Created creatures

[Gandalf970]

The Necromancer in our group has created a Vampire and is looking create some Skeletons.  We are using the rules as written in the 6th edition Grimoire.  We got to talking about how many you can have and how long they last and if you have to control them.  There is no control required but my take on it is that the cost of goods and not really being able to actively use all of them is kind of the limiting factor.

 

If you decide to create 1000 skeletons (which is a spell) you have to have 1000 sets of bones and then what do you do with them.  It is the same concept with the Vampire spell as there is an option to create 16, but you have to have caskets, places to hide them even though all are Slavishly Devoted they will be sitting around and having to feed so I feel it creates more in game issues then worrying about controlling them.

 

The control is managed by the fact that you cannot do that much with your own character as you are using all of these to do your work.  

 

Is this how you see it?  Have you had issues with this aspect?  Coming from other games they were always worried about controlling creatures but I would like the communities thoughts on these issues.  Please let me know how you see this in your campaign.  Thanks as always.

[mallet]

Well, it does depend on why the Character summoned them at that time, in the first place. 

 

Remember, even Slavishly Devoted Followers only have so many Tasks they can/will preform ( 1 per Ego of the caster) before leaving or maybe falling apart in the skeletons case, or turning to dust in the vampire's. 

 

So, for example, if the Necromancer has an Ego of 20 then each summoned being can/will preform 20 tasks before leaving. 

 

As per the rules, if the Necromancer had them just hanging around "on guard duty" then each day without combat counts as a Task. So if nothing happens for 20 days, then at the end of that all the skeletons would fall apart or wander off, because all their tasks are done. 

If 10 days in a big battle happens, then the skeletons would have 10 Tasks left, which equals 10 phases of combat (each phase of combat counts as one task) before falling apart or wandering off. 

 

Also, per the rules, the summoned beings do take up the actual space needed, so a 1000 skeletons would take up a 1000 hexes/squares and each hex/square is 2mx2m. So that is a lot of space needed for them, roughly the size of an NFL football field if my rough math is correct. And that is all of them just standing there, unmoving, and waiting. 

 

The smarter the beings (like the Vampires) the more detailed or complex the commands given to them can be. So the vampires could be given better commands then just "guard this area", but they still only have 20 Tasks they can preform before dying or going off on their own. So for example, with the Vampires, maybe the necromancer wants them to guard inside his tower (while the skeletons guard outside his tower) he can tell them the same thing, guard this tower and me. And the vampires would, but they would also need to sleep (so would need caskets, but those are easy to come by or make)  and have blood to feed on or they would grow weaker (this doesn't need to be human blood, could be animal blood. And they only need to feed once a week, so only twice in the max 20 days the necromancer would have them). But for the most part they are intelligent beings and can fend for themselves, not needing to be directly controlled or micro-managed. They would just hang out, follow the rules the necromancer set in place (don't feed on the other players), and if anything happened would fight to the death to protect the necromancer and the tower (with however remaining tasks they had in combat phases), and then turn to dust or take off on their own. 

 

So to sum up, if the necromancer, fearing attack, decides to summon a thousands skeletons and 16 vampires to protect him and his home, then all he would need to say to the skeletons is stand guard outside and fight anyone one that comes here. And then the skeletons would just stand outside, remaining still, until something approached and then they would swarm it, and any remaining skeletons would go back to just standing there and waiting, until their tasks ran out or something else came for them to fight. The vampires on the other hand, could be told the same thing, "Guard me and this building", and then they would do so, but they would be like normal guards or house guests, able to wander around, talk, hangout, read books, etc... they would sleep and feed when they need to, but otherwise be ready for an attack if/when it came, and if nothing happened after 20 days they would turn to dust or wander off to do their own thing.

 

So the big limiting factor is the EGO of the caster as that is how many Tasks the summoned beings will preform or if nothing happens how many days they will hang around, or some combo of both. But the summoned beings don't need to be micro-managed for simple tasks like "guard this area" and the smarter the summoned being is the more flexibility and decision making they can do on their own while following the command. 

[Gandalf970]

Thank you so much mallet. I am just beginning my Hero adventures and this is so helpful!  It really makes a lot of sense to me now!

[mallet]

Happy to help!

