How to build equipment with negative effects?

[lendrick]

So I was building some heavy armor for my campaign, and I wanted to make it slow people down by reducing their dexterity by some amount.  I wanted to use Side Effect, but Side Effect seems like it's built around being a single, one-off occurrence when a power is activated, as opposed to a constant thing.  Is there an official, accepted way of doing this, or should I just wing it?

 

(Note:  I'm looking for something in the general case; I realize some of this could probably be accomplished by adding weight to the armor, but what if it's actually cursed and I want to make the armor reduce PRE or INT instead?)

[Ninja-Bear]

Side Effect does have a whenever used clause. However if you want just use custom limitation.

[LoneWolf]

Just use the encumbrance rules and the Mass limitation.  For heavy armor use Double Listed Mass.  This does not actually reduce the persons DEX, but imposes a penalty on DC and DEX rolls which is a better way to do it.  It can also impose a penalty on movement and require the person wearing the armor to spend some END. 

 

For the cursed armor use a side effect with the whenever used.  If the cursed item is supposed to impose a permanent penalty, than use a transformation as the side effect. 

[Chris Goodwin]

Hero Designer allows you to apply Limitations to Complications.  The rules don't necessarily allow for it... but they don't prohibit it either.  

 

Just add Complications through the same Focus.

[pawsplay]

Buy down the characteristic and then apply Focus to the reduction.

[HeroGM]

Change environment as a side effect. Oh and do persistent on it.

[IndianaJoe3]

On 8/16/2020 at 3:27 PM, Chris Goodwin said:

Hero Designer allows you to apply Limitations to Complications.  The rules don't necessarily allow for it... but they don't prohibit it either.  

 

Just add Complications through the same Focus.

 

I think APG1 has some suggestions regarding Complications and Foci.

[ScottishFox]

The problem with 6e encumbrance and the STR table is that a reasonably strong character - exactly the kind that will use heavy armor - suffers virtually no penalties at all.

 

Take a STR 20 Knight of the Realm in full plate armor.  40kg.

 

Encumbrance Level:  0 to 1 (40kg is 10% - probably has some other gear to nudge it up to the 11-20% range).

Optional double-for-armor rule leaves the character still at Encumbrance Level 1.

 

Full plate armor = 1 DCV and NO additional endurance cost and NO movement penalty.  That does not simulate the effect of 40 kg of armor at all.  It neither makes dramatic nor common sense.

 

I liked the 4th edition rules better (fixed weights for the ranges regardless of strength) and eventually settled on a hybrid system where if you were strong enough (STR 13 for light, STR 15 for medium, STR 18 for heavy) then the penalty would be reduced by one level.  We then set the movement penalty to 2*(DCV penalty - 1) in meters.

 

So that basically works out to:

     Light Armor (DEF 1 - Cloth) = No penalties for anyone.

     Light Armor (DEF 2 - Leather) = No penalties for anyone STR 13+ / -1 DCV for the weak.

     Light Armor (DEF 3 - Boiled Leather) = -1 DCV for anyone STR 13+ / -2 DCV and -2m movement for the weak.

     Medium Armor (DEF 4 - Ring Mail) = -1 DCV for anyone STR 15+ / -2 DCV and -2m movement for the weak.

     Medium Armor (DEF 5 - Scale Mail) = -2 DCV and -2m movement for anyone STR 15+ / -3 DCV and -4m movement for the weak.

     Medium Armor (DEF 6 - Chain Mail) = --2 DCV and -2m movement for anyone STR 15+ / -3 DCV and -4m movement for the weak.

     Heavy Armor (DEF 7 - Plate & Chain) = -3 DCV and -4m movement for anyone STR 18+ / -4 DCV and -6m movement for the weak.

     Heavy Armor (DEF 8 - Plate Armor) = -3 DCV and -4m movement for anyone STR 18+ / -4 DCV and -6m movement for the weak.

 

This hits the right feel for the campaign and makes the decision to forego heavy armor a reasonable one if you value movement speed and avoiding hits to soaking them.

     

 

[Ninja-Bear]

2 hours ago, ScottishFox said:

The problem with 6e encumbrance and the STR table is that a reasonably strong character - exactly the kind that will use heavy armor - suffers virtually no penalties at all.

