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About Multiform and a sane version of Duplication


dialNforNinja

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5 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

One crucial point - Hero (and this includes CC) is not a game.  It is a system with which you can design a game. 

 

Set the dials for the game you want.  If you want an Iron Age feel where Supers risk death, and are often bloodied, those DC to defense levels won't do it - Supers rarely take BOD.  If you lower the defenses, they will take STUN really fast. 

 

But if the standard is lower defenses and some Damage Reduction, say 50% Reduction and 8 defenses (12d6 averages 42 STUN -8 = 34 x 50% = 17) the same 17 stun gets through from an average 12DC hit, but 2 BOD gets through as well.

 

Or use Damage Negation.  Maybe we have typical Damage Negation of 6 DCs and 4 Defenses.  That 12 DC attack drops to 6d6, 21 average.  17 STUN gets through, and 2 BOD.  A high roll will ramp the BOD up quicker, as will more DCs, and the rolls become more volatile as large numbers of dice don't vary as wildly from their average rolls.  

 

 

The math of defense powers is fun to play with, but I was a math major in college, and a programmer for 30 or so years.

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3 hours ago, unclevlad said:
Yeah, well, that doesn't work in a game that has to make everything concrete.  I might be hard-pressed to define what you're talking about sanely even in a descriptive system like Fate;  in a GURPS or Hero...gahhh.

 

 


I'm probably doing a bad job of explaining the concept if it sounds that complicated and wooly - Let me give a quick but more defined example of what I mean, using just three sets in red, green, and blue, and every one has the same 20 total points available so they can be mixed and matched in a 60pt pool. It's dreadfully unoptimized with no modifiers or limiters, but I wanted to keep it simple enough to just count up in my head.

Red wuns go fasta, so the set bonus is Speed. Each Red has 7pt reserved for the purpose, so when you've got two that's 14 and buys +1 SPD while all three is 21 so it's +2 SPD - there's some wasted points there, but such is the cost of Super and Ultimate forms that you're not always using. The other 13 points go to +2 STR/+1 DEX each, then increasing Run and Jump, maybe including 1m of each with 1m=1km Megascale. In an actual Kamen Rider game that would probably be an Everyman Power with how much even civilians tend to run at the speed of plot :P

Blue wuns iz lucky, but Luck isn't allowed in frameworks and kinda sucks without lots of dice, so instead of Speed the combo items are Any CSLs. Each Blue also has +3rPD/rED, +1 DCV, and a point of Power Defense, defined as just being that hard to get a solid hit on.

Green iz da killiest, so each green adds +2 DC to the base form's HKA Rider Kick, one level of Density Increase, +1 REC, and the combo bonuses are 5pt each for OCV, so it's +1 with one green, +3 with two, and +5 with all three.

In any case, being in any particular form is just a matter of what you put in each of the three trinket slots, and what color the trim stripes and panels are on your super-suit, so the modular combo bonuses are the only thing that makes me even ask if they each have to be a new Multiform slot. It may well still end up making you worry about being too Mr. Anything to let a player you don't know have a go with, but that's not a character sheet level issue.

 

 

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6 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Another major issue in the discussion of defenses is the prevalence of killing attacks, because they are wildly erratic.  The STUN total is dominated by a single die, so an average BODY roll, with a 5 or 6 on the stun multiplier, yields a massive amount of STUN.  4d6 killing delivers 54 STUN or more, 25% of the time.  And it forces players to take serious resistant defenses;  that same attack will deliver 16 BODY or more, with only resistant defenses applying, 25% of the time.  By the same token, they'll also do basically no STUN a lot...altho you still need to worry about the BODY.

 

6e resolved the KA being the go-to to pound STUN through high defenses with a Stun Multiple of 1-3.  Hit locations still range up to 5, but normal stun is also modified by hit locations.

 

 

20 minutes ago, dialNforNinja said:

 


I'm probably doing a bad job of explaining the concept if it sounds that complicated and wooly - Let me give a quick but more defined example of what I mean, using just three sets in red, green, and blue, and every one has the same 20 total points available so they can be mixed and matched in a 60pt pool. It's dreadfully unoptimized with no modifiers or limiters, but I wanted to keep it simple enough to just count up in my head.

