Auto Fire & Damage Shield Which First?

[Life]

Hello,

 

Character "A" attacks character "B" who has a damage shield with auto fire 3 shots. Character A's attack roll will land all three shots. However, character's damage shield will be enough to knock him out after the first swing (in theory).

 

Question - Which happens first? The 2nd auto fire or the first damage shield?

[HeroGM]

Ok, I'm taking it that Character "A" is using a 3 shot autofire attack to hit Character "B" who has damage shield.

 

I would allow the character to get what he paid for (and rolled) and land all three shots. While every thing is going on in one second the damage shield is a reaction. 

 

[I'm being an @$$ I know. The way your question reads is is that the damage shield has autofire 3. It's not until the second sentence it makes it clear. And Autofire on damage shields are fun ]

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

If because if DEX Autofire goes first then all shots go at the same time. Damage Shield is activated then that attack is resolved. However the GM can rule otherwise.

[unclevlad]

The archetypal autofire is a full-auto rifle, machine pistol (Uzi), or heavier machine gun/autocannon.

 

There's no time lag between the first shot of the burst and the last shot, with these, within the game's time scales.  (An AK-47's firing rate is 600 rounds/minute, for reference.)

 

That's the baseline, then, for all autofire.  Doesn't matter if it's rounds from a gun or punches and kicks, or a triple blast from an energy projector.  I suppose you could try for a custom limitation saying they're slower than normal, but as long as they're all completed in the segment they started, I doubt it'd be worth much.  I might even just say no, because tracking "oh my second attack goes NOW." and "my third attack goes NOW" is just more hassle.

 

Note that Hero doesn't require time for movement.  If I have a 26 Dex, I'm 10 meters away from you with no obstacles, and I have 24 meters of move....I reach you and attack before you can act with your 25 Dex.  It just isn't something the system chooses to care about, save perhaps in some special pursuit situations where the GM's tweaking things for dramatic effect.

[Thia Halmades]

Ah, good question. The answer is, in short:

 

”WhyIoughta...” <Rata-tat-tat!>

*kzzzzzK*

*thud*

*thud*

 

Autofire goes off per the attack and the player resolves. Remember that in the rules, there’s no lag from shot A to shot B, it’s all special effects, and moreover, AF is an Advantage. That’s a big thing, this is a traditional “get what you pay for” scenario. Paid for full auto fists, get full auto fists.

 

But Damage McShieldy paid for Damage Shield. Resolve AF normally, then once “the attack” is completed, again, it’s a single attack that’s got an Advantage on it — resolve defenses normally. Et voila. Roast beef.

[Beast]

On 9/14/2020 at 8:51 PM, Life said:

Hello,

 

Character "A" attacks character "B" who has a damage shield with auto fire 3 shots. Character A's attack roll will land all three shots. However, character's damage shield will be enough to knock him out after the first swing (in theory).

 

Question - Which happens first? The 2nd auto fire or the first damage shield?

Does it say anywhere that a damage shield stops the attack?
does the damage shield in any way perform a block that no roll is needed to be performed?

[Life]

My villian has a Damage shield with teleport. So, yes it would stop the 2nd attack (in theory). Others have suggested writing the Teleport with a trigger instead, but I do want the heros to land a hit, then teleport (for melee).

[Beast]

55 minutes ago, Life said:

My villian has a Damage shield with teleport. So, yes it would stop the 2nd attack (in theory). Others have suggested writing the Teleport with a trigger instead, but I do want the heros to land a hit, then teleport (for melee).

How does the DS do a block maneuver with  no counter attack roll(sfx does not count)
Block is the only way to stop an attack after it lands(before the damage roll)
 

[unclevlad]

5 hours ago, Life said:

My villian has a Damage shield with teleport. So, yes it would stop the 2nd attack (in theory). Others have suggested writing the Teleport with a trigger instead, but I do want the heros to land a hit, then teleport (for melee).

 

No, it wouldn't.  There is 0 time between the first, second and third attacks.