 

If the character does want to have a permanent Skeleton or Vampire assistant/guard or what not they should build them as a follower (and remember you can double the number of followers you have for +5 points, just like equipment)

[Tom Cowan]

the follower park (with the 5 points for 2x the number of followers for lots of skeletons) is another way

some one beat my as I typed

[Thia Halmades]

I have something to add here.

 

That answer was freakin’ epic. *slow clap* @mallet Bloody good show.

 

Get it? Vampire? Bloody? Because they drink blood? Amirite? Guys?

 

Where are you going?

 

Hey wait up!!

 

Moving on!

 

If I’m understanding the rule right, upon summon you get assignable tasks based on EGO, your Necromancer can purchase EGO, Only to Assign Tasks to Summoned Creatures, (-1). Why -1? Because he’s going to use it freaking constantly. As an aside to that aside, I generally don’t allow purchasing of stats over and above beyond 2x the base; so in a world of NCM, where they bought to 20, I’m going to keep the total possible at 40. One thing I learned early in HERO — you must set limits. Because players be like ‘wooooo!’ And you have to be all ‘noooooooo. Seriously, Chris, no, you cannot do that. Because it’ll break the game, that’s why. No, we’re not going to test it. Dude, seriously...”

 

(actual conversation, actually held multiple times).

(with the same freakin’ guy).

[Scott Ruggels]

I’d disagree with the one task per day. I’d say one task; so the skeleton will perform its task until given a new one  More 20 charges in thinking so that  Castle Grimdark has  it’s skeletal guards patrolling the halls or  standing still in reserve until called ect. in perpetuity, but the skeletal Army would have a problem as they would have a range limitation due to March. Then guard the camp while The necromancer and his meat minions sleep, then march. It would have a range of 10 cycles max, and leave no tasks left to attack Castle Brightsun. I’d treat it more like a limited stack programming exercise.  
 

The Vampire; I’d treat as it going off on its own at the end of its service, but for lore reasons, if the creating necromancer is killed, so does the Vampire die. 

 

[Thia Halmades]

The text says this:

 

The GM decides what constitutes 
a “task” for purposes of Summon. For 
combat, each Phase of fighting usually 
equals one task. For ordinary house-
hold chores, carrying loads, or pulling 
wagons, each day of service normally 
qualifies as one task. Keep common 
sense, dramatic sense, and consider-
ations of game balance in mind. (6E1, 290)

 

Meaning, the GM (in this case, the Honorable @Scott Ruggels) can absolutely say “he can stand guard forever and only consume a single task,” where I would say, one of the keys of Summon is the built in degradation. Do I think each Phase of combat is a very tight time requirement? Yes, but making it a turn, or a scene, means that they can keep dudes around for a long, long time. Personally, I think that even doing nothing, just “being there” consumes a task per day, anything feels weirdly imbalanced to me.

 

Also, for the record, this is one of the things I find weirdly lacking; it’s an example of where I’m really looking for the formal, concrete, here are the examples and rules for Summon, particularly given it’s already a STOP power, but that’s not the case. Anyways. Weirdness aside. It provides the framework.

[Scott Ruggels]

I think the "stack order" programming   is one solution, but I REALLY dislike the daily degradation for thematic reasons, because if the opposition can plant undead guards for centuries or millennia around their evil valuable, then the players should be able to as well. I really bristle at allowing the enemies to play by different rules than the players.  I like it when players make complex plans and push them into operation.  This degradation rule IMO kind of nerfs Liches and Necromancers a bit too much. 

Years ago, I was in a game, where one of the players raised a skeleton,  wrapped it in bandages, dressed it in clothes, put a baby snake in the skull, and had it for his "servant/ bodyguard" for the years the campaign was active. It was a very cool trick.

 

[mallet]

18 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

I think the "stack order" programming   is one solution, but I REALLY dislike the daily degradation for thematic reasons, because if the opposition can plant undead guards for centuries or millennia around their evil valuable, then the players should be able to as well. I really bristle at allowing the enemies to play by different rules than the players.  I like it when players make complex plans and push them into operation.  This degradation rule IMO kind of nerfs Liches and Necromancers a bit too much. 

