On Dispel and Focus's

[Sveta8]

Good evening there! I'll get straight to it.

I was struck by a wild hair while reading over some of the powers while considering a metamorph brick character I liked the concept of, and subsequently found that a brick is difficult to do cheaply without being cheap.  Resistant armor, and regular armor too, sturdy characters in general are such a pain! You have to claw and break through it every time. I wondered if I could break it. Specifically, either normal or Resistant PD/ED.

Now, Armor, specifically PD/ED, resistant or not, usually seems to come in one of two ways. Either it is part of the character, ala there base characteristic, or nearly always a Focus. Obvious and Inaccessible. They are wearing it after all. So, I can't simply pluck it from their bodies like I would a mage's magical necklace. However, the concept of a monstrous being pouncing down, and tearing out an armored character from their metal tin can was deeply amusing, So I had to rely upon Adjustment Powers.

Drain works. Period, and unfortunately. The goal is not to weaken the opponents armor for a few moments. No, it is to tear asunder, destroy their sense of safety and drag them away kicking and screaming. So, naturally, this only left me with Dispel. Dispel stops a power until it can be reactivated. And since I have to work on a power, I can't simply target their base characteristic. This left me with only the option to hope that they have bought Resistant Protection as a Power through a Focus, and try to drain that. Which, happily, seems quite common.

However, this too hit a dead end. While Focus's can be made fragile, I have yet to find evidence in either of the Villains Book, or in the listed example powers a single instance of a fragile focus. And worse yet, Dispel then seems to mock the attempt to change a non-fragile focus. Instead of stating that it simply can't be done, it left me on a goosechance through the book to find that Indestructible Foci are treated as having Difficult to Dispel... 16 times. That means it is multiplying the active points by 65,536. Which is quite frankly absurd. Worse yet, unlike the back and forth of other Armor Piercing and Hardened where they cancel out, Armor Piercing simply cuts the PD/ED in half of the target. Now instead of dispelling a 20pt power sixty five thousand times with a 24 on the dice, I now only need 22 each time. Lovely.


So, the question, now that you know the information about it:

Is there any way to actually work to render a foe's armor ineffective? Not to make my attacks penetrative, but to make the opponents armor rendered useless?

[Ninja-Bear]

Last time I brought up something similar, the consensus was to use a Killing Attack to destroy the Armor. 
 

Btw though look at Dispel again. Unless Armor has Power Defense, all the Dispel dice go straight to “attacking” armor.

Oh and two more points.

1) Super Agents (supplement for 3rd) has ALL agent armor bought as OAF-so they could be attacked.

2) If your the GM then you could make all the Armor be fragile (or maybe just the agents) if you do will it.

[Grailknight]

You are focusing on the wrong power.

 

Transform is what you want not Dispel. Even if you managed to Dispel the target's Resistant Protection, it would come back on their next phase as a zero phase action in most cases. And remember that the Dispel is halved because you are going after a defensive power.

 

A Transform (Severe, target to target without Resistant Protection) only has to double the BODY of the target past their Power Defense. Once done the Resistant Protection is gone until the power can be healed back by whatever method you and the GM determine.

 

You probably won't have the points to tear off a characters defenses all at once but Transform is Cumulative and  if you add the Partial Transform Advantage you get the scary SFX of ripping it off piece by piece until you're done.

[archer]

Extra-Dimensional Travel usable against others which only affects the armor.

 

The SFX is that the armor is instantly replaced with a look-alike which has 0 PD/ 0ED.

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

8 hours ago, Grailknight said:

You are focusing on the wrong power.

 

Transform is what you want not Dispel. Even if you managed to Dispel the target's Resistant Protection, it would come back on their next phase as a zero phase action in most cases. 

No. When you Dispel versus a Focus, points do not come back in this fashion. 

[Ninja-Bear]

7 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

No. When you Dispel versus a Focus, points do not come back in this fashion. 

Let me correct that, with Cumulative Advantage you remove the “one roll or nothing”.

[Grailknight]

25 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

No. When you Dispel versus a Focus, points do not come back in this fashion. 

 

That depends on how the Focus is defined, which is not in-game player knowledge but Meta-knowledge possessed by the target and the GM when the power was constructed. Unless the power has some defined restart time or activation condition, it can be restarted right away. Remember, Focus not Equipment. There's a reason you pay points for one and get the other free.

