Reduced Penetration - I dont really get it. Please help.

[greypaladin_01]

Hello everyone.  I was hoping that all the people that post here might be able to help me make sense of the Reduced Penetration limitation.  

 

I understand mechanically that if you hit, your divide the damage dice in half and roll them, then apply the BODY damage separately against defenses, but combine the STUN before applying.  This is to simulate something that is stopped more easily by armor or tougher defenses.

 

I see that it is used for shotguns as well as claws on monsters in the bestiary.   But at least at the HEROIC levels of game, it seems like these weakens the attacks to be almost useless.   Anyone with 3 or 4 PD of Resistant defense would be virtually immune.  This doesnt seem to make sense to me, especially with shotguns or large creature claws.

 

Am I missing something important?   Any insights would be appreciated.  

 

 

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

The BODY damage is generally stopped by any serious armor, but the STUN damage remains unaffected.  This means that Reduced Penetration attacks are just as good for knocking somebody out so you can get away / tie them up / slit their throat as a normal attacks.  Particularly in superhero games, the regular attacks might not be doing enough BODY damage to kill before KOing anyways.  And remember that the rules for killing somebody helpless don't require you to sit there and ping them to death. 

On top of that, it has absolutely no impact on a Killing Attack if the target has no RDEF.  Depending on your game, that might be pretty common. 

It also works well to make a less-lethal attack without going all the way down to STUN Only. 

[greypaladin_01]

Ok so mechanically it fills a slot between STUN ONLY and Standard Damages....  that makes sense.   I suppose the mechanics are just a bit clunky compared to the rest of the system and I was second guessing myself.  Thank you!

[unclevlad]

They're really not clunky in practice;  the easiest thing to do is just roll the damage normally, then split the BODY into 2 halves.  It is probably true that this will be slightly LESS effective overall, as the larger dice pool is more likely to roll near-average.  To see:  take a 'perfectly average' 12d6 roll, 2 of each.  Halved, it's 6 BODY twice, 42 stun, 6 BODY for determining KO.  With a pair of 6-die pools, both sixes and no ones will happen 6C2 * 256 times, or 3840, out of 46656.  So about 7% of the time, you get 8 BODY out of it.

 

Plus, I think the notion of "split the BODY in half and apply them" would help avoid things like "you're only rolling once."  

 

Mechanically, yeah, it's in between a stun-only and regular damage.  It's almost an advantage...almost...in a game where collateral damage and damage to bystanders is considered a major issue.  As the damage DC cap rises, it can also rapidly become a cheap, low-impact limitation on a blast or HA.  The defenses tend to be there to soak up the total STUN.

[greypaladin_01]

That would be a faster method for sure.  It would also help reduce the problems with having half dice or +1 on Killing Attacks.   I appreciate the insights from everyone.  Even though I've known HERO for a long time, there are always new corners I've never really touched on before.

[unclevlad]

I'm not a fan of Red Pen on killing attacks.  Notionally, that's just odd.  A killing attack is implicitly one where the force is concentrated into a small area, with the intent of penetrating to reach organs.  Red Pen suggests a blow that's spread out.

 

A good test is, "describe to me in English what this power does."  Red Pen physical might be a magnetic attack, a largeish ball-like pulse perhaps.  Red Pen energy:  cold can often be considered this way.  But now...Red Pen killing physical?  Red Pen killing energy?  If you can sell me on something...ok.  

[greypaladin_01]

No I agree with you.   That is partly where my confusion was coming from.   Every version of Reduced Pen I see in books was always on killing attacks as I listed.   But it felt somewhat contradictory to Killing Attacks.  But I suppose it is one of the Limitations that is more Heroic level that Superheroic anyway.

 

[dsatow]

A couple of things I see Reduce Penetration used on is a version of attacks where there is a large number of attacks but at the same time autofire doesn't cut it for some reason.

 

In one game, a 4d6 RKA with reduced penetration was defined as a two pistol shot to the same point on the person.  It could have been autofire, but the PC wanted to always hit the same spot with the two gun fire.  This made the damage on par with two guns and the stun damage much more in line with the game.