Red wuns go fasta, so the set bonus is Speed. Each Red has 7pt reserved for the purpose, so when you've got two that's 14 and buys +1 SPD while all three is 21 so it's +2 SPD - there's some wasted points there, but such is the cost of Super and Ultimate forms that you're not always using. The other 13 points go to +2 STR/+1 DEX each, then increasing Run and Jump, maybe including 1m of each with 1m=1km Megascale. In an actual Kamen Rider game that would probably be an Everyman Power with how much even civilians tend to run at the speed of plot :P

Blue wuns iz lucky, but Luck isn't allowed in frameworks and kinda sucks without lots of dice, so instead of Speed the combo items are Any CSLs. Each Blue also has +3rPD/rED, +1 DCV, and a point of Power Defense, defined as just being that hard to get a solid hit on.

Green iz da killiest, so each green adds +2 DC to the base form's HKA Rider Kick, one level of Density Increase, +1 REC, and the combo bonuses are 5pt each for OCV, so it's +1 with one green, +3 with two, and +5 with all three.

In any case, being in any particular form is just a matter of what you put in each of the three trinket slots, and what color the trim stripes and panels are on your super-suit, so the modular combo bonuses are the only thing that makes me even ask if they each have to be a new Multiform slot. It may well still end up making you worry about being too Mr. Anything to let a player you don't know have a go with, but that's not a character sheet level issue.

 

 

 

Sounds like a Multipower with variable slots.  Put 1/3 in each of blue, red and green and get a mix.  Put it all in one colour and you focus on that attribute to the detriment of others.  But if the GM is operating on a hard maximum for each type of ability, you end up being either max in one and poor in the others or below the norm in all three.

 

If the GM allows each of the three to hit campaign max at 2 slots and exceed it at three (knowing that three means he's well below campaign norm in the other two categories), but that means a balanced allocation has you below campaign standard in all three areas.

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2 hours ago, Greywind said:

If you need lots of dice to make Luck worthwhile you're doing something wrong.

When the GM remembers to check it in the first place you only get something lucky happening if you roll a six, so even without taking how the degree of effect scales with multiple sixes, if you don't have at least 3-4 dice you're rarely going to get any result. I guess that doesn't count as "lots" of dice in a game where every character having a 12d6 attack is the standard, but compared to SAS/Tri-Stat dX's Divine Relationship or WEG D6's Good/Great Luck, it's paying a lot for something so unreliable, GURPS' Luck is also kind of pricey but you get the performance you're paying for, and even Mekton/Interlok's Luck will at least perform consistently even if buying it as a stat is if anything even more dear. Luck and how it's handled really wasn't the point, though.

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I agree those are Multipower slots or a VPP, not Multiform.  In fact, you shouldn't need 3 multis, and you don't want variable slots because the combo effects are not necessarily pure multiples.  You can't link between different multis, or different slots in a multi...but you don't need to.  What you described is a 9 slot Multi:  1 Red, 2 Reds, 3 Reds;  1 Green, 2 Greens, 3 Greens;  1 Blue, 2 Blue, 3 Blue.  The points define the combo, and that you can't use the 2 Blue and 2 Green combo.  Each slot is a combo power, but that's perfectly legal.  The rest is SFX.   BUT, if you have *12* sets????  So you need to define 36 separate line items.  THAT becomes a VPP...but it's also gonna cost you a TON.  60 point pool size;  the control size depends on how many of these trinkets you can swap at a time.  (And I would not allow a 20 point control cost with Zero Time to Switch, as that feels like an end run around being able to swap all 3 out.)

 

But good lord, what a bookkeeping hell, if you have 36 separate combined powers to define.  And what a mess to try to assess.  And again...how many combinations are really that different?  +2 DCs with your HKA is actually less versatile than +10 STR which does the same thing (and more besides) for the same END cost.

 

I probably would not allow CSLs bought like this...or I'd probably require they're the more expensive ones, like All HTH.  Skills normally should not be purchased in a framework, as they're a Special power.  