 

Even in a low Fantasy Game, Dispel wouldn't work that way. You can Dispel a shield by knocking it askew on the warriors arm. But nothing in Dispel takes it away so that he can't right it on his next phase. SFX affect the user's power and it's interaction with the world, they do not change the function of the targets powers. That is game mechanics.

[Ninja-Bear]

6 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

 

That depends on how the Focus is defined, which is not in-game player knowledge but Meta-knowledge possessed by the target and the GM when the power was constructed. Unless the power has some defined restart time or activation condition, it can be restarted right away. Remember, Focus not Equipment. There's a reason you pay points for one and get the other free.

 

Even in a low Fantasy Game, Dispel wouldn't work that way. You can Dispel a shield by knocking it askew on the warriors arm. But nothing in Dispel takes it away so that he can't right it on his next phase. SFX affect the user's power and it's interaction with the world, they do not change the function of the targets powers. That is game mechanics.

Yes Dispel works that way. HSMA has a special ability called Armor Shredding Strike bought this way. And there is a reason why YOU’re paying POINTS , to remove said Armor. 

[Ninja-Bear]

17 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

 

That depends on how the Focus is defined, which is not in-game player knowledge but Meta-knowledge possessed by the target and the GM when the power was constructed. 

Not really sure of the point here. That’s the general case of everything in Hero whether Power, Skill or Ability.

[Sveta8]

10 hours ago, Grailknight said:

Transform is what you want not Dispel.

This... fundamentally is true. Looking over Transform, and what I am wanting, you are correct. I am seeking to cause a long term modification to an opponent via the destruction of their armor and protective equipment. It even goes so far as to allow a partial effects along the way, netting real results for both me and anyone else on the team without needing to completely succeed.

The only real issue I have against Transform in this way, is the efficiency of it. I could go to Major, rather than Severe Transform, but that limits the reduction of PD/ED, Resistant or not, down to a total change of 12, or at least as the recommendation. And even basic Reistant Armor seems to be 8/8, which is over this limit. However, with Severe Transform, for the same amount of points put into it, I could render whomever was the target into an unresponsive frog or chicken, or chair or so on. Far more... useful... than simply destroying armor.

 

Trying to examine the result in terms of limitations upon it however, I can help mitigate it though... -1/4 for setting the Target to an opponent with Armor might be swung, but I do not feel comfortable with that. Almost everything has armor of some sort, thus, hardly a limitation. Gestures, Both Hands for a -1/2 fits. They are working to rend the armor apart after all. Hard to do that when handcuffed. No range too makes sense for it's -1/2. They have to touch you. It still doesn't change the fact that this could be used to render the person into a statue or equally innert, but... I do not know if that would be worth a Limited Power Limitation.

The only advantage here would be Partial Change, so that it is effective even before complete. So, +1/2. Netting a total of -1/2, so Each die of Transform, Severe would cost have Active points of 22.5, and cost 11.25 Real points...

Expected aim would be 4 or 5d6, so 45 or 56 Real Points, with End cost of 9 or 11. Expensive, but very useful. All but impossible to put into a Multipower though, Active points of 90 or 112 and all.

[Grailknight]

22 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Not really sure of the point here. That’s the general case of everything in Hero whether Power, Skill or Ability.

 

The point is that the HMSA attack may not be viable in all campaigns and may not work under many circumstances.

 

That example is a specific case that would not make sense if I paid for my Resistant Defense with points and defined it as a Force Field that i, turn on and off by spending END. The Dispel will knock it down for the rest of the phase and I won't have it until my next phase when I turn it on as a zero phase action. It would work on Resistant Protection bought as Armor you put on like clothing quite well though.

 

Since the OP wanted his power to work against all forms of Resistant Protection(he didn't specifically say just Focus), I used Transform which does work in every case.

[Grailknight]

Sveta8's post showed up as i was typing the word case.

 

4 minutes ago, Sveta8 said:

This... fundamentally is true. Looking over Transform, and what I am wanting, you are correct. I am seeking to cause a long term modification to an opponent via the destruction of their armor and protective equipment. It even goes so far as to allow a partial effects along the way, netting real results for both me and anyone else on the team without needing to completely succeed.