 

The trigger suggestion IS the natural way to do this.  
Teleport however many inches

Usable As Attack

Trigger, when you're struck in melee, with whatever reset conditions you want to apply

 

Hero comes in, smacks your villain, then finds himself suddenly ELSEWHERE.

 

This isn't like D&D where the attacks are discrete.  Autofire and Multiple Attack are themselves atomic actions, even if there are multiple dice rolls involved, unless the power's purchased with some sort of Limitation changing it.  I think even the extra-time maneuvers (usually, +1 segment) wouldn't affect that;  they'd affect when the attack action goes off, but at that point, it'd be atomic.  Or disallowed within an Autofire or Multiple Attack action.

[Ninja-Bear]

@Lifeyou seem to misunderstand Autofire. It’s one to hit and by every -2 you score an extra hit. So all the shots that hit affect the character before the Damage Shield goes off. However the GM can override this.

8 hours ago, Beast said:

Block is the only way to stop an attack after it lands(before the damage roll)
 

Took me awhile to get your meaning. For clarity’s sake, Block must be declared before Attack roll is made.

[Life]

I do understand that all hits "land" but equating it to reality there would be a short pause in between. Either way, game ways it's the way it's listed above. As we're trying to keep the rules in our game as close to the book as possible, thought we'd bring it to the forms for clarity.

[Greywind]

Reality? What's that?

[unclevlad]

13 hours ago, Greywind said:

Reality? What's that?

Exactly.

 

18 hours ago, Life said:

I do understand that all hits "land" but equating it to reality there would be a short pause in between. Either way, game ways it's the way it's listed above. As we're trying to keep the rules in our game as close to the book as possible, thought we'd bring it to the forms for clarity.

 

Why would there be separation?  One of my favorite builds has

Extra Limbs (MANY, because they're not biological, they're energy limbs)

extra STR with the limbs

Stretching with the limbs

 

So his autofire punch is defined as 3 'fists' all spread out to hit multiple times.  He's also got a Triple Punch where 3 of em are attacking as one, with a couple extra dice OR doing double knockback.  His autofire has no time lag even in concept.

 

Plus, you're basically trying to say that your villain's power has immediate effect...it's faster than that second punch.  If the punches have slight delay, why doesn't the teleport away, between recognition, activation, and effect?  You're trying to impose 'reality' on one side only.

[Sveta8]

20 hours ago, Life said:

I do understand that all hits "land" but equating it to reality there would be a short pause in between. Either way, game ways it's the way it's listed above. As we're trying to keep the rules in our game as close to the book as possible, thought we'd bring it to the forms for clarity.

 

While stating that in reality there is a short pause, I struggle to bear that into mind in this situation. If someone is taking Autofire, they are probably either defining it as a Gun, or some sort of Energy Blast that keeps homing back in on it's target until it misses. Actually, that sounds like a pretty fun concept for a Star Shooter style character... An attack like a Comet that whirls around, and keeps hitting and getting more erratic till it's flung off into space... I'll think about that in a second.

But in either case, The "Attack" has already left the Player's character by the time they would Instantly be teleported. If I have an Autofire Gun, then I'm shooting multiple bullets at you. Unless you are wanting to have the character teleported after the first shot has hit you, but before the second shot fired, it wouldn't work like you are hoping. And it straight up wouldn't work that way the attack tried to stick to it's target, like the Shooting Star example. Person is gone, but the attack's still going.

 

Not only that, you are generating an attack/protection to specifically prevent a player's normal options from working. If someone teleports you away when you hit them, hit them either really freaking hard or with lots of nearly instant attacks. If you are causing the Autofire character to simply not be able to use it's abilities... Well, why? 

[Greywind]

Rapid Fire HTH:

 

 

[unclevlad]

20 hours ago, Sveta8 said:

 

While stating that in reality there is a short pause, I struggle to bear that into mind in this situation. If someone is taking Autofire, they are probably either defining it as a Gun, or some sort of Energy Blast that keeps homing back in on it's target until it misses. Actually, that sounds like a pretty fun concept for a Star Shooter style character... An attack like a Comet that whirls around, and keeps hitting and getting more erratic till it's flung off into space... I'll think about that in a second.

