Trigger vs Linked Attack: An Adveantageous Limitation

[Sveta8]

Hello! I'll try to make my question concise. Apologies when I fail.

 

So while I was working on figuring out a neat way to provide a following up Attack for a thread in Fantasy Hero, I was struck with a peculiar sort of confusion. They wanted to apply an effect when they hit someone. Two options jumped to my mind immediately. Trigger, and Linked, for how to set it up. Then I blinked, and realized I had just defined an Advantage and Limitation to both allow the same sort of effect. So, I dug into this.

 

As much to try and have everyone on the same page as to help me work through it in a written form, I'ma go over the two Effects.

Trigger, is a variable advantage. It allows you to define a specific sort of trigger, activation time, reset condition, and power to be applied when that said Trigger occurs.
Linked, is a variable disadvantage. It allows you to define a specific power to be internally linked, and only able to be activated when another power or happens.

 

At first brush, my brain says this is fine. At second brush, I furrow my brow and see some overlap. So, I try and figure out if one of them can be defined in terms of the other. And in this case, yes!

Linked, if one were to choose to, could be defined as a very specific subset of Trigger. Instead of allowing any action to be the trigger, it must be the activation, or use of another Power. Instead of an Activation time is set at a zero phase action and cannot be changed. Reset time is set to reset automatically and take no time. Thus... Linked, if it were written as a Trigger, is a +1 Advantage. To make  matters more confusing, Linked Powers can also be used at lesser ammounts than full, or not just proportional to the Starting Power.

 

So I try to look at it in another light. What does Trigger provide that Linked does not? What does Linked have that Trigger does not?

Well, Trigger lets you increase or decrease the action it takes to activate the power it is attached to. It also lets you define multiple triggering conditions, and it gives control over the reset time to the player.

Linked however, provides a single option for both activation, trigger, and reset time. It does rely on a secondary power however.

 

 

So the question I came to is this. Trigger clearly has reason to exist, as it provides a multitude of different building options. Traps mainly come to mind. But why does Linked Exist as it does? It provides the same effect, for more cheaper than base, with the sole limitation being that it has to be connected to a Power or Action. A Trigger Power too can only be activated by their trigger, so what gives? The only reason I can think to have a Trigger based off a seperate Power activation, is if it's part of a Multipower for a Power that is outside of it.

 

 

 

 

 

This is just an example, feel free to dismiss it as need be. Just trying to highlight my confussion.

 

Say I have a Glass Cannon. Let's call them Blood Drinker. I want them to be getting hit left and right, but when they hit, they heal up a fair chunk of that damage. How do I do this? Well, I first decide that I want to both be healing Stun and Body. So, Heal with Added Effect at +1/2. Let's say I want 4d6. That's 60pt right there.

Now I'm faced with how to.... attach this power to their other powers. Blood Drinker sounds like a skittish dude, so let's make his main attack a Blast. So, I need to attach Blood Drinking: Healing, to his Blast. If I do it via Trigger, I am looking at a few ways to do it. I can have him prep his attacks to steal the blood, or have it just sorta keep happening. I Might be able to have him hit, and then on his next segment, heal up, but I'm not 100% certain, considering Blast is an Instant Power. Either way, I"m looking likely at a +1/2 Advantage.

Or, I can set it up as a Linked Power. I don't pay a single extra point, and can have it happen each time those hits impact the foe! Not only that, it keeps me under 70pt's incase that is the active point cap of the campaign. Both options use extra endurance, so... I'm confused. If you can used Linked Power instead of Trigger... why wouldn't you?

[Simon]

I suspect you're looking at Linked slightly incorrectly.

If Power B is Linked to Power A, it can only be used when Power A is used.  So far so good.  You don't get to make the call "it can only be used when Power A is used and I hit my opponent with Power A" -- that's a Trigger and gives the distinct Advantage of only firing after you have successfully struck your opponent (vs the typical MPA).

 

Trigger is required to have Power B automatically fire when you successfully hit an opponent with Power A (an Advantage).  Linked is something you get to take to state that you can't use Power B otherwise -- it only works in conjunction with Power A (a Limitation).