The only real issue I have against Transform in this way, is the efficiency of it. I could go to Major, rather than Severe Transform, but that limits the reduction of PD/ED, Resistant or not, down to a total change of 12, or at least as the recommendation. However, with Severe Transform, for the same amount of points put into it, I could render whomever was the target into an unresponsive frog or chicken, or chair or so on. Far more... useful... than simply destroying armor.

 

Trying to examine the result in terms of limitations upon it however, I can help mitigate it though... -1/4 for setting the Target to an opponent with Armor might be swung, but I do not feel comfortable with that. Almost everything has armor of some sort, thus, hardly a limitation. Gestures, Both Hands for a -1/2 fits. They are working to rend the armor apart after all. Hard to do that when handcuffed. No range too makes sense for it's -1/2. They have to touch you. It still doesn't change the fact that this could be used to render the person into a statue or equally innert, but... I do not know if that would be worth a Limited Power Limitation.

The only advantage here would be Partial Change, so that it is effective even before complete. So, +1/2. Netting a total of -1/2, so Each die of Transform, Severe would cost have Active points of 22.5, and cost 11.25 Real points...

Expected aim would be 4 or 5d6, so 45 or 56 Real Points, with End cost of 9 or 11. Expensive, but very useful. All but impossible to put into a Multipower though, Active points of 90 or 112 and all.

 

It is expensive but that's baked into the game as a core principle. Defenses are less expensive than attacks and reducing defenses with Adjustment Powers is less effective. Transform is the workaround for many special cases.

[Sveta8]

 

4 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

Since the OP wanted his power to work against all forms of Resistant Protection(he didn't specifically say just Focus, I used Transform which does work in every case.

If I were looking specifically for a means to render Focus's defunct, a Transform would still actually be the more effective way to go looking over the mechanics. While yes, Dispel can work against foci, if they are unbreakable, the 65,536 Active point multiplier is still an impressive bar to entry.

Transform however would allow me to generate something that has the ability to work against Unbreakable foci with reasonability.

Transform, call it 6d6, no partial effect, No Range, Gestures with Both hands, Limited Target (Obvious Foci only) Eh... -1/4? -1/2? Up to Interpritation that one. 40 or 36 Real Points, costs 9 Endurance, and effects all Foci that they can reasonably touch.

Foci are treated as having at least 1 body per PD/ED, Unbreakable ones with a Power Defense of 2x PD/ED. They have 1 PD/ED per 5 Active Points for a power in it, Which I can presume in most cases to be 50-70, so 10-14 Body. Less than most people. Unless it's Durable, which is given out for free (???) which would Double the PD/ED for free, and thus Body. Unbreakable ones then would have an expected 20 to 28 Power Defense, which makes it very difficult but not impossible to effect them.

This however would work against pretty well Any Focus that they can actually see and touch. Armor as much as Mystic Necklaces and Power Belts and Laser Guns. Which, while technically fits very close, is not exactly the aim of destroying armor. I want them to feel vulnerable, not exactly helpless. Though, I will have to consider it.

[Ninja-Bear]

29 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

 

The point is that the HMSA attack may not be viable in all campaigns and may not work under many circumstances.

True but that’s true of ANY power/build of any game.

[Ninja-Bear]

31 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

That example is a specific case that would not make sense if I paid for my Resistant Defense with points and defined it as a Force Field that i, turn on and off by spending END. The Dispel will knock it down for the rest of the phase and I won't have it until my next phase when I turn it on as a zero phase action. It would work on Resistant Protection bought as Armor you put on like clothing quite well though.

Again this is true. (Now I might’ve missed the OP that this works ALL resistant Powers). I was going with the reading of the OP of Armor.  But as a side note, if your Force Field is bought through a Focus then it can be Dispelled and broken per Focus rules. 

18 minutes ago, Sveta8 said:

 

If I were looking specifically for a means to render Focus's defunct, a Transform would still actually be the more effective way to go looking over the mechanics. While yes, Dispel can work against foci, if they are unbreakable, the 65,536 Active point multiplier is still an impressive bar to entry.

Transform however would allow me to generate something that has the ability to work against Unbreakable foci with reasonability.

You seem to be being hung up on Unbreakable. It’s Unbreakable for a reason. And how often are you going to go against Unbreakable? 

[Sveta8]

25 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

You seem to be being hung up on Unbreakable. It’s Unbreakable for a reason. And how often are you going to go against Unbreakable? 

