 24", x8 NC, Usable as Running.  24 + 10 -> 34, +1/4 Advantage is 42...so probably Reduced END.  34 with +1/2 is now 51.  NOW knock off 12...39.  Combat costs 1 END per, non-combat costs 2.

Flight 24", x8 NC is 34, with combat movement costing 2 END per, and non-combat costing 3 END per.  If you want to put the Reduced END, you're at 42.  

 

There can be other issues, to be sure.  If the Flight is gonna be OIAID, then you probably can't buy back the base Running.

 

But it's tricky to put a continuous-move power (flight, swim, run) with an incremental-move power (leap, teleport) via Usable As.  They generally just aren't congruent.

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3 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

The whole idea of the advantage is so the character doesn’t have to invest allot of points to replicate a movement power. You know the stunt where Superman “flies” through the water?

 

So, 40m Flight usable as Teleportation (40 x 1.25 = 50 points) saves a lot of points compared to

 

40 point Multipower with 2 fixed slots of Flight and Teleport, costing 4 points each?

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On 7/25/2020 at 1:32 PM, Hugh Neilson said:

 

So, 40m Flight usable as Teleportation (40 x 1.25 = 50 points) saves a lot of points compared to

 

40 point Multipower with 2 fixed slots of Flight and Teleport, costing 4 points each?

 

Actually, a slot costing 4 points (for the Flight) and a slot costing probably 3 points (for the Teleport, with limitation "Only Along Wires" (-1/2 according to Champions Powers)), to be precise.  So a savings of 5 points, and you can make the Teleport as Megascale.  Or have two Teleport slots (one Megascale, one not), and still save 2 points over the Flight Usable as Teleportation.

 

Personally, I'd spend the extra points on Fixed Locations scattered across the campaign city, so you don't have to guesstimate where you're going all the time and sometimes end up in an embarrassing or dangerous place.  (Hey, "Safe Blind Teleport" only keeps you from teleporting into something solid.  It doesn't stop you from accidentally teleporting into the women's bathroom at the grocery store or the mess hall in the local VIPER Nest.) 

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Yeah, but those extra points for the fixed locations add up.  The cheapest way for large numbers is to buy 5...then double the number a few times, for 5 points per doubling.  But 40 spots is still 20 points, and there's VERY little you can do to reduce this.  It can't logically go into a VPP or MP (drop the points from the slot, the power never exists...you should NOT keep the known spots when you reactivate the power, IMO) and it's very hard to limit.

 

And figure that 80 fixed locations would, for example, let you make a 9x9 grid.  Say the area you want to cover is 9 km by 9 km.  Your arrival points are separated by a full kilometer, and you can easily have to move several hundred meters to get where you need to be...and that's still figuring out VERY quickly, which is the closest?  It wouldn't be hard to be slightly off and have a full km...if not more...to traverse.

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On 7/28/2020 at 9:19 PM, unclevlad said:

Yeah, but those extra points for the fixed locations add up.  The cheapest way for large numbers is to buy 5...then double the number a few times, for 5 points per doubling.  But 40 spots is still 20 points, and there's VERY little you can do to reduce this.  It can't logically go into a VPP or MP (drop the points from the slot, the power never exists...you should NOT keep the known spots when you reactivate the power, IMO) and it's very hard to limit.

 

And figure that 80 fixed locations would, for example, let you make a 9x9 grid.  Say the area you want to cover is 9 km by 9 km.  Your arrival points are separated by a full kilometer, and you can easily have to move several hundred meters to get where you need to be...and that's still figuring out VERY quickly, which is the closest?  It wouldn't be hard to be slightly off and have a full km...if not more...to traverse.

 

I wasn't proposing putting Fixed Teleport Locations into a VPP or MP slot.  I figured you'd have a handful to put you in the general area (within a few km) and then use the flight and/or shorter teleports to make for more exact travel. 

 

Of course, if you're thinking to spend 20+ points on a lot of locations, you're probably better off with a Megascale Clairsentience to more accurately target your teleportation.  Given the electrical nature of the character in question, as a GM I'd allow a special Navigation skill (electrical grids) as a Required Skill for such a Megascale Clairsentience.  Let's see:  Clairsentience, Targeting, Megascale (1m = 1 km; +1); Only to perceive teleport locations (-1), Instant (-1/2), Required Skill Roll (-1/2) - that's 60 AP, 20 RP, plus say 5 points for the unique Navigation skill at INT roll +1.  That gives you a 300 km range, and as a GM I'd give the user a decent level of accuracy depending on how well they make the Navigation roll - probably not down to a specific room in a building, but at least to a building close enough that you could make a shorter, more accurate teleport to where you really want to go. 