Also, your math is off.  The +2 DCs on the HKA is 10;  the DI is 4, and the REC is 1.  That only leaves 5 points for +1 OCV.  Or are you saying that the 2nd green ONLY gives OCV?  Those "amplifying" combinations generally don't work on the math.

 

You're trying to translate the utterly untranslatable...completely foo, descriptive SFX by the writer...into mechanics.  If there's really all these many tweaks, I'm hearing a 60 point VPP with a 60 point control cost, no skill roll, and probably a half phase to change slots.  Granted, that's, what, 135 points....but that's the cost of extreme versatility.  How you set that pool isn't relevant t the GM;  YOU define it as swapping around those trinkets.

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

6e resolved the KA being the go-to to pound STUN through high defenses with a Stun Multiple of 1-3.  Hit locations still range up to 5, but normal stun is also modified by hit locations.

 

 

 

AARGH.  Why my brain fixates on the d6-1 for a stun mult, I don't know...because I know d3 is the rule, but my brain just reverts...

It still does mean that you need to consider rDef a fair bit, but also suggests the sweet spot is something like 10 Def total with 7-8 resistant, and 4 DCs negation.  A 4d killing attack drops to 2 1/2 d or 3d-1 depending on the GM...so you are taking some BODY on average, and versus 12d normal, you're taking high teens still.  An odd aspect of, say, 6 DC negation and 4 rDef is, you're exposing yourself to MORE variance...because 2 dice killing rolls 9+ BODY almost 30% of the time.

 

Plus, Ninja, it REALLY means you want to look at amplifying your killing attack.  Doing that, you are seriously lethal.  You won't knock out;  you'll leave them bleeding out.  Unless the campaign is particularly dark, that is not a good thing.  So you don't necessarily want to be buffing it like that...or using a KA as a main attack, period.

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12 minutes ago, Spence said:

 

Not a rule, just one of several options.

 

page 242 (HS6E v1):

Quote

To use a KA, a character chooses a target and makes an Attack Roll. If he succeeds, he rolls his KA dice. The total on the dice is the BODY damage done. Then he rolls another ½d6. He
multiplies the BODY by that number — the STUN Multiplier — to determine the amount of STUN done.

 

1/2d6 is d3.  We're not talking about including Stun Mult advantages or limitations, so, excluding those, what other options are out there?

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2 hours ago, dialNforNinja said:

When the GM remembers to check it in the first place you only get something lucky happening if you roll a six, so even without taking how the degree of effect scales with multiple sixes, if you don't have at least 3-4 dice you're rarely going to get any result. I guess that doesn't count as "lots" of dice in a game where every character having a 12d6 attack is the standard, but compared to SAS/Tri-Stat dX's Divine Relationship or WEG D6's Good/Great Luck, it's paying a lot for something so unreliable, GURPS' Luck is also kind of pricey but you get the performance you're paying for, and even Mekton/Interlok's Luck will at least perform consistently even if buying it as a stat is if anything even more dear. Luck and how it's handled really wasn't the point, though.

 

(Un)Luck should be a constant in the character's life if they have it, affecting him in little ways outside of the results of the dice.

33 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

 

page 242 (HS6E v1):

 

1/2d6 is d3.  We're not talking about including Stun Mult advantages or limitations, so, excluding those, what other options are out there?

 

Hit Locations, for one.

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2 hours ago, unclevlad said:

36 separate line items.  THAT becomes a VPP...but it's also gonna cost you a TON.  60 point pool size;  the control size depends on how many of these trinkets you can swap at a time.  (And I would not allow a 20 point control cost with Zero Time to Switch, as that feels like an end run around being able to swap all 3 out.)

 

A form change takes OOO about ten seconds (0:29 to ~0:39 there, uncertain as it ends off-camera with just the sound effects playing) when the camera is paying attention, but he doesn't have to stand around waiting for it; even switching them and using the scanner thingy he often does it while running or jumping. A half phase action actually seems too fast for that even only counting while his hands are occupied, but it's necessary to be able to take Move actions at the same time, right? Or does it work like Extra Time (Only to activate) where you can move around but not attack?

