PRE attacks - making a display vs just buying more PRE

[dialNforNinja]

So, say I have a character with Alter Environment in a small radius to raise wind one level and make small objects levitate with 1 TK STR, Image (Sight group) Only To Create Light & Fixed Effect: glowing aura around the user, and 1m of Flight with Megascale 1m=1km so at SPD 3 they can travel 900kph non-combat. Total of 10 Real Points, or twenty-something Active Points - I don't remember exactly.

I have them zoom (or at least skydive and catch themselves with the combat movement) down out of the sky in full shounen power-up mode and make a Presence attack to awe or intimidate. Obviously this should get some kind of bonus, but how much?

Would it equal the effect of just spending those points on PRE Only For Presence Attacks? Is there even anything else to do with PRE so that's a valid Limitation? Real Points or Active Points?

Can I fluff the PRE as having the same FX as the AE and Image if not? Would the character still be able to clear a cloud of dust or collect loose change without bending over?

[Grailknight]

Whether or not it's going to get X number of d6 of PRE Attack is a GM call, dependent on the many factors and variables. Just as an easy example from DBZ,  making that entrance to say Yamcha or Krillin would have a much greater effect than to Goku or Vegeta.  You could expect the same 1- 3d6 you'd get for any other power demonstration or violent act.

 

If you haven't seen anything else to do with PRE, your game either is way too focused on combat or one that let's the player's words override their character's abilities in role playing events. Take a closer look at the skill list.

[dialNforNinja]

Yeah, I was seriously over-reaching my familiarity with the system trying to start a game myself, but no one in the area plays anything but PF, D&D, or Magic The Gathering, and that was before covid shut the game shop down. It was still a huge downer to have two out of four people who thought a superhero game sounded like it could be fun call off, and the other two actually in the shop but too addicted to MtG to come over and play.

I seriously should have thought of skills, I've gone through them a couple of times in the last week. Eh, sometimes you have to get the foolish questions out of your system to move on to better thinking I guess. Thanks for responding anyway!

[unclevlad]

If in many cases, the characters we build tend to reflect "things I really wish I could do!"....the PRE skills are some of my favorites.  

[dsatow]

While using the menu and a liberal GM, a basic presence attack can easily get up to 8-12d6 for even a 15 PRE character, most GMs usually only give out a bonus of say 2-3d6.  A lot of players will compensate by buying powers (PRE or striking appearance) to beef their presence attacks up.  From everything from killing intent you see in anime/manga to teeth sparkling when they smile, both of which I've seen on characters.

[dialNforNinja]

There's a fair few Powers I'd think you could justify as Killing Intent - straight PRE attacks of course, but also Drain or Suppress DEX or EGO, Entangle, even Mental Illusion for "see visions of your death" or Mental Blast with how it can Stun and knock weaker targets out entirely. I'm sure there's even more than that with a closer look.

I don't know, it just really seems like the RP element of putting an a show IC should be rewarded more than buying a line on the character sheet, but (as I run into over and over again) I do seem to keep coming at things backwards in HERO, despite how much its structure and granularity appeal to me compared to squishy-soft modern "narrative based" games like FATE, even as it maintains flexibility class and level systems like D&D and its innumerable imitators can't begin to approach.

(I did wibble on some more here, but Gold Leader reminded me to stay on target)

[dsatow]

21 hours ago, dialNforNinja said:

(I did wibble on some more here, but Gold Leader reminded me to stay on target)

 

Yeah, but look at what happened to gold leader.  🤣

[dialNforNinja]

He... didn't get e-shouted at by forum moderators for drifting off topic?

[Rails]

Drifting off topic?  US?  Never!

 

Seriously, it seems rare for a thread here NOT to go off topic.

[IndianaJoe3]

On 8/26/2020 at 10:52 AM, dialNforNinja said:

So, say I have a character with Alter Environment in a small radius to raise wind one level and make small objects levitate with 1 TK STR, Image (Sight group) Only To Create Light & Fixed Effect: glowing aura around the user, and 1m of Flight with Megascale 1m=1km so at SPD 3 they can travel 900kph non-combat. Total of 10 Real Points, or twenty-something Active Points - I don't remember exactly.

I have them zoom (or at least skydive and catch themselves with the combat movement) down out of the sky in full shounen power-up mode and make a Presence attack to awe or intimidate. Obviously this should get some kind of bonus, but how much?