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2 hours ago, BoloOfEarth said:

 

I wasn't proposing putting Fixed Teleport Locations into a VPP or MP slot.  I figured you'd have a handful to put you in the general area (within a few km) and then use the flight and/or shorter teleports to make for more exact travel. 

 

Of course, if you're thinking to spend 20+ points on a lot of locations, you're probably better off with a Megascale Clairsentience to more accurately target your teleportation.  Given the electrical nature of the character in question, as a GM I'd allow a special Navigation skill (electrical grids) as a Required Skill for such a Megascale Clairsentience.  Let's see:  Clairsentience, Targeting, Megascale (1m = 1 km; +1); Only to perceive teleport locations (-1), Instant (-1/2), Required Skill Roll (-1/2) - that's 60 AP, 20 RP, plus say 5 points for the unique Navigation skill at INT roll +1.  That gives you a 300 km range, and as a GM I'd give the user a decent level of accuracy depending on how well they make the Navigation roll - probably not down to a specific room in a building, but at least to a building close enough that you could make a shorter, more accurate teleport to where you really want to go. 

 

Might be cleaner and more thematic to have the limitation "only places that are connected to the power grid".

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7 hours ago, archer said:

 

Might be cleaner and more thematic to have the limitation "only places that are connected to the power grid".

 

True.  Though if the teleport is "Only along electric lines" then the "Only to perceive teleport locations" limitation might already cover that.

 

Edit:  Or maybe you were saying to replace the "Only to perceive teleport locations" with the "only places that are connected to the power grid" limitation?

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Only to places on the grid, isn't much of a limitation.  Not sure I'd give it even -1/4.  The navigation aspect is a notable issue, but might be something where you just wing it.  In reality, yeah, big problem.  In a game?  Ehh.  Are you gonna worry about circuit breakers and fuses?  If not, hand-waving this could be fine too;  this is definitely a power where going with "it just works" might be best, and leave more to the GM's discretion.   


 

BTW:  you can't buy fixed locations in a framework.  P. 301.  I have a hard time buying most limitations as well.  

 

 

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There are plenty of places not connect to the grid.   For the Megascale teleport there are lots of wilderness areas that are not on the grid.  Sure most  places in the urban areas are within a KM of the grid, but lots of places are not.  For the standard teleport there even within the cities there are places that would not be reachable.  For middle of the field on a football stadium would not be reachable.  Even lawns in a lot of suburban areas would not be able to be reached directly.  It would also mean you could not teleport to a car, plane boat or most other vehicles as they are not connected to the grid.

 

 

The limitation only to places connected to the grid also would mean where you teleport to has to be directly connected.   So for example you could come out of a light socket or maybe even an electrical appliance, but often would not be able to choose the precise hex where you emerge.  So after you teleport into the room with your target you may need to make another move (or half move) to actually reach where you need to be.  
 

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Limited Power says, for -1/4, the power has to lose about 1/4 of its effectiveness.  Sure, the wilderness issue is there....but it's not a common teleport destination.

 

I just don't see that the restrictions add up to a -1/4 limit.  YMMV.

And in an urban area????  Come on, guy. :)  Grid coverage approaches 100%, with resolution of something closer to 50-100 meters...basically, house separation.  Fine, you can't reach the middle of the baseball diamond...but you can hit the dugout, the bullpens, the press boxes, etc. etc. etc.  Yeah, it's not 100%...but so what?  Neither is "standard" teleport;  if you're not jumping to a fixed point anyway.  You'll have positional error.  This isn't enough different.

 

Somewhat off-topic...has anyone done "teleport by microwaves"?  Wiretripping is classic...but a modern version would be to use the cell towers.  This'd be kinda cool;  it's a lot cleaner, IMO.  The long-range relay towers support cross-country hops, the local nets provide a good, reasonably-sized, discrete set of destinations.  

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45 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

Limited Power says, for -1/4, the power has to lose about 1/4 of its effectiveness.  Sure, the wilderness issue is there....but it's not a common teleport destination.

 

I just don't see that the restrictions add up to a -1/4 limit.  YMMV.