 

The scenarios you're describing involve ranged autofire, where the teleport won't even trigger (or would trigger to no effect, if the intent is it's only versus melee.)

 

HTH autofire can easily be:

--extra limbs

--TK 

--advanced martial arts

--speedster 

--instantaneous "duplication"

 

Can also argue that very high Running or perhaps Lightning Reflexes involve moving limbs extra-fast...so, OK, autofire punches.  Or that you use your Stretching to punch with your fist and jab with an elbow.  

 

Probably others too.  I don't think any of these is an affront to genre conventions.    Autofire is nice but expensive (due to END cost, or the increased cost of Reduced END, if nothing else).  If someone wants to pay for it, as long as the justification is halfway reasonable, I'll probably go, sure, why not, as long as it's still a reasonably balanced attack.

[Life]

I love all the conversation around this.

 

The video shows a person landing hits, but again, the hits do not land at the same time. In Hero terms what's the special effect? If you have extra limbs or HTH auto fire, are they all landing at once or as a 1,2,3 combo? If a combo, then to me it should be Hit, damage shield, hit. I would agree with an argument of some type of the next hit (assuming 3 hits landed & and it's damaging damage shield) that the 3rd hit does some damage as the person was in full swing but collapsed while swinging (assuming the damage would KO the person). In my case the with HTH Auto Attack -> Hit ->Teleport ->(insert roll here) to see if you still swing the next hit. If the hero declared 3 swings and made their (insert roll here), they would lose no endurance. If they failed the roll, they would only spend the endurance of the 2nd swing, not the 3rd (at least I'd give it to them).

 

If you take your hand to cover a small flame. Do you not take fire damage before your hand suffocates the flame? Yes you do, but your defence is higher than the flame's damage shield, thus you're able to put it out.

 

While I understand the "system" suggest all land at once, I disagree with the system (5e at least, unsure how 6e handles it), and it should be based on special effects to determine how it all plays out.

[Greywind]

The hits land so fast as to make no difference so far as the attack goes.

 

The system reflects that. First and foremost is balance.

[Ninja-Bear]

1 hour ago, Life said:

While I understand the "system" suggest all land at once, I disagree with the system (5e at least, unsure how 6e handles it), and it should be based on special effects to determine how it all plays out.

Well not at the books but could be a slight change in 6th (I think)  is that when Blocking an AF, you make multiple Blocks to avoid any multiple hits at cumulative -2 OCV per hit past the first one. 
 

But to reiterate, if YOU want to change how you think it should work, then by all means do so. 😁

[Sveta8]

1 hour ago, Life said:

While I understand the "system" suggest all land at once, I disagree with the system (5e at least, unsure how 6e handles it), and it should be based on special effects to determine how it all plays out.

Now I'm confused. You seem to be asking for which happens first, Autofire or Damage Shield. Autofire happens first. You also seem to be understanding that, and wanting that to not be the case. If you are asking how the rest of us would typically run Autofire on a HTH Attack vs a Damage Shield with a teleporting effect.

IF I were in such a situation, I would scratch my chin real hard before offering a compromise. Autofire, Base, will hit a single target if the aim is successful, and then again for every 2 OCV they beat the DCV by. If you are looking for a blatant cover-all option, Increase that to every 3 OCV. They will hit a few times, but less than normal.

OR if I were being REALLY particular about mechanics, I'd let the first hit apply, then check relative Dexterity. That covers some reaction time. So, for every 2 OCV AND 2 Dex the fighter has on the opponent, they can hit again. When EITHER of them meet the opponent's, the attack ends, and they are teleported away.

[unclevlad]

On 9/18/2020 at 10:30 PM, Life said:

I love all the conversation around this.