[dialNforNinja]

Isn't it more limiting to have the Linked power only work on a successful hit, than every time the other power is used to attack, though? Between the concept being "recovers when the enemy is damaged" and the basic principle that you can always add more limitations for free if they're not worth at least -1/4, that sounds like the Limitation version should be fine. I mean, it's making the healing power less effective than just having it available at will whether or not there's a handy target you don't mind hurting, so it should cost less, no? Doing it the way you said, you could heal by firing into the sky - or at least, that's what it looks like from how you said it.

[Sveta8]

10 hours ago, Simon said:

I suspect you're looking at Linked slightly incorrectly.

If Power B is Linked to Power A, it can only be used when Power A is used.  So far so good.  You don't get to make the call "it can only be used when Power A is used and I hit my opponent with Power A" -- that's a Trigger and gives the distinct Advantage of only firing after you have successfully struck your opponent (vs the typical MPA).

 

Trigger is required to have Power B automatically fire when you successfully hit an opponent with Power A (an Advantage).  Linked is something you get to take to state that you can't use Power B otherwise -- it only works in conjunction with Power A (a Limitation).

 

I very well may be looking at Linked incorrectly, but I do have contention with what you say.

 

If I am reading it correctly, you do have the potential to get to make the call "it can only be used when Power A is used and I hit my opponent with Power A." Not in the limitation itself, but in the implementation. Drawn from the text for Linked Power: Lesser power is linked to Greater power; character can use Greater power without using Lesser power, but can only use Lesser power if he uses Greater power, character must use Lesser power in proportion to Greater power.

 

I don't know about you, but I read that as saying that I get to choose whether I use the Lesser Power or not. A useful ability depending on Endurance and situational modifiers. If they heal from Fire damage and my Linked Fire Punch would heal them, not having to use it seems helpful. I will admit, it leaves it vague in determining when one declares if they will be using a linked power though. If it is simply after the first Power's Activation, then I have to decide to use it before I know if I hit. If it is in the same segment after the first power has activated, then I can choose to activate it on only a hit. This, by the way, ignores the fact that regardless of whether or not the attack hits, I will also likely be rolling to hit the foe for the Linked Power as well. As Linking a power to another doesn't automatically allow it to hit if the first power hits from what I am reading. You roll either way.

 

And while you bring up that Linked causes you to be unable to use Power B without use of Power A, I have yet to be able to find an ability written up with Trigger that can be activated without the triggering mechanism. Again, Drawn from the text for Trigger: This advantage allows a character to set up a power that activates when a defined circumstance occurs. Unless I am reading that wrong, that says that unless that circumstance occurs, the power cannot be used. So Linked requires the first power to be used, and Trigger requires the trigger to occur, which can include another power being activated.

 

In the end there, Linked allows you to choose if the power activates or not and gets you a Point based discount. Trigger forces you to always use the power, costs additional points, requires you to work on resetting the Trigger, but allows you to define the trigger as things more specific or tangible than a Power activation.

 

 

58 minutes ago, dialNforNinja said:

Isn't it more limiting to have the Linked power only work on a successful hit, than every time the other power is used to attack, though? Between the concept being "recovers when the enemy is damaged" and the basic principle that you can always add more limitations for free if they're not worth at least -1/4, that sounds like the Limitation version should be fine. I mean, it's making the healing power less effective than just having it available at will whether or not there's a handy target you don't mind hurting, so it should cost less, no? Doing it the way you said, you could heal by firing into the sky - or at least, that's what it looks like from how you said it.

 

You are correct. It is more limiting to have to use the first power to use the second power. It does make it so that you have to wail on something to heal, so that limits a basic healing ability. What you fail to address though, is the fact that defining it as a Trigger still limits the healing ability to being used to when you try and blast something, but now is written as an Advantage, and costs additional points. If I am in a situation where I can't freely blast the sky or something equivilant, I am limited in the ability to heal regardless of whether that healing is occuring due to a Trigger on the Blast, or Linked to the blast.

[HeroGM]

Linked goes to a power. Trigger can go to anything including an event, which link doesnt handle.

