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Usable as 2nd form of movement (6E)

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9 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Will supervillains be on the grid, or have a generator for their  base so unusual power usage does not give them away?

 

"You can use another movement power next phase to close the gap" seems more limited by far than the movement power that puts me where I want to be.  Using a full phase is a -1/2 limitation.  How often will I not need to Teleport and then move with another movement power?  If the character needs to land beside a connection to the grid. that seems limited.

And when will those matter given that the character has Flight as well? 

 

About all I think is really being given up is the ability to Teleport out of grabs/Entangles if the player can't justify having a conductor to teleport through.  Maybe not even that if the player pulls a teleport-to-where-I-am-but-oriented-differently trick.  But if this is MegaTeleport, that's a moot point anyways. 

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I've just been thinking about using the cell towers.  One question that came to mind was, how near do you have to be to the tower, how far away from the tower can you jump away on arrival?  

The same type of issue applies here too.  How near do you have to be to jump in, how far away can you jump on the way out?  Also, what KINDS of connections?  Can you use a light socket?  It's connected to the grid.  

Hugh, I get the point, sure, but when are you going to have a targeting sense on your destination with this kind of teleport?  So you're not going to have precise arrivals anyway.  So you're still going to be moving.  Remember...if we're talking MegaScale, the range mods are HUGE.  The range mod for 1 km is -14, so for, let's say, 30 km, it's -24.  If the teleporter can't see the target at all (which with MegaScale is very likely) you're at OCV - 5 vs. DCV 3, with that Range Mod applying.  A 4 on the roll means you're missing by 20, so you arrive 40 meters off, in a random direction.  

 

I love teleport.  It's one of my favorite powers, because it's perhaps the one I'd want to have the most.  BUT, it's one where there's a routine disconnect between how it's handled in comics/books, and in the rules.  The Hero System rules are *extremely* constraining on it, if you abide by them, when it comes to non-combat teleport in particular.  Teleporters hop from base to scene instantly...quite often with allies, and that gets EXTREMELY expensive very quickly, to add increased mass AND MegaScale...with no requirement for a targeting sense.  How many fixed locations does that suggest?  Like I said earlier...to cover even a small section of an area with coarsely defined fixed locations, needs hundreds of fixed locations.  Buy 5 locations, double this 5 times, you get 160...and that's 30 points.  That's a LOT of points.

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1 hour ago, LoneWolf said:

With a standard teleport I can teleport next to my target and attack it.  As long as you can perceive the target hex with a targeting sense there is no positional error.   That means I can use a half move teleport and attack my target in HTH combat.   If I can only teleport to a location that has an electrical device, or is in some way connected to the grid that is often not going to be the case.   

 

To give some examples of thing I may not be able to do with only connected to the grid.

 

1)    Teleport into the middle of the street.
2)    Teleport too many locations in parking lot.
3)    Teleport to playground in a school.
4)    Teleport to the yard of a house in the suburbs.
5)    Teleport to the middle of a warehouse 
6)    Teleport to the middle of a river or lake.

 

One thing to keep in mind is that with a limitation like this both your starting point and your destination have to be connected to the grid.   This is going to limit your ability to teleport out of situations which is worth a limitation.   A teleporter without that limitation can easily teleport out of restraints.  But one with it could be prevented from doing so by making sure they are not near the grid.  So if I entangle you and put you somewhere that is not connected to the grid (see  the above list) you are stuck there. 
 

Yup. That’s a good description of what a -1/4 limitation would be.

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45 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Yup. That’s a good description of what a -1/4 limitation would be.

 

It pretty much comes down to whether you look at where he can go...or where he can't.  Particularly with the issue of how far off the arrival point for a normal teleport would tend to be.

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10 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

It pretty much comes down to whether you look at where he can go...or where he can't.  Particularly with the issue of how far off the arrival point for a normal teleport would tend to be.

To determine whether a movement power (any power) loses 1/4 of its utility, I think you need to look at where he can't go (what he can't do) relative to what he could do if the power were not limited.  Given it is an advantage solely for an Entangle to prevent teleportation it seems like a Teleport that cannot escape entangles is already pushing into Limitation territory.

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Who said it can't be used to escape entangles? 

 

This goes back to the point of, how close does she have to be to whatever she can use, plus of course, what can she use, as access and exit points?  For example, if it includes light fixtures, so long as they're on the grid...many large parking lots have lighting.  And, what's the distance to/from the socket?

 

Yeah, if it's "must be within 2m of an open electrical socket"...THAT would be pretty limiting.  "Must be within 20m of any electrical path connected to the grid" is much less so.

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18 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

It pretty much comes down to whether you look at where he can go...or where he can't.  Particularly with the issue of how far off the arrival point for a normal teleport would tend to be.