 

As for the number of items... I'm now up to 79 "mentalist" powers that will fit into a 10/10 VPP just because I'm enjoying fiddling with them. (Granted, I'm not sure of the legality of some, and sure some others are not by RAW, like those CSLs in my previous post. Weeding those out would still be a pretty wide selection, though.) Toyriffic trinkets is just an excuse! ;)

 

Quote

I'm hearing a 60 point VPP with a 60 point control cost, no skill roll, and probably a half phase to change slots.  Granted, that's, what, 135 points....but that's the cost of extreme versatility.  How you set that pool isn't relevant t the GM;  YOU define it as swapping around those trinkets.

 

Simple is good. I need to get in the habit of reducing complexity as much as possible, and in more than just fiddling with game systems. What happens when someone swipes one and uses it as a super-powered fist load though? Swapping them between Riders, stealing them or having them stolen by enemies, and as previously mentioned getting them from or because of enemies to begin with is standard fare, and if they're just fluff for the working of the VPP they're not actual Focuses, right?

 

46 minutes ago, Greywind said:

 

(Un)Luck should be a constant in the character's life if they have it, affecting him in little ways outside of the results of the dice.


Should, yes... there are many things that should be, but only sometimes are.

 

Last quote and reply should have been first, but the editor box won't let me get the cursor above the quote form the post I actually replied to to add it in:

3 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 Ninja, it REALLY means you want to look at amplifying your killing attack.  Doing that, you are seriously lethal.  You won't knock out;  you'll leave them bleeding out.  Unless the campaign is particularly dark, that is not a good thing.  So you don't necessarily want to be buffing it like that...or using a KA as a main attack, period.


The RGB trios I listed off before were just quick examples, not necessarily even the bones of a final build. That said, most of the time, things hit by a Rider Kick just fly back a few meters and explode without leaving more than a few patches of flames behind, even if they are not normally or logically explosive/flammable. Boss characters, dying soliloquies, and props like cars or scenery are generally the only exception barring some kind of "you have to get around this gimmick" trick. It's a finishing blow, and even primary protagonist Riders have Code of Heroism, not Code vs. Killing. I can't actually think of any character in the forty year history of the series that would qualify as having CvK in the strict Comics Code Authority sense it's usually applied. Sometimes a run of MotW will be converted civilians who need to be hit with a De-Evilizer special attack instead of exploded, but that's pretty much the limit as far as that particular moral quandary goes. "Am I really any different from the monsters?" is more common, but usually answering "Yes, because I don't want to kill 90+% of the world population," and escaping the Evil Organization lab is part of their origin story, and possibly happens in the pre-title scene.

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11 hours ago, unclevlad said:

I agree those are Multipower slots or a VPP, not Multiform.  In fact, you shouldn't need 3 multis, and you don't want variable slots because the combo effects are not necessarily pure multiples.  You can't link between different multis, or different slots in a multi...but you don't need to.  What you described is a 9 slot Multi:  1 Red, 2 Reds, 3 Reds;  1 Green, 2 Greens, 3 Greens;  1 Blue, 2 Blue, 3 Blue.  The points define the combo, and that you can't use the 2 Blue and 2 Green combo.  Each slot is a combo power, but that's perfectly legal.  The rest is SFX.   BUT, if you have *12* sets????  So you need to define 36 separate line items.  THAT becomes a VPP...but it's also gonna cost you a TON.  60 point pool size;  the control size depends on how many of these trinkets you can swap at a time.  (And I would not allow a 20 point control cost with Zero Time to Switch, as that feels like an end run around being able to swap all 3 out.)

 

But good lord, what a bookkeeping hell, if you have 36 separate combined powers to define.  And what a mess to try to assess.  And again...how many combinations are really that different?  +2 DCs with your HKA is actually less versatile than +10 STR which does the same thing (and more besides) for the same END cost.

 

I probably would not allow CSLs bought like this...or I'd probably require they're the more expensive ones, like All HTH.  Skills normally should not be purchased in a framework, as they're a Special power.  

Also, your math is off.  The +2 DCs on the HKA is 10;  the DI is 4, and the REC is 1.  That only leaves 5 points for +1 OCV.  Or are you saying that the 2nd green ONLY gives OCV?  Those "amplifying" combinations generally don't work on the math.