 

My thunder fist of k'un is linked to my martial strike. I can either use it or not, either way I have to use that strike. 

 

I have a trigger on my strike that when I'm visibly hit ((no sneak attacks)) my energy blast strikes back, but it takes a segment or eight to reset. 

 

The wizard triggers the door to set off an attack if the proper phrase isn't spoken; an attack that is a energy blast linked with a psychic attack. 

[Simon]

3 hours ago, Sveta8 said:

I don't know about you, but I read that as saying that I get to choose whether I use the Lesser Power or not.

Yes, that's always the case with Linked (though it can be the Greater Power, depending on how Linked is setup). The Limitation comes from the fact that you cannot use the Linked Power without first using the Power that it is Linked to.

Also note during this that if Power B is linked to Power A and both are Attack Powers, without other Advantages applied to Power B you would pretty much have to state that you're using both before making an Attack Roll -- you don't get to make two Attack Actions.  Which brings us back to Trigger -- you're going to want to read the text for Trigger pretty carefully...and note that it does allow you to make a second Attack Roll in the same phase if necessary.  That's a pretty distinct Advantage right off the bat...and why I mentioned it as an advantage over MPA in my original response.

 

If you wanted Power B to affect anything that you touched or that touched you without having to make a separate Attack Roll, you'd be talking about a different setup (specifically Damage Shield...and all the Modifiers that entails).

[Sveta8]

44 minutes ago, Simon said:

Yes, that's always the case with Linked (though it can be the Greater Power, depending on how Linked is setup). The Limitation comes from the fact that you cannot use the Linked Power without first using the Power that it is Linked to.

Also note during this that if Power B is linked to Power A and both are Attack Powers, without other Advantages applied to Power B you would pretty much have to state that you're using both before making an Attack Roll -- you don't get to make two Attack Actions.  Which brings us back to Trigger -- you're going to want to read the text for Trigger pretty carefully...and note that it does allow you to make a second Attack Roll in the same phase if necessary.  That's a pretty distinct Advantage right off the bat...and why I mentioned it as an advantage over MPA in my original response.

 

If you wanted Power B to affect anything that you touched or that touched you without having to make a separate Attack Roll, you'd be talking about a different setup (specifically Damage Shield...and all the Modifiers that entails).

 

I think I am understanding what you are saying. And I'm going to try to see if I get what you are saying. Namely, as there is a fair bit of... weird information that has been included but is not the topic here. This is me trying to understand why Linked Power, while seeming to function as a very specific Trigger, is considered a Limitation, where as Trigger in general is an Advantage. I hadn't even considered building something like this as a Damage Shield, as I hadn't considered that valid. Though, I am certain I could try my hand at it.

 

If I am understanding correctly, which I may not be, You are stating Trigger, as it can be described as, well, triggering on a successful attack. Linked Power however requires stating it will or not be used on the First Power's Activation, regardless of whether it will hit or not. That, I will agree is an Advantage. Only spending END when you need to is handy. Also if some peculiarities arise, Trigger still allows for a secondary attack roll to be made for the second power, should it be so necessary.

In a Logic System, Trigger could be defined as
If A is True, Then B is True. If A is False, Then B is Null

If you manage to hit, you activate the second ability. If you fail to hit, you don't spend anything else.

Where as Linked is more aptly described as
If A is True, Then B is True. If A is False, Then B is False.

If you manage to hit, you activate the second ability. If you fail to hit, you use up what is needed for the second ability to be used as well.

In that situation, Trigger is advantageous.

In that situation, I would say that is an Exceedingly small difference, normally the cost of END, to prompt the difference between a +1/4 (Minimum) and a -1/2. But, it is advantageous. Granted, this is already the very specific case of a Secondary Power Activating upon the use of a Primary Power, both of which are intending to target the same target. So, I shall rest my confused grumble.

[Thia Halmades]

Yawns, reads. Takes another sip of coffee. Re-reads. Cracks knuckles.