I’m looking at it as more of reliability on the Players end.  The player (at a 1/4 lim) often gets to choose where to end up however every once in a while it won’t. The character either can’t go there because of off the grid. Or close but still not in an ideal spot because of where the exit is isn’t a great spot. For example the Warehouse, especially run downed, is a great example. The Target is mainly in the center of a wide open area, no outlets.  Also I look at other -1/4 limitations such as Howler’s not in vacuum and Icicle’s not in hot and dry environment and guess how often those ever came up.

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Yeah, some of those comparisons are probably fair.  Assigning a value to a potential advantage or limitation is an art, for sure, and not a science.  I also think a lot of the limitations written up...aren't deserved, or are deserved only in certain contexts that have to be, but often aren't, respected.  P. 410, vol. 1...a VPP can take a general -1/4 Limitation for Only Magic.  How is that a limitation?  In many supers games, it's not;  there's no difference between magic and powers.  When the two *can* be distinguished, even if it's not common...there's a plausible limitation there.  Similarly, the -1/2 examples include Only Fire Powers and Only Elemental Magic.  Doesn't "elemental" completely cover fire?  So why are they both worth the same?

 

And some of this is perception.  I don't agree there's no power outlets in the middle of the run-down warehouse...usually, there *are*.  Maybe quite a few are broken and might cause a short circuit...but did we say it had to be a working socket?  And even if some aren't usable, are all of them out?  Or light sockets, if those are allowed;  the overhead lights didn't get blown away , did they?  The bulbs might be out, but...so what?  Or are they not in range?  

 

See...I'd much rather, as a rule, take this as a -0, and just let it be something the GM kicks in just for fun, or with those more obvious conditions like the middle of the lake.  Maybe make it a small Phys Complication.  That feels a lot more appropriate, and we don't have to get into this formalized nit-picking.  

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4 hours ago, unclevlad said:

And some of this is perception.  I don't agree there's no power outlets in the middle of the run-down warehouse...usually, there *are*.  Maybe quite a few are broken and might cause a short circuit...but did we say it had to be a working socket?  And even if some aren't usable, are all of them out?  Or light sockets, if those are allowed;  the overhead lights didn't get blown away , did they?  The bulbs might be out, but...so what?  Or are they not in range? 

 

I'd say yeah, it would have to be a working socket for the electrical teleporter to be able to travel in or out of it.  You can't step through a door if it's welded shut or otherwise can't be opened.

 

If a derelict warehouse's power is no longer on, does that mean it's no longer connected to the electrical grid?  I know next to nothing on this stuff, but am assuming some switch is set by the electric company that keeps electricity from going to those wires at all.  Which would mean the teleporter shouldn't be able to get anywhere in there either, at least from outside.

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I too assumed a connect soceket maybe not working per se as there’s no electricity at the moment. For example my old house had knob and tube wiring which was there but not connected (thankfully) to anything. So the T-port would work through the working house sockets but not along any of the old knob stuff.

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5 hours ago, unclevlad said:

See...I'd much rather, as a rule, take this as a -0, and just let it be something the GM kicks in just for fun, or with those more obvious conditions like the middle of the lake.  Maybe make it a small Phys Complication.  That feels a lot more appropriate, and we don't have to get into this formalized nit-picking.  

The only nit picking I see is that some people are trying to make more hoops for a little -1/4 limitation than necessary. 

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15 hours ago, unclevlad said:

See...I'd much rather, as a rule, take this as a -0, and just let it be something the GM kicks in just for fun, or with those more obvious conditions like the middle of the lake.  Maybe make it a small Phys Complication.  That feels a lot more appropriate, and we don't have to get into this formalized nit-picking.  

 

-0 means "it's  not limited at all".  -1/4, at least to me, means "on rare occasions, the power is completely useless" or the limitation comes up more often, but with less impact. 

 

A power with a 15- activation roll works over 95% of the time, while a 14- works over 90% of the time.  To me, the activation roll is more limiting than "does not work in a defined circumstance that arises with the same frequency" because that is predictable - if I know the power won't work, I don't waste my time trying.  At the same time, my enemies cannot plan around my 15- activation roll.  They can plan around my inability to teleport to locations not connected to the grid.

 

I would still expect a power with a -1/4 limitation to work around 90% of the time.  13- activation is 83.8% and 12- is 74% - those are a lot higher limitations than -1/4.

 

Defining the particulars is important.  If both departure and destination must be within touch range of an active electrical socket, that is much more limiting than if they just have to be within 10 meters of the same active electrical socket.  The former is prevented if I can restrain the target - and restrainable is a -1/2 limitation.

 

To the VPP question, if "only magic" means -1/4, tell me what cannot be done with this VPP that could be done with an unlimited one.  Well, it does make it impossible to disguise your powers as Technological.  Detect Magic will pick up on all of your powers without fail.  You can't wriggle around a Dispel or Suppress Magic power.  Can I as a GM build in the occasional situation where this is relevant?  Sure.  Is it worth more than -1/4?  Not in most games.

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