 

The video shows a person landing hits, but again, the hits do not land at the same time. In Hero terms what's the special effect? If you have extra limbs or HTH auto fire, are they all landing at once or as a 1,2,3 combo? If a combo, then to me it should be Hit, damage shield, hit. I would agree with an argument of some type of the next hit (assuming 3 hits landed & and it's damaging damage shield) that the 3rd hit does some damage as the person was in full swing but collapsed while swinging (assuming the damage would KO the person). In my case the with HTH Auto Attack -> Hit ->Teleport ->(insert roll here) to see if you still swing the next hit. If the hero declared 3 swings and made their (insert roll here), they would lose no endurance. If they failed the roll, they would only spend the endurance of the 2nd swing, not the 3rd (at least I'd give it to them).

 

If you take your hand to cover a small flame. Do you not take fire damage before your hand suffocates the flame? Yes you do, but your defence is higher than the flame's damage shield, thus you're able to put it out.

 

While I understand the "system" suggest all land at once, I disagree with the system (5e at least, unsure how 6e handles it), and it should be based on special effects to determine how it all plays out.

 

Saw this response coming.
You're also looking at a 2 SPD normal there, not someone whose hands literally can't be seen, they're moving so fast.  

 

And NO, even if it's 1-2-3, it's not gonna be hit, damage shield, hit...or I might allow it with a sizable advantage on your damage shield.  You're asking for your damage shield to react absolutely instantly.  To get that?  Pay for it.  

 

You're also giving the strong counterargument to those who want SFX to drive too much.  

[eepjr24]

It sounds like your intent was to build something that allowed you to teleport away after the first hit in hand to hand (unless you went hog wild and adopted some of the APG II suggestions around ranged damage shields). I would say your implementation is not going to accomplish that under RAW. While "reality" would imply that nothing is truly instantaneous (look it up, chaos theory gets really interesting), we are talking about comic book physics here, which is more of a "you get what you pay for" reality. The AF has been paid for and barring a few interesting details will likely still hit. 

 

If you added some things to it, your Damage Shield idea might be able to accomplish what you want. You could, for instance, link some CSL's (or raw DCV with limitations) to it. This will depend on your whether GM's interpretation of "Small Group of Attacks" would include autofire hand to hand attacks. Otherwise, just buy the raw DCV with the limitation "Only versus autofire attacks after the first hit", probably a -1, depending on how common autofire HTH is in your campaign. The SFX is that you manage to teleport out before the remaining blows hit. I would allow either, honestly, since you are paying extra specifically for the privilege of not being hit by autofire attacks after the first. You could do something similar by simply buying any other kind of defense (PD, ED, Mental, Power, Reduction, Negation, etc) and add a limitation that it only defends against damage that would exceed the amount of the first hit in an autofire. Again, I'd probably give something in the neighborhood of -1 or more, depending on how common AF attacks are. The SFX is the same here. You'll have to figure out how fast you want your teleport to react (IE: How much DCV to buy), which allows your opponent to offset by buying more OCV for his autofire. That provides a mechanism for balance, although it might warrant making the defense slightly cheaper than 2.5 points per, play testing would tell more.

 

Note that unless you bought your Damage Shield twice it would not affect ranged autofire attacks (APG II pg 45 "The Damage Shield rules on 6E1 321 apply only
to HTH Combat."), but APG II, page 45 has a way around that for you as well. I think setting the whole thing up as a triggered power is going to be cheaper in the end, especially with trying to figure out the linked for multiple powers,etc. As always, YMMV, these are just suggestions, not rulings and you should check with your GM before proceeding.

 

- E 

[Ninja-Bear]

@LifeAha! I just thought of and expensive way to do what you want to do. Buy Deflection as a Damage Shield then link the T-Port to it. And perhaps have a limitation that on Autofire the first hit still gets through. Btw yes technically it’s GM permission to allow Deflection versus HtH. But I don’t see why you need the APG book to allow you to do it. Just a willing GM.

[unclevlad]

It has to be Deflection on a Trigger, and in itself that's at least a caution sign.  I almost certainly wouldn't allow it even against a ranged attack, unless it was a single-shot defense that took considerable time to reset.  

[Ninja-Bear]

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

It has to be Deflection on a Trigger, and in itself that's at least a caution sign.  I almost certainly wouldn't allow it even against a ranged attack, unless it was a single-shot defense that took considerable time to reset.  

I’ve thought about trigger but I considered otherwise.