 

Take a STR 20 Knight of the Realm in full plate armor.  40kg.

 

Encumbrance Level:  0 to 1 (40kg is 10% - probably has some other gear to nudge it up to the 11-20% range).

Optional double-for-armor rule leaves the character still at Encumbrance Level 1.

 

Full plate armor = 1 DCV and NO additional endurance cost and NO movement penalty.  That does not simulate the effect of 40 kg of armor at all.  It neither makes dramatic nor common sense.

According to whom? Hollywood? (If it works for you group more the better btw 😁). Let’s remember the Knight has been wearing armor since what 10 years of age? Heavy armor was designed to be moved and fought in.  And for dramatic purposes well that’s a subjective thing. I think you should have Element Use Art in Armor even if you aren’t using Martial Arts then I’d say a Shepard is asked you wear a King’s Armor he may judge the penalties and say nah. But a trained warrior still getting dinged? Well each there own.

[ScottishFox]

14 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

According to whom? Hollywood? (If it works for you group more the better btw 😁). Let’s remember the Knight has been wearing armor since what 10 years of age? Heavy armor was designed to be moved and fought in.  And for dramatic purposes well that’s a subjective thing. I think you should have Element Use Art in Armor even if you aren’t using Martial Arts then I’d say a Shepard is asked you wear a King’s Armor he may judge the penalties and say nah. But a trained warrior still getting dinged? Well each there own.

 

Even just the TMA and MMA training I've done and the limited armor those arts come with were enough to cause a penalty, imo.  We're talking just a few pounds of material, but it restricts movement and contributes immediately to over-heating and fatigue.  I don't see someone in 40kg of gear (gambeson + layers of armor) not suffering movement, DCV and END penalties.

 

We could probably quibble at length over how severe those penalties should be, but I'm confident the best answer isn't none. 

I mean, what was the point of lightly armored skirmishing units if guys in field plate could run just as fast and just as far while being much safer doing so?

 

The second issue I have with the penalty being effectively zero is game balance.  If plate armor has no draw backs then other options become a failed IQ test.  I like the lightly armored players to feel like they've made a valid choice that involves sacrificing some safety for increased mobility (which can be a great defense of its own) and the ability to fight longer before fatiguing.

[Ninja-Bear]

Like I said ScottishFox if you like it good!

[Gandalf970]

I used some of the options in Fantasy Hero by giving negatives to DCV and DEX until they bought off the penalties.  This stopped players from picking up armor that is for sure.  I will also add the movement penalty to future campaigns.

[pawsplay]

Probably the most realistic depiction of heavy armor would be that it costs END in some fashion. But I want to draw back a bit... STR 20 isn't reasonably strong, that person is strong even by the standard of knights and mercenaries.

[Gandalf970]

Page 224 and 225 five some great ideas on balancing armor.  I use the Endurance cost, the DCV and DEX rules and the rule that Post -Segment 12 Recoveries don't allow characters to Recover End due to Armor use.

[HeroGM]

Extra endurance or endurance battery with a recovery limited to resting w/o armor on.

What I love is that you can take extra movement and PSLs to overcome the armor issues - mainly for knights who are used to it. Something for players to buy with xps later on if they are not wise to it.

 

[Chris Goodwin]

For straight up encumbrance rules, there've been various sets of rules over the years.  

 

Probably the key is, for a given load (say 25kg for the sake of argument), stronger characters will tend to spend less END than weaker characters.  At least one of the sets of rules may have taken that into account, off the top of my head I can't remember.

[Thia Halmades]

TL;DR; Long Term Endurance is a solid way to represent physical wear of heavy armor. Other thoughts follow.

 

I always get lost in these threads. Are you asking about a fundamental rules question? I.e., “how do I?” Or are you asking “how would you to achieve verisimilitude?” Because we’ll be here for a while depending on how you answer.