Years ago, I was in a game, where one of the players raised a skeleton,  wrapped it in bandages, dressed it in clothes, put a baby snake in the skull, and had it for his "servant/ bodyguard" for the years the campaign was active. It was a very cool trick.

 

 

It doesn't mean necessarily mean that the players are playing with different rules, there are advantages that allow for adding an increasing number of tasks(duration), so it could be that the "Bad Guys" just have more powerful spells. Or, more likely, the creatures/minions they created weren't done via the Summoning power but rather by other power builds/rules in the system (like Followers, etc...) or via Narrative/non-rules means. Nothing prevents a character good or bad from somehow "befriending" an NPC or animal or monster and having it be loyal to them or stick around an area or work for them. If a character becomes a King of a region I wouldn't make him spend points on having all the citizens and soldiers under his/her rule be followers or "summoned" or anything. They would buy the Lordship fringe benefit to the appropriate level and then get the benefits and hassles that come with it. 

 

So a evil necromancer that has an army of undead skeletons working for him might have just bought up the appropriate level of Lordship Fringe Benefit and his troops/citizens are the undead in his area of control. 

 

I don't think the Summoning Power was built as a way to create permanent followers. They are other rules in the game for that. 

[Scott Ruggels]

 or via Narrative/non-rules means.

3 hours ago, mallet said:

 

It doesn't mean necessarily mean that the players are playing with different rules, there are advantages that allow for adding an increasing number of tasks(duration), so it could be that the "Bad Guys" just have more powerful spells. Or, more likely, the creatures/minions they created weren't done via the Summoning power but rather by other power builds/rules in the system (like Followers, etc...)

Possible, but a bit of a dodge IMO< especially if the assumption for the game is a "Hard magic" i.e. tool based magic system. (IMO< I also think tthat soft magic isn't a good fit for FH, as FH.

 

3 hours ago, mallet said:

 

or via Narrative/non-rules means.

 

THIS!!! THIS  is what i foind highly objectionable in a magic system, this is a "different" rule than the players.

 

3 hours ago, mallet said:

Nothing prevents a character good or bad from somehow "befriending" an NPC or animal or monster and having it be loyal to them or stick around an area or work for them.

No, but I don't see a skeleton, as a friend (unless there are rules for "uplifted" skeletons_. I could see them paying a Vampire, to keep an eye on things.

 

3 hours ago, mallet said:

If a character becomes a King of a region I wouldn't make him spend points on having all the citizens and soldiers under his/her rule be followers or "summoned" or anything. They would buy the Lordship fringe benefit to the appropriate level and then get the benefits and hassles that come with it. 

 

I am still thinking that this is a dodge, or "Different Rules". Kingship, Divine Right, Blasphemous rite, or a vote of the people, doesn't matter, as they are using different rules, that what is available to the player, which to me is the root of the objection.

 

 

3 hours ago, mallet said:

 

So a evil necromancer that has an army of undead skeletons working for him might have just bought up the appropriate level of Lordship Fringe Benefit and his troops/citizens are the undead in his area of control. 

 

See: above.

 

3 hours ago, mallet said:

 

I don't think the Summoning Power was built as a way to create permanent followers. They are other rules in the game for that. 

 

They aren't "Permanent Followers".  They are somewhat flimsy, stack ordered robots with some rudimentary hardwar commands, that you put in place. They aren't "followers" they are semi-autonomous drones, except as fantasy. of course there are all sorts of ways to build and define skeleton armies. This is Hero after All, I just think, thematically that skeleton guards that  "Walk the permimeter, untile confronted by Non authorized  beings, then fight!  should have a short duration of less than centuries, or until destroyed.

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

To Mallet's point, what prevents the PC necromancer spending points on Lordship just like the King of the Realm does? 

 

The GM deciding that NPCs can invest those points and PCs can't means the two are playing by different rules.

 

Setting the point cost so high that the PCs can't afford it, then giving the King extra points so he can is also different rules for the NPC.  How did he earn all those CP?

 

PCs have a lot more CP, and gain xp much faster than, most NPCs.  But a few NPCs have way more points that the PCs, and/or are allowed to break campaign limits when PCs are not.  That's also different rules for PCs than NPCs.  So a lot depends on how you define the two.