 

Okay. I see the disconnect. In this post I’m going to try and address the confusion, rather than dive into rules citations. The following appears to be true based on what I’m reading thus far:

 

Sveta8, you seem to be trying to fully understand both how Trigger works, and, (apologies if I’m not precisely spot on here) why Linked is a Limitation, as opposed to a subset of Trigger, which is an advantage. For the sake of discussion, we’re agreeing that all definitions and examples provided by Simon are correct, but. You appear to be really stuck on “Why is Linked (a Limitation) a thing, since it can be perceived in limited circumstances as an Advantage?”

 

The answer is, mechanically, because Linked takes the activation almost entirely out of a player’s hands:

 

5 hours ago, Sveta8 said:

Drawn from the text for Linked Power: Lesser power is linked to Greater power; character can use Greater power without using Lesser power, but can only use Lesser power if he uses Greater power, character must use Lesser power in proportion to Greater power.

 

The key word here is “must.” For example, in a Trigger scenario, I transform into mist whenever I take over half my BODY in a single shot — I become Desolid as a special effect. Linked to that is Invisibility. The “greater” power, the one on the trigger, is the Desolid. The lesser power is invisibility. Because I have Invisibility linked, I have no access to it at all. It only goes off when Greater Power goes off. If we steer away from the common attack examples, and start looking at other ways Trigger and Linked might affect combat and outcomes, its existence as a limitation becomes much clearer.

 

To go slightly further, let’s dive into Trigger for a second, one of my all-time favorite Advantages. For a +1/2, I can make the Trigger anything for each use, including, literally, snapping my fingers as “an action that takes no time.” (+1/4). In addition, I can set two (or three) trigger conditions. Snap my fingers, or, fall down the stairs. Either one activates the power in question. This is the crux of what Simon was driving at; the amount of control you have over a Trigger is nearly limitless, while Linked ties a power off and locks the player out of activating it “unless.”

 

Going back to Fantasy HERO and the Flash Punch Troll, he could very well purchase Flash as Linked to a Hand-to-Hand attack called “I Punched His Lights Out.” Flash 6d6, Trigger, whenever I punch someone and roll 50 STUN, Linked (HTH Attack). Meaning, I cannot use the Flash without first having punched someone AND met the trigger condition. However, if I remove linked, and alter my trigger to “Or I slap them really hard, like I mean it,” I get much broader access. 

 

Are those examples helping to highlight the difference?

[Sveta8]

As per @Thia Halmades your statements draw not so much clarification, as a frustrating simple answer. Not because you are wrong, but rather, that it simply solidifies what was reached.

 

Namely, it is the options of what could be defined more than anything else seem to indicate the advantage. Trigger provides a thousand different options for how it could be implemented, where it was, and provides multiple interpretations and triggers should one purchase that option.

Rather.... how to put it... The fact that one is choosing to intentionally limit how a power is tied to other actions is what is causing the limitation to be worth it's value. 

 

While it makes sense... I may get frustrated by it. But, it does make sense. It's a frustrating sort of answer that due to the potential being lost from a theoretical advantage causes it to be a limitation instead.

[Simon]

You're getting frustrated because you're trying to just slap Trigger onto a concept without paying attention to what Trigger is for.

 

Trigger lets you activate an ability before it is used/fires.  You can lay a trap, set a healing spell that fires when your armor is breached (you take BODY), etc.  It allows the character to spend the time (and END) for an action before the action takes effect (potentially long before).  

 

If we continue with the example of a Flash that fires when a HtH attack hits, you could do this with a Trigger.  You activate the Flash along with your HtH attack (spending the END for both).  If the HtH attack fails to hit, the Flash is still there and activated (the trap has been set) -- you don't have to reactivate it during your next action/attack (or spend more END for it) - you only have to do that once it actually fires off (takes effect).  If that doesn't mimic the effect you're trying to achieve then Trigger is not the right Advantage.

 

If you'd like to have the Flash fire off as a separate attack, but only when you're using the HtH attack, you would do this with Linked.  It can't be used without the HtH attack, needs to be activated anytime you want to use it, but also is not bound to a successful hit.