Yes, I am caught up on Unbreakable. It is treated as the default state of Foci (as noted given the additional -1/4 of Breakable Foci) and more over, with Inaccessible Foci it makes them all but a non-limitation lest I am reading it wrong.

If a focus can neither be destroyed, or functionally stolen, then the only way to reasonably prevent the opponent from using it is to have it so they don't have the item on them in the first place. Which, while a reasonable tool in the GM's belt, it seems to me that the Players are all but unable to use this method of prevention against there foes. While it is perfectly reasonable for a Villain to sneak in and snatch away the Player's Power Glove at some point, or for the Villain to attack the Hotel that the Players are at while the Players are yet unprepared, it seems at least to my naive understanding, unthinkable that a Player might be able to engage a Villain where the Villain does not have their tools prepared, lest that is already written in as a plot point by said GM. And should a covert op be signaled to steal a Villain's Unbreakable Toy of some sort, that seems a secondary objective at best. To go in and stop the Villain, and if possible, prevent them from using their equipment, and so on.

 

As for how often am I going up against Unbreakable? I do not yet know, lacking a game to enjoy such testing. Instead, I am left examining Villians and the generated Powers, and the Described Powers in the books. Where in, I am unable to find evidence of non-Unbreakable Foci. Even going so far as checking out the Real Armor and Weapons as they are described, they aren't listed as Fragile, and thus, Unbreakable.

So how often am I going up against Unbreakable? I don't know, but unless the GM is specifically working to include them? It looks like Always.

[unclevlad]

 

4 minutes ago, Sveta8 said:

Yes, I am caught up on Unbreakable. It is treated as the default state of Foci (as noted given the additional -1/4 of Breakable Foci) and more over, with Inaccessible Foci it makes them all but a non-limitation lest I am reading it wrong.
 

 

Believe you're reading it wrong, altho as written it's not altogether clear.

 

In Hero Designer, Breakability is an optional aspect.  It has 3 options:  Fragile (-1/4), Durable (+0), and Unbreakable (+1/4).  That says the intended default is Breakable, and the text on pages 378 and 379 (Vol 1 6E) all apply.  I don't think most GMs use the rule that the armor gets blasted apart when the character's shot at...but that's GM discretion.    Even with that, taking an action to specifically target someone's armor might be allowed...or might not, as a precedent the GM doesn't want to set.

[Sveta8]

18 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

In Hero Designer, Breakability is an optional aspect.  It has 3 options:  Fragile (-1/4), Durable (+0), and Unbreakable (+1/4).  That says the intended default is Breakable, and the text on pages 378 and 379 (Vol 1 6E) all apply.  I don't think most GMs use the rule that the armor gets blasted apart when the character's shot at...but that's GM discretion.    Even with that, taking an action to specifically target someone's armor might be allowed...or might not, as a precedent the GM doesn't want to set.

Lacking Hero Designer myself, I will have to accept your word on that front. As listed on the Focus Table (Vol 1 6E, pg 380) all I am able to see is that Fragile offers an additional -1/4, and Durable imposes no change. Unbreakable, while mentioned in the text, does not appear, and does not indicate a cost in the text above. Given that is what I can see, I have based my assumptions upon such.

And Ultimately, you are correct. Even if there is found a mechanically viable method for harming armor or disabling Foci, it is all set under the GM's discretion. I may feel that preventing such is limiting in choices for the players, but if it is to better focus their efforts towards the story and game design that the GM is more comfortable writing and offering, then so be it. The goal is to enjoy the game and tell a fun story. Creating, designing, and utilizing tools that do not help in that end... well... by definition, it's not fun.

[Grailknight]

By RAW, the default for a Focus is Breakable, but then the RAW is muddled by saying that a Durable Focus is  a +0.

 

Most GM's I've played with(and myself when I run) just went with Durable as the default so that the rules gave a level playing field with no appearances of favoritism.  But it also made most too hard to break in game vs defeating the villain and just taking it.

 

I suspect it's not mentioned in any published NPC's because most people just don't think of it.

[Ninja-Bear]

24 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

By RAW, the default for a Focus is Breakable, but then the RAW is muddled by saying that a Durable Focus is  a +0.

 

Most GM's I've played with(and myself when I run) just went with Durable as the default so that the rules gave a level playing field with no appearances of favoritism.  But it also made most too hard to break in game vs defeating the villain and just taking it.