 

Both PCs and NPCs can find and keep magic items.  All we have to do is presume that musty old scroll that the NPC Necromancer unearthed was a Magic Item bestowing the power of creating Undead Armies that last, rather than an in-game reason that he could spend the CP and learn a spell that does the same thing, and ostensibly the PCs and NPCs are playing by the same rules.

 

All I'm really saying, in all of that, is defining "playing by the same rules" is pretty tough. 

On 9/17/2020 at 9:42 AM, Scott Ruggels said:

I’d disagree with the one task per day. I’d say one task; so the skeleton will perform its task until given a new one  More 20 charges in thinking so that  Castle Grimdark has  it’s skeletal guards patrolling the halls or  standing still in reserve until called ect. in perpetuity, but the skeletal Army would have a problem as they would have a range limitation due to March. Then guard the camp while The necromancer and his meat minions sleep, then march. It would have a range of 10 cycles max, and leave no tasks left to attack Castle Brightsun. I’d treat it more like a limited stack programming exercise.  

 

If we accept that "guard the castle killing all outsiders but not my meat allies" is one command, why isn't "accompany my where I travel and attack my enemies" one command which can be maintained in perpetuity"?  Sounds like we end up with players trying to write commands like those old D&D "wish that covers every interpretation you could possibly use to screw me over in granting the wish" exercises.

[Thia Halmades]

It’s why I outlawed wish. Just didn’t exist in my games. 

 

I get where you’re coming from @Scott Ruggels, however I actively side with Mallet and Hugh on this issue; to me your argument says “we are all equal and must all be playing by the same rules which I should have complete and total insight to.” That may not be what you’re saying, but that’s what I keep pulling out as the underpinning “core” of your objection. I can’t have infinite summoned MOBs, neither can they.

 

This next bit is said without snark, and I want to say that because a) I’m easy to misinterpret and b) people get sensitive and I’m trying to be mindful of that. There are a ton of completely legal ways to get “Summon a Lich-Load of Skeletons,” in addition to the various mentions people gave. Some general things:

 

NCM applies to players, not monsters, meaning, a monster has as many CP as it needs to satisfy its special effect(s). So my troll needs 50 STR because it’s a troll? Cool. That’s already outside of what a player can have (by my own post) because I can account for game balance as a GM for what I build, but I cannot anticipate every permutation of what a PC will come up with. 

 

Summon Skeletons, Trigger; when this tomb is disturbed, and the password is not uttered (PS: there’s no need to ever tell anyone there’s a password, it could just as easily be “and it ain’t me, guys” THEN, Summon Skeletal Horde and Attack. Is it wonky? Sure it is, but it’s also legal and reasonable, it’s why you’re standing there for a hot minute before t3h h0rd3 descends upon you. What this all comes down to, for me, is those two classic words, “Common and dramatic sense.” I respect the kinds of games you want to play, I just think it’s very limiting to want all games forced into that block. Doctor Doom has way more toys and resources than most heroes, including the Fantastic Four. Shoot, Darkseid has a whole planet, sub dimensions and New Gods vs... the Justice League. Like. Those odds are BAD. Having your foes have more points just means you have to utilize better team work.

 

Maybe I’m off topic at this point? It’s possible. I’m not eating today. And my stomach is slowly licking my medulla oblongata for how much salt may be required before consuming it.

[Scott Ruggels]

I think you all misunderstand. I said that all participants should use the same "legal" tools, but GMs are GMs, and as such villains can get near to unlimited points (How else are you going to build Galactus?).  What i am saying is that the the "Daily Decay", feels very very wrong for a fantasy game, especially in a game where both sides have "animated skeletons" available as a spell. IF there are different spells, the Heroes should , with research, be able to figure out that second spell.  Privileging the villains with "special powers" is too much like D&D.  Villain powers should not be special, no more than a huge surplus of points.

[Thia Halmades]

22 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

I think you all misunderstand. I said that all participants should use the same "legal" tools, but GMs are GMs, and as such villains can get near to unlimited points (How else are you going to build Galactus?).  What i am saying is that the the "Daily Decay", feels very very wrong for a fantasy game, especially in a game where both sides have "animated skeletons" available as a spell. IF there are different spells, the Heroes should , with research, be able to figure out that second spell.  Privileging the villains with "special powers" is too much like D&D.  Villain powers should not be special, no more than a huge surplus of points.