 

Short version: Build Armor with the limitation, “weight category, (-x/y).” Weight categories are: Clothing (-0), Light (-1/4) Medium (-1/2) Heavy (-3/4) and Urk (-1). Then the fun starts. What do you want that weight category to mean? This is the beauty and the beast of HERO; you can define for yourself and your campaign what happens when you put on armor of each weight class, and you can also bake in the appropriate skill/ability/super skill to wear it without those restrictions, or have it factor in strength, etc. etc. 

 

For example: When I did Persona, every power included the limitation “Persona Ability (-2).” For that campaign, that was short hand for: Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Only Equipped Persona Ability (-1), Costs END (-1/2). Then there was a bunch of other mods that went after it, which made powers themselves, as you might guess, super cheap! But that’s because you had to pick from a list and each Persona had a corresponding set of powers it could learn. The relationship to your problem being, you can easily bundle whatever it is armor restriction means to you. If you want armor to fatigue, you can use Encumbrance or, for me, Long Term Endurance. If you’re going for a Dark Souls/NIOH vibe, that’s your jam right there. Longer you wear it, the more it wears you down.

[Shoug]

On 9/9/2020 at 11:24 PM, pawsplay said:

Probably the most realistic depiction of heavy armor would be that it costs END in some fashion. But I want to draw back a bit... STR 20 isn't reasonably strong, that person is strong even by the standard of knights and mercenaries.

20 STR is stronger than almost everybody who's ever lived. It's extremely close to the absolute upper limit of human strength. I don't think any ancient person lacking hormone therapy and a modern understanding of nutrition can achieve 20 STR without being an extreme anomaly, standing so far outside the bell curve that they could never get armor without it being specially made for them.

 

On 8/20/2020 at 7:40 AM, ScottishFox said:

 

Even just the TMA and MMA training I've done and the limited armor those arts come with were enough to cause a penalty, imo.  We're talking just a few pounds of material, but it restricts movement and contributes immediately to over-heating and fatigue.  I don't see someone in 40kg of gear (gambeson + layers of armor) not suffering movement, DCV and END penalties.

 

We could probably quibble at length over how severe those penalties should be, but I'm confident the best answer isn't none. 

I mean, what was the point of lightly armored skirmishing units if guys in field plate could run just as fast and just as far while being much safer doing so?

 

The second issue I have with the penalty being effectively zero is game balance.  If plate armor has no draw backs then other options become a failed IQ test.  I like the lightly armored players to feel like they've made a valid choice that involves sacrificing some safety for increased mobility (which can be a great defense of its own) and the ability to fight longer before fatiguing.

The drawbacks of armor need to be in END and social implication. In reality, armor is extremely effective. The END cost is significant, especially in hot weather, but it was not easy to penetrate plate armor. It couldn't be done with normal weapons. At all. There's no amount of striking with an edge that's gonna hurt somebody with armor on. You need more weight, you need hammers, picks, or to grapple them and slip a dagger in between the armor. Even then, it would have to be a sharp dagger pressed hard to penetrate the gambeson, and that's only if there's no chainmail. 

 

The beautiful thing about Hero is that you get to choose how armor works in your campaign. If you want it to be a matter of aesthetics with some mechanical consequences, do that.

[Ninja-Bear]

19 minutes ago, Shoug said:

20 STR is stronger than almost everybody who's ever lived. It's extremely close to the absolute upper limit of human strength. I don't think any ancient person lacking hormone therapy and a modern understanding of nutrition can achieve 20 STR without being an extreme anomaly, standing so far outside the bell curve that they could never get armor without it being specially made for them.

That may be very realistic however this is Hero. Hero by nature is Cinematic. Seeing characters in the STR 20 category is fairly common.

[Thia Halmades]

And down we go through the rabbit hole!

 

Historically an average person with reasonable training could wear heavy armor; the weight is distributed across the body and yes, it’s heavy as hell, but they moved and fought in it just fine. However, it was very tiring, which is why I use LTE to represent this. You can also add an END cost based on weight class, each class adding 1 END to a given STR based action. Swing sword for half cost, but add 3. You can buy this off/counter it with training, an END battery and so on.

[Mathew Robert Ignash]

I'd just buy back a stat, and apply the focus limitations to it. For instance armor that gives you 03 DEX would be -9 points with OIF (-1/2) for -6 points. 
 

So you just make the armor 6 points cheaper.