 

You're trying to translate the utterly untranslatable...completely foo, descriptive SFX by the writer...into mechanics.  If there's really all these many tweaks, I'm hearing a 60 point VPP with a 60 point control cost, no skill roll, and probably a half phase to change slots.  Granted, that's, what, 135 points....but that's the cost of extreme versatility.  How you set that pool isn't relevant t the GM;  YOU define it as swapping around those trinkets.

 

 

 

 

 

I'd definitely have to play around with a real build, but I think variable slots are workable, as long as the ratios are defined.

 

The easiest way to buy "extra DCs" is combat skill levels.  In fact, if each slot has either OCV, DCV or damage, you could remove that element from the Multipower and just buy skill levels (switching up as applicable for the trinkets used; Focus on the same basis as the Multipower for the trinkets; perhaps a minor limitation that their allocation must parallel the allocation of Multipower points).  However, on a strict application of "no skill levels in frameworks", a Gadgets VPP can't build weapons with a +1 OCV.  I'd classify "skills in a framework" as a stop sign, and skill levels as more a caution sign.  If your GM is a stickler in that regard, the bonus OCV and DCV is easily achieved by purchasing the "Characteristics" power, but DC now has to be defined based on the attack to be augmented.  That's simple if they are all STR-based, though.

 

6 hours ago, dialNforNinja said:

 

A form change takes OOO about ten seconds (0:29 to ~0:39 there, uncertain as it ends off-camera with just the sound effects playing) when the camera is paying attention, but he doesn't have to stand around waiting for it; even switching them and using the scanner thingy he often does it while running or jumping. A half phase action actually seems too fast for that even only counting while his hands are occupied, but it's necessary to be able to take Move actions at the same time, right? Or does it work like Extra Time (Only to activate) where you can move around but not attack?

 

If nothing happens in that 10 seconds, then I chalk it up to artistic license and it is a zero phase action.  If he has to stall for time, dodge around, etc. while waiting for the form change to kick in, then it is actually taking time in-game.  Setting a phase/segment at 1 second is just an effort to align game actions with the passage of time.

 

When a timer is ticking down in the source material, it does not typically align with Hero System phases and seconds very well.

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1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

If nothing happens in that 10 seconds, then I chalk it up to artistic license and it is a zero phase action.  If he has to stall for time, dodge around, etc. while waiting for the form change to kick in, then it is actually taking time in-game.  Setting a phase/segment at 1 second is just an effort to align game actions with the passage of time.

 

When a timer is ticking down in the source material, it does not typically align with Hero System phases and seconds very well.

Not only do things often happen during a form change, multiple episodes show the FX spinning around him blocking enemy attacks while it's happening. While sensible from an in-universe enchantment design perspective, I'm not sure how you'd even try to represent that in Hero, though, and it's not really an iconic part of the power like doing it on the move so I wasn't going to worry about it.

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8 minutes ago, Greywind said:

A linked Barrier.

Non-Anchored and Mobile would cover it as long as "moves with the character" overrides "must stay linked with the ground" and only having 12m of speed, I guess. How much would the Limitation of "only while waiting for the VPP to change" be worth? I could see it being argued either way, as barely more than fluff for having attacks "blocked" instead of "dodged," or patching a significant weakness with most other combat options locked out during the specific time it appears.

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I got sidetracked a little into thinking about a simpler mode change example - General Grievous, with his ability to switch between two and four arms. Obviously Multiform is overkill here, but does Extra Limbs and a point of Speed as a Unified Power limited by Only In Alternate ID (4-arms mode) sound fair?

 

Does he need to buy the Ambidextrous and Two Weapon Fighting talents twice to cover four arms? I'm guessing no, since the Extra Limbs power is for any number of extras. What about Animated Greivous' (or X-Men Beast's) ability to use their feet as hands? Still covered by Ambi+2WF?

 

Would you use some kind of martial arts maneuver for his "spin those blades like you're a V-22 Osprey" move, just use the IC as fluff for a multiple attack action, or a combination?

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