I apologize. I’ve read through this reply but my interpretation has it as self-contradictory. GMs can build Galactus, but special powers is too much like D&D? To me, Summon is about calling temporary allies, and this sets the mechanical limit. You could certainly bake in a “command refresh,” upon recasting, but other than saying you don’t like it, which I acknowledge, I’m not following a specific objection. 

[Duke Bushido]

I believe I get it; he's pretty straight-forward about it:

 

The necromancer has to accept that his skeletons decay.  That's fine.  It sucks if you paid full points to summon some skeletons and use them to guard a few things while you are away on adventure, but it's fine-- so long as the bad guy's skeletons decay, too. 

 

If the bad guy can post a phalanx deep in the Mashara gorge to wait a thousand years "just in case" some party of Adventurers decides to sneak in though the old storm sewer outlet, that's fine, too.  Right up until the only skeletons i can summon and ever will be able to summon start dropping phalanges next week and can't hold a sword at month's end. 

 

The Galactus reference was pretty easy to follow, as he prefaced it with comments as to how the NPCs and villains have as many points as they need (how else would you build Galactus?) 

 

Scott seems to have no problem with points disparity.  The issue is "special rules for the bad guys, rules to which the PCs will never have access." 

 

If Captain Psyche has an 8d6 Mind Control, the problem is not that Mind Mangler has 24d6 Mind Control  (I mean, besides the problem that this makes him terrifying  );  the problem is when Mind Mangler's has an Auto fire or Armor Piercing that has been disallowed to PCs, or that he just has Reduced End without buying it, or that for him any "1" he rolls on his dice counts as a "6".....

 

The takeaway I got from his commentary is plainly a problem with "Rules Set A for player characters; Rules Set B for everyone else." 

 

And I tend to agree with him.   I understand that not everyone needs super-crunchy mechanics for every part of their game, but the problem is that those of us who play _because_ of the built-in fairness of such a system ( no" save versus rolling up a new character" in Hero) take offense when this mechanical fairness is removed. 

 

 

At least, that's what I got out of it. 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

On 10/3/2020 at 2:07 PM, Scott Ruggels said:

I think you all misunderstand. I said that all participants should use the same "legal" tools, but GMs are GMs, and as such villains can get near to unlimited points (How else are you going to build Galactus?).  What i am saying is that the the "Daily Decay", feels very very wrong for a fantasy game, especially in a game where both sides have "animated skeletons" available as a spell. IF there are different spells, the Heroes should , with research, be able to figure out that second spell.  Privileging the villains with "special powers" is too much like D&D.  Villain powers should not be special, no more than a huge surplus of points.

 

One element I really like about Hero is statting out the powers of the adversaries makes it easier to assess just how powerful this ability might be.  If I am thinking "pretty minor", but it comes out at 150 AP, what am I missing?

 

But I don't think the question here is "is there a problem that Summon decays" so much as "is this actually Summon?"

 

IIRC, you can pay +5 points to double Followers.  Make the spell Skeleton Follower, +50 points for x 1,024 Skeletons and you have an Undead Horde that does not degrade over time.

 

Would I let a player spend, say, 75 hard-saved xp on the same spell?  Wow that will be a fun game..."OK, Skeleton 73 makes a half move forward and delays...where did Skeleton 74 get to?"

[Beast]

what about adding trigger to summons
then they are called upon when needed and the trigger can reset when the 1st set are destroyed
and to stop the reset you need to throw the skulls or torsos out of the summon area(where they rise from)

[Ninja-Bear]

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

And  tend to agree with him.   I understand that not everyone needs super-crunchy mechanics for every part of their game, but the problem is that those of us who play _because_ of the built-in fairness of such a system ( no" save versus rolling up a new character" in Hero) take offense when this mechanical fairness is removed. 

Sorry Duke but Hero doesn’t have a built in fairness. I’ve died (except by GM intervention) in too many games to know this is true. The GM can try to level the game the best he can. And I’ve seen players who know how to work the system to make certain abilities more efficient than the points suggest. 

[Duke Bushido]

24 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Sorry Duke but Hero doesn’t have a built in fairness. I’ve died (except by GM intervention) in too many games to know this is true. The GM can try to level the game the best he can. And I’ve seen players who know how to work the system to make certain abilities more efficient than the points suggest. 