Would it equal the effect of just spending those points on PRE Only For Presence Attacks? Is there even anything else to do with PRE so that's a valid Limitation? Real Points or Active Points?

Can I fluff the PRE as having the same FX as the AE and Image if not? Would the character still be able to clear a cloud of dust or collect loose change without bending over?

 

I would give it +1d6 for an exhibition of power, and +1d6 for a good description.

 

Buying PRE will always be a better value (and less complicated) than buying other powers for the sole purpose of using them in PRE attacks. 

[Tech]

The GM has the final say-so but you get potentially get:

 

+1d6 if target is surprised

+1d6 for exhibiting power

+1-2d6 if appropriate or very appropriate (the bad guy knows he's got this coming to him)

+1-2d6 if character makes appropriate Interaction skill

 

I don't see you doing a violent action but that depends on the special effects of your power. If it looks violent:

+1-3d6 for Violent/Extremely Violent/Incredibly Violent action

[archer]

On 8/28/2020 at 7:00 AM, IndianaJoe3 said:

 

I would give it +1d6 for an exhibition of power, and +1d6 for a good description.

 

Buying PRE will always be a better value (and less complicated) than buying other powers for the sole purpose of using them in PRE attacks. 

 

I've always wanted to build a villain with 1d6 Flash, Penetrating, Triggers when hit with a PRE attack.

 

He'd be all like, "Yeah, you might be Captain Fracking America with your awesome PRE attack against me but how do you feel now, bee-itch?"

[dialNforNinja]

"Oh, you wanna steal my spotlight? Okay, have fun with that."

[unclevlad]

Or the Utterly Contemptuous Sneer, defined as Reflect Presence Attack.

[Spence]

On 8/26/2020 at 4:46 PM, dialNforNinja said:

but (as I run into over and over again) I do seem to keep coming at things backwards in HERO

 

I wouldn't say backwards, rather approaching from the traditional everything is pre-built RPG direction. 

 

Traditional RPGs try to be pre-balanced and present the players with all the choices canned and ready to use.  Since your options to build a PC are pre-defined, most people flip through the rulebook selecting "cool options" and then tack on as many as they can using them to "define" the character.

 

HERO is different.  I always advise new players to write up their character concept and abilities in plain language.  Don't look at the book during this process.

 

Once the character concept is established you can begin building.  The thing is there are so many different ways to build things focusing in on the "name" of the power can actually be wrong.  I never pick up the rulebook until I have a solid concept. 

 

Also, try to look at the characters powers collectively, not individually.  That will also impact how you construct things. 

 

A final thought.  HERO has few in stone rules.  Read the toolkit paragraphs.  It is like the killing attack multiple.  I haven't gamed with anyone that uses the 1d3 multiple.  it is great for accountants that like everything tidy and boring. 

[dialNforNinja]

3 hours ago, Spence said:

I wouldn't say backwards, rather approaching from the traditional everything is pre-built RPG direction.

Eh, not really though? I've played a lot more Mekton than anything else, which is only slightly less DIY than Hero. The problem is that I think about things from an in-character perspective, and building in Hero absolutely requires thinking it through OOC, because you can't trim your beard with a lightsaber unless you add a Cosmetic Transform (Hairy target to clean shaven, Cumulative, Partial Transform) no matter how badass you are IC.

 

... and shaving your target with a weapon would be one heck of a "violent display" for PRE attacks. to bring it back around to the original topic. Zorro's Z marks are a classic for a reason after all.

[Grailknight]

19 hours ago, dialNforNinja said:

Eh, not really though? I've played a lot more Mekton than anything else, which is only slightly less DIY than Hero. The problem is that I think about things from an in-character perspective, and building in Hero absolutely requires thinking it through OOC, because you can't trim your beard with a lightsaber unless you add a Cosmetic Transform (Hairy target to clean shaven, Cumulative, Partial Transform) no matter how badass you are IC.

 

... and shaving your target with a weapon would be one heck of a "violent display" for PRE attacks. to bring it back around to the original topic. Zorro's Z marks are a classic for a reason after all.

 

Builds like that are more exercises of using the rules for learning. No one(at least I hope not) actually plays Hero at this level of detail and nit picking. Worry about the costs of things that directly affect combat. Everything else can be either hand waved or taken care of with the Power Skill if you feel you must.