 

In another game, the speedster had an energy blast no range defined as multiple punches to the same spot.  The reason he didn't use autofire was due to the end cost.  The attack gave him a reasonable effect with out a massive drain on End.

 

 

[Tom Cowan]

describe to me in English what this power does---

It is a 10,000 deg plasma wash (blast) for .2 mico seconds (only going to cook surface)

[Ninja-Bear]

I’ve seen it used as the One-Two Punch when used on Normal Damage. Also for HKA, it’s usually used for sfx Animal Claws. Should claws be as effective against armor as say swords? Your call as a GM.

[greypaladin_01]

All good points and thank you all again for your input!

[unclevlad]

14 hours ago, dsatow said:

A couple of things I see Reduce Penetration used on is a version of attacks where there is a large number of attacks but at the same time autofire doesn't cut it for some reason.

 

In one game, a 4d6 RKA with reduced penetration was defined as a two pistol shot to the same point on the person.  It could have been autofire, but the PC wanted to always hit the same spot with the two gun fire.  This made the damage on par with two guns and the stun damage much more in line with the game.

 

In another game, the speedster had an energy blast no range defined as multiple punches to the same spot.  The reason he didn't use autofire was due to the end cost.  The attack gave him a reasonable effect with out a massive drain on End.

 

 

 

The double pistol shot is an area where you probably should roll the dice completely separately, and roll the stun multipliers separately.  That should mostly mitigate the stun-related risks...high AND low.

 

Yeah, Red Pen physical works great in cases where autofire doesn't model the effect.  Autofire allows for multiple targets, which isn't desired in these examples.  A telekinetic punch would be another, and someone with extra limbs could be a third, when all the blows are at the same target.  I've got a pretty nasty build:  moderate STR, tons of extra limbs, +STR only with the extra limbs, stretching only with the limbs.  Easy to define an HA with the effect of 3 limbs striking together.  So you have a brawler-type who can hit ya even if you're 15m away.  Autofire also doubles the cost of Reduced END, which becomes very significant at times.

[ScottishFox]

On 8/7/2020 at 7:14 PM, greypaladin_01 said:

Hello everyone.  I was hoping that all the people that post here might be able to help me make sense of the Reduced Penetration limitation.  

 

I understand mechanically that if you hit, your divide the damage dice in half and roll them, then apply the BODY damage separately against defenses, but combine the STUN before applying.  This is to simulate something that is stopped more easily by armor or tougher defenses.

 

I see that it is used for shotguns as well as claws on monsters in the bestiary.   But at least at the HEROIC levels of game, it seems like these weakens the attacks to be almost useless.   Anyone with 3 or 4 PD of Resistant defense would be virtually immune.  This doesnt seem to make sense to me, especially with shotguns or large creature claws.

 

Am I missing something important?   Any insights would be appreciated.  

 

 

 

Your first impression is correct.  Even moderate armor is going to turn reduced penetration attacks into something that is easily survived.

 

It simulates animal attacks pretty well, imo, but I wouldn't use it for weapons much in a high-lethality setting (Old West, grittier Fantasy HERO, etc.) unless you want a scenario where the heroes can be safely defeated without lethal wounds.

 

Still, if one of your heroes falls unconscious with a pack of wolves pulling at his limbs - it's unlikely that the armor will keep him alive forever.

[Ninja-Bear]

Hey sorry for the Necro thread but I remembered two weapons that Red. Pen. suits fine. The Shuko (ninja climbing claws) & the Pendjepit (an Indonesian pincer). Now as written but do regular killing attacks so you would add damage as normal. I feel that these two would be better depicted with the Red. Pen. in a ....ahem.... more realistic game.  I can’t see pinchers doing the same amount of damage as a knife (against armor) just because you have the strength to do so.

[unclevlad]

45 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Hey sorry for the Necro thread but I remembered two weapons that Red. Pen. suits fine. The Shuko (ninja climbing claws) & the Pendjepit (an Indonesian pincer). Now as written but do regular killing attacks so you would add damage as normal. I feel that these two would be better depicted with the Red. Pen. in a ....ahem.... more realistic game.  I can’t see pinchers doing the same amount of damage as a knife (against armor) just because you have the strength to do so.

 

Found it...