Mechanics; sorry for the confusion.

 

Hero has a mechanic for everything.  Being "Fair" is not the same as "I won't die."  It's not the same as "I won't get hurt" or "my character will advance to become a great and powerful player in this realm."

 

Being fair means that there is an available mechanic.   To keep it fair, use that mechanic for _everyone_, or for _no one_.  Problematically, using it for no one is as unfair as using it for only one side.  As you said, your GM has saved you from certain death more than once.   Unless he did the same for the NPCs, he's not being particularly fair about it.   Using the same mechanic on both sides is fair.  One lives; one dies; both live; both die.  That's a matter of the _dice_, and not the mechanic.  We use the dice because they are completely impartial.  We use the mechanics to make sure the dice are being applied in the same way to everyone.

 

It's built-in fairness.

[Scott Ruggels]

5 hours ago, Thia Halmades said:

I apologize. I’ve read through this reply but my interpretation has it as self-contradictory. GMs can build Galactus, but special powers is too much like D&D? To me, Summon is about calling temporary allies, and this sets the mechanical limit. You could certainly bake in a “command refresh,” upon recasting, but other than saying you don’t like it, which I acknowledge, I’m not following a specific objection. 

 

Duke understood it perfectly. Heroes and Villains use the same mechanics and the same rules, but not the same number of points.  Point disparities have been a thing since Champions first edition and have been accepted. The problem is different MECHANICS between Heroes and Villains, and that is my objection in a HERO based game. If  the villain Necromancer's skeleton army can last thousands of years, standing guard over his Phylactery, but the Hero Wizards  10 or 20 Skeletons last a day, when they are in lore supposedly the same spell, that is unacceptable.  If they are different spells , with different machanics, that's fine, and a different situation.  IF both the Necromancer, and the Wizard both have the same spell, and in both cases the skeletons collapse into dust in 20-40 days, than I find that pretty unacceptable and useless for thematic reasons. It's the decay, in general I object to.  Is this clearer?

[Thia Halmades]

@Scott Ruggels Yes, that is clearer. I agree in principle, that if two people are using the exact same spell, they should absolutely get the same results. I think, for me, I saw the loop as being more about the higher power overall, rather than the specifics of, say, “Summon Monster III.” But I understand that for you, Summon isn’t your jam, and I respect that.

[Hugh Neilson]

It's Hero, where we reason from effect.  Summon, at its base, quickly conjures up a potential ally for the heroes.  You want more than one?  That's and adder.  You want them to always be friendly?  Then you need an advantage.  For Skeletons, that's +1 for Slavishly Loyal.  You want more tasks?  Isn't it +1/4 to double them?

 

Wow, that's getting expensive for Skeletons who will guard the Keep of the Dead for decades or centuries.  Well, that Necromancer has all the points he needs, right?  Unlike PCs, who tend to be reactive, he also has all the time he needs.  Maybe summoning a thousand skeletons who will perform 36,525 days of Guarding requires Extra Time in the range of a decade.  The Necromancer cast it some time back.  Just like he has all the points he needs, he has all the time he needs.

 

Or maybe trying to use Summon (call up a short-term ally) is the wrong mechanic, and we should look to paying for 1,000 Followers instead of 1,000 Summoned Creatures.  Reasoning from effect, Followers stick around indefinitely, while Summoned beings do not.

 

There are also limits to mechanics.  How much do PCs pay for having other PCs as allies?  Sometimes NPCs help them out and they didn't spend any points for that either.  Other NPCs are adversarial, but the PCs did not get extra points for that, did they? At some point, we move from "mechanic" to "plotline".  But it's not hard to stat out an ability that provides a thousand long-lasting, obedient Skeletons.   It's just expensive.  And if it's priced outside the reach of PCs but we hand out points to NPCs so they can avoid it, well, we're still not following the same rules.  The PCs had to start at X points with Y complications, but the villain didn't.

[dmjalund]

If you buy the Keep as a base, you can buy the skeletons as followers for the base

[Tom Cowan]

How do you get replacement followers?

 

Clone them

Build more bots

Hire them from Vil-a-Tech Inc

Cast a few spells to call up your skeletons

 

Only the FX changed