 

If you're looking for something that automatically affects an opponent when they are struck, you'd be better off working with Damage Shield. If you want it to further be limited to only affecting an opponent when they are struck with a particular HtH attack (rather than anytime they are touched by your character), then you'd also take either Linked or Limited Power (again, whichever most closely matches the specifics of what you're after).

[Sveta8]

I am frustrated not because I am trying to slap Trigger onto something without paying attention to it. The fact that it is used to create powers that lie in wait is understood. The abundant amount of information to explain that is, too, understood. Nor am I particularly missing the fact that it provides a useful advantage by this, and more than any other Advantage, allows you to set a power and leave.That is well understood. 

 

I am frustrated because I am comparing it to Linked in a very specific instance. And instead of simply providing the information that that is not the intended use case a bunch of flak has been shot up as an obscuring concern. Whether it is about that Linked is a preventative limitation. Or perhaps that Linked requires a separate power activation and and that that is why it is limited over Trigger. Or that Trigger's trigger can be better defined than a Linked Power one. I was looking for why it was such a mathematical oddity. That it was not under Trigger's Intended use case was the answer. 

 

That is not to say that it could not be done in that manner! Rather, many effects can be duplicated in less than effective or efficient or intended way. Heck, Creating a Triggered Healing Power with the Trigger of While Having Body Damage, and then letting it auto-reset with the appropriate expenditure is a way to provide Regenerating Health! But it is far more effective, efficient, and productive to simply use Regeneration. 

 

I am frustrated because so much information was put about that the actual information I was aiming for was lost. That Trigger, while capable of that, is not Intended for it. That's all.

[Thia Halmades]

I say this without rancor or sarcasm:

 

You’ve lost me.

 

If I can help, let me know. I want to help, and I thought I had helped, clearly I did not. If I can help with this question in the future, you know. Holla.

[Simon]

You received a lot of information because you posted a freaking essay. And continue to do so.  Spend some time learning how to concisely and clearly state what you're after if you don't want folks to take sidelines based on the myriad and varied points in your posts.

 

It's generally to be assumed that you should realize that Trigger is a different Modifier from Linked and intended to represent different things.  You started this by suggesting that Trigger could be more limiting than Linked in certain contrived instances....which indicates a lack of understanding of the difference between the two Modifiers and Trigger in particular...so we spent time on that.

If you are after a set of gloves that can be charged up such that they emit a large Flash when you strike someone, that's a good case for Trigger.  You set the ability (charge the gloves) and then leave it until such time as you successfully hit someone, at which point you can choose to reset the Trigger if desired. It's appropriately classified as an Advantage for this build.

 

If you're after something different, then you build from effect.  Define how it works within the mechanics of the system and then take the appropriate Modifiers.  Maybe Trigger, maybe Linked, maybe Damage Shield, maybe some combination of them -- it's all about what you're after, which after multiple pages of text that you've posted is still unclear.

 

 

[Sveta8]

7 minutes ago, Simon said:

If you're after something different, then you build from effect.  Define how it works within the mechanics of the system and then take the appropriate Modifiers.  Maybe Trigger, maybe Linked, maybe Damage Shield, maybe some combination of them -- it's all about what you're after, which after multiple pages of text that you've posted is still unclear.

 

I will try to be concise in this. I am not looking to define a specific power. If I were, I would describe it in likely too much detail, as you have pointed out my wont to do. I am trying to understand use cases for both Advantages and Disadvantages so that I might better be able to build powers and characters in the future. In speaking on other people's powers I found that a Linked Power and a Trigger Power could function similarly but have wildly differing cost effectiveness. I wanted to understand why that is. Trying to figure why they were and weren't the appropriate modifiers. To that end, it has been answered. I was theorycrafting a power that activates after another. Of course Linked makes more sense. 

 

I posted an example power as if I simply state "I can make a power with Trigger or Linked Power and it achieves the same result! Why is this?" All I will receive is, "Well, it depends on the type of power you are making." That's hardly helpful for anyone. I was confused because of a fundamental misunderstanding of Trigger's common  use cases. I made mistakes presuming what Trigger was intended for, as it