 

I suspect it's not mentioned in any published NPC's because most people just don't think of it.

That’s interesting cause I go with Breakable as default, not Durable. I see durable (in a Fantasy Game as Dwarven made 😁).  And I believe that if you look at the rules under breaking things, the rules themselves are defaulted to breakable not durable. But it’s all good.

[Sveta8]

Curiously, the rules for the breaking and messing with Foci are in fact, defaulted to Fragile, not Durable. However, as Durable simply doubles the PD/ED of the object, it is no major hassle. Amusingly, while Transform and Killing Attacks are impacted by the difference between Fragile and Durable, both Drain and Dispel are not. Granted, this sorta makes sense. Doesn't matter how sturdy the hardware is if you are trying to turn it off or lower the power running through it.

Either way, thank you all for your help! I'll be working to put out the metamorph soon then.

[unclevlad]

I don't feel like checking...does anyone know if the errata for V1 cover that omission?  Yeah, the cost isn't listed.  Oops.  It's the flip side of fragile, tho, so given that it is mentioned in the text, I'd assume +1/4...or Durable makes no sense.  Ninja:  Normal Breakable == Durable.  Durable is NOT Unbreakable.

 

Basically...what's the logic in trying to take out someone's armor physical armor?  Note that force field based, or reinforced, protection can be a target for a tech type or a wizard, cuz that's their thing anyway.  But brute physical armor is extremely hard to remove.  You want to capture the power suit operator?  Drain the suit's power, screw up the control systems, shoot off a leg or two, see if you can throw the operator into shock.  Shred the armor without taking the meat out...good luck.

 

And if you give that option to the players to use against the villains, shouldn't some villains choose to use it against the PCs?  If it's effective, anyway.  

 

One thing that I think can work...if the armor is IAF or OAF, some attacks might damage the armor, when thematically appropriate.  If so, then perhaps it gets an activation roll...start it at 17-, drop it down as more attacks kick in.

 

 

[Sveta8]

Checking what I could of the Errata, there doesn't seem to be a statement in regard to cost of Unbreakable. Granted, given that it was stated above that Hero Designer includes a +1/4 for Unbreakable, I have to presume it was patched in somewhere, and simply forgotten. Source Below.

As for the Logic in trying to take out someone Physical Armor? The short answer is because it felt thematically appropriate.

The long answer is because of the feeling evoked and as a support ability. Some behemoth of a monster is bearing down on you, but you are protected, and you know that. You can fire away your (Blast, Telekinetic force, Laser Pistol, Gun) and stand your ground. And instead of knocking you away with their meaty hands, they instead... are trying to pry that armored shell free. They aren't trying to hit you, they are trying to get you. Suddenly you are left with only the protection of your flesh (and suitable powers) left as they wrench away that armored protection. Just you and the nightmare now.

Mechanically? It's a reverse Aid. As a Metamorph Brick, it doesn't make sense to provide a bonus to others Blasts and such. That's not in the wheelhouse. But, a support sort of ability to make them deal more damage would still be appreciated. So, using overwhelming force to break apart an opponents armor means there isn't as much PD/ED in the way anymore and thus, regardless of the form of attack, more damage will be inflicted.  Sure it might be more effective to simply hammer away with another attack, but I'm not talking what is effective. There are really easy ways to build effective but not interesting sorts of fights and designs. Not only that, but people are going to have... questions... when the monsterous hero instead of going for a knockout is trying to tear the Villian free of their suit of armor. Hero's don't do that. It provides some fun plot potential if taken with Bad/Questionable Reputation or similar.

[Ninja-Bear]

Sveta8, you may have not catched it, but an OIF can be targeted to be broken. At a -2 OCV.  What’s weird is that you cannot grab said item and take it away.  And this point has been argued too. Best thing I can advise is to write up focus as you see working in your game. For example, I once wrote up a Belt which enhanced the villains powers. I defined it as OAF so my daughter could grab it and rip it off. 

[Sveta8]

Nifty! And Useful. Heck, if it is something specifically done regularly, might simply work to buy two levels of Penalty Skill Levels for that if it becomes a regular occurance. As for not being able to grab it and take it away, that is of note, but not too critical in my opinion as of yet. Thanks for the info!