Pendjepit- the pendjepit is a hand held pincer like device the mouth of the weapon is fitted with teeth to help rip off bits of flesh. This weapon is only affective against exposed or lightly covered flesh.

I can't find a pic, so it's a little hard to say, but I'm not sure what the best approach would be in Hero.  I'd actually lean to the older rule with an HKA;  the max that STR can add is the weapon's damage rating.  I'm actually leaning to HA, NND (resistant PD), Does Body.

 

[Crusty]

On 8/7/2020 at 9:28 PM, unclevlad said:

I'm not a fan of Red Pen on killing attacks.  Notionally, that's just odd.  A killing attack is implicitly one where the force is concentrated into a small area, with the intent of penetrating to reach organs.  Red Pen suggests a blow that's spread out.

 

A good test is, "describe to me in English what this power does."  Red Pen physical might be a magnetic attack, a largeish ball-like pulse perhaps.  Red Pen energy:  cold can often be considered this way.  But now...Red Pen killing physical?  Red Pen killing energy?  If you can sell me on something...ok.  

This is a good point. I can see a few areas where red pen is applicable for killing attacks though, like a .38 pistol. 
 

My dad was a cop and had a great story of shooting at a car windshield with a 38 and getting nowhere. Said he’d have been better off throwing the gun than using it. It’s a killing attack that lacks penetration; it’s slightly smaller than a 357 but the magnum has a whole bunch more powder. The 38 in this example lacks velocity, which penetration requires. Red pen simulates this nicely. 

 

A glazer safety slug or any type of frangible slug, same thing. Even straight lead. Makes a nice hole until you put on a coat. 

[Sveta8]

Reduced Penetration, for me, feels like it hits a bizzare success/failure point. Namely, as I see it representing blunt sort of killing attacks, but without some of the umph of weight behind it.

A beast's claws aren't sharpened like the blade of a razorwire-esk sword. A club might be used to kill someone, but it isn't going to go through armor like a mace. It needs to have the intent to kill, and the method to not support it, or falter at armor. A whip coated in glass shards comes to mind.

 

Or heck, just weapons in disrepair. Your hero's sword of +1 hasn't been taken care of in a while? Perhaps slap Reduced Penetration on it until they get it sharpened or something equivilant. Some care and upkeep.

[Thia Halmades]

Eeyah, that’s confusing to read. Okay, so for my own amusement, I keep rewriting it in my head, but the upshot is, “determine maximum damage, then split the dice pool, apply it to BODY twice, and apply defenses against each attack.” So the question was, “what is this appropriate?” And the answer is, as with me it so often is, “IDK, what effect are you going for?” 

 

Examples where I think this is appropriate:

 

* Shottys. Everyone always brings it up, and I am certainly on that band wagon. My shotgun does KA, my bad guy is wearing armor, it’ll put him against the wall and ring his bell, but may not drop him outright

 

* HKAs. So maybe you purchase killing attacks for your martial arts, or that’s your special effect, whatever, having that killing damage reduced when it meets armor makes total sense to me.

 

* As a way to represent vehicle armor, in a weird, way; vs. armored vehicles, all non-vehicle class weapons suffer reduced penetration (campaign rule, -0).

 

* Some variations on very gnarly rubber bullets that may be built as RKAs with high STUNx but you might want to reinforce the idea they are “less lethal” — not to be confused with “non lethal.”

 

In short; is it weird? Yes. Is it useful? Yes. Certainly one of the more niche limitations in the game, but definitely holds its own in the sense of a clear, mechanical way to represent something that would otherwise require a lot more kludging.

[Ninja-Bear]

I forgot that Shotguns are typically bought this way.

[Thia Halmades]

55 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

I forgot that Shotguns are typically bought this way.

 

As my former manager has said to me in similar situations, @Ninja-Bear, “You’re lucky I was here!” 😉 (he always was a complete smart ass).

[Ninja-Bear]

2 hours ago, Thia Halmades said:

 

As my former manager has said to me in similar situations, @Ninja-Bear, “You’re lucky I was here!” 😉 (he always was a complete smart ass).

Ha! What I use to say to my managers in retail when I brought headaches was “that’s why you’re paid the big bucks!” 😂