[Greywind]

If the only things that need to be costed are the things that directly affect combat, 99% of the Skills are useless.

[Ninja-Bear]

50 minutes ago, Greywind said:

If the only things that need to be costed are the things that directly affect combat, 99% of the Skills are useless.

Well depending on style of game and what edition, yeah maybe though 90% useless.

[Grailknight]

I was speaking of builds, Skills are drag and drop.

[dsatow]

Isn’t mundane stuff what the power pool called Wealth is for?

[dialNforNinja]

7 hours ago, Grailknight said:

 

Builds like (a lightsaber you can shave with) are more exercises of using the rules for learning. No one(at least I hope not) actually plays Hero at this level of detail and nit picking. Worry about the costs of things that directly affect combat. Everything else can be either hand waved or taken care of with the Power Skill if you feel you must.

... are you saying that as a GM, if I as a player told you I'm going to make PRE attack by otherwise harmlessly giving the opponent a nice trim and feather with my lightsaber, you wouldn't (at best) impose a massive penalty on that attack roll to NOT burn and/or just cut the top of his head off, in the LACK of such a Transform alternate mode? Heck, even actually doing the Kyle Katarn idle animation and trimming my own beard just for the sake of it? Because I can't think of a single game I've played in, in any system, where that would fly. Theoretically maybe Exalted, but I've never played Exalted.

[Oruncrest]

10 hours ago, dialNforNinja said:

... are you saying that as a GM, if I as a player told you I'm going to make PRE attack by otherwise harmlessly giving the opponent a nice trim and feather with my lightsaber, you wouldn't (at best) impose a massive penalty on that attack roll to NOT burn and/or just cut the top of his head off, in the LACK of such a Transform alternate mode? Heck, even actually doing the Kyle Katarn idle animation and trimming my own beard just for the sake of it? Because I can't think of a single game I've played in, in any system, where that would fly. Theoretically maybe Exalted, but I've never played Exalted.

In combat, I'd have you make 2 rolls: Roll-to-Hit, because the target very likely won't stand there and let you do the "Shave and a Haircut" gag. And a PS: Jedi Knight Roll (no minuses unless the target figures out what you doing and makes a DEX roll to avoid it (but if he's never seen you do it before, how would he know?)) because while it's cool, it's not worth a huge outlay of points for the effect, and a Jedi should have spent a few points for the PS if only to fake being a Jedi...

[unclevlad]

13 hours ago, dialNforNinja said:

... are you saying that as a GM, if I as a player told you I'm going to make PRE attack by otherwise harmlessly giving the opponent a nice trim and feather with my lightsaber, you wouldn't (at best) impose a massive penalty on that attack roll to NOT burn and/or just cut the top of his head off, in the LACK of such a Transform alternate mode? Heck, even actually doing the Kyle Katarn idle animation and trimming my own beard just for the sake of it? Because I can't think of a single game I've played in, in any system, where that would fly. Theoretically maybe Exalted, but I've never played Exalted.

 

I'd be more inclined to tell the player to stop jerking me, and my game, around.

 

You're building straw men.  Make it a sensible situation and action.

[Grailknight]

19 hours ago, dialNforNinja said:

... are you saying that as a GM, if I as a player told you I'm going to make PRE attack by otherwise harmlessly giving the opponent a nice trim and feather with my lightsaber, you wouldn't (at best) impose a massive penalty on that attack roll to NOT burn and/or just cut the top of his head off, in the LACK of such a Transform alternate mode? Heck, even actually doing the Kyle Katarn idle animation and trimming my own beard just for the sake of it? Because I can't think of a single game I've played in, in any system, where that would fly. Theoretically maybe Exalted, but I've never played Exalted.

 

One, it's a PRE Attack, you describe what you're doing to the GM and he decides if it's a viable one and how many d6 you get.

 

Two, it's a PRE Attack, if you're making an attack roll for any reason, then you've started combat. If you feel that an attack roll is necessary to do this action then it's probably combat. Not to say you can't make a PRE Attack after the shaving but you'd get minuses for being in combat along with the pluses for the action in that scenario.

 

Three, I've never played in a system where routine acts required a roll, except Rolemaster and that system is famous for it's insane chances to fumble. If you really feel this ability is worth points, then use  the Power Skill. It's there so your can character can do little repeatable tricks the GM doesn't want to hand wave so you don't have to build every little thing.