And in an urban area????  Come on, guy. :)  Grid coverage approaches 100%, with resolution of something closer to 50-100 meters...basically, house separation.  Fine, you can't reach the middle of the baseball diamond...but you can hit the dugout, the bullpens, the press boxes, etc. etc. etc.  Yeah, it's not 100%...but so what?  Neither is "standard" teleport;  if you're not jumping to a fixed point anyway.  You'll have positional error.  This isn't enough different.

Ah, but you're not teleporting to any old urban area.  You're teleporting to an urban area that needs a superhero.  Plenty of opportunity for damage to the normally robust grid. 

That said, I agree that I'd be skeptical of the value. It seems like a thing the GM has to work to make a Limitation instead of something that limits just by being there, and I'm highly suspicious of those. 

 

49 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

Somewhat off-topic...has anyone done "teleport by microwaves"?  Wiretripping is classic...but a modern version would be to use the cell towers.  This'd be kinda cool;  it's a lot cleaner, IMO.  The long-range relay towers support cross-country hops, the local nets provide a good, reasonably-sized, discrete set of destinations.  

At first I thought you meant teleport by microwave oven, and thought that'd be way too silly. 

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With a standard teleport I can teleport next to my target and attack it.  As long as you can perceive the target hex with a targeting sense there is no positional error.   That means I can use a half move teleport and attack my target in HTH combat.   If I can only teleport to a location that has an electrical device, or is in some way connected to the grid that is often not going to be the case.   

 

To give some examples of thing I may not be able to do with only connected to the grid.

 

1)    Teleport into the middle of the street.
2)    Teleport too many locations in parking lot.
3)    Teleport to playground in a school.
4)    Teleport to the yard of a house in the suburbs.
5)    Teleport to the middle of a warehouse 
6)    Teleport to the middle of a river or lake.

 

One thing to keep in mind is that with a limitation like this both your starting point and your destination have to be connected to the grid.   This is going to limit your ability to teleport out of situations which is worth a limitation.   A teleporter without that limitation can easily teleport out of restraints.  But one with it could be prevented from doing so by making sure they are not near the grid.  So if I entangle you and put you somewhere that is not connected to the grid (see  the above list) you are stuck there. 
 

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30 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

Ah, but you're not teleporting to any old urban area.  You're teleporting to an urban area that needs a superhero.  Plenty of opportunity for damage to the normally robust grid. 

That said, I agree that I'd be skeptical of the value. It seems like a thing the GM has to work to make a Limitation instead of something that limits just by being there, and I'm highly suspicious of those. 

 

At first I thought you meant teleport by microwave oven, and thought that'd be way too silly. 

That would be a really hot topic.  Especially if the microwave oven is actually being used.

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Sure, but the grid has more connection points than the web.  Ever see a routing closet with a dozen network switches? :)  The power grid is far more redundant.  Blow up a half dozen houses...well, that actually doesn't cut them off from the grid, and even then, the neighbors are still there.

 

To make this a limitation, I might buy that pulling off the Die Hard ("you ask for a miracle, I give you the FBI" as they cut the power to the building) stops you from 'porting.  If shutting down a substation blocks that part of the grid out...and by implication, a larger-scale outage takes out more...then there's probably a limitation there.

 

Lone Wolf:  when are you going to have a targeting sense into a room across a hall?

Teleport to the middle of the street...no, but to a street light that's a dozen hexes away?  Yard of a house in the suburbs...my house has power outlets on the front and back porches.  Middle of a warehouse...light fixtures.  Plus, there's OFTEN going to be power at many/most of the supports.  And again...how far do you have to go?  You're still in teleport targeting error, pretty much.

How often do you have to teleport to the middle of a lake?  What are you gonna do when you get there...other than sink?

All of those, as GBI points out, are very minor impositions at most, that you have to dig to get to.  You can readily get to 90+% of the locations, close enough to be a Full Move, or maybe a single basic non-combat move, away.  

BTW, the cell-tower teleport is something I'm considering building.  Some powers are pretty obvious...probably HRRH, clearly a radio Flash, perhaps a Suppress as a jamming power.  It's after that where I'm going...hmmmmmm...

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Will supervillains be on the grid, or have a generator for their  base so unusual power usage does not give them away?

 

"You can use another movement power next phase to close the gap" seems more limited by far than the movement power that puts me where I want to be.  Using a full phase is a -1/2 limitation.  How often will I not need to Teleport and then move with another movement power?  If the character needs to land beside a connection to the grid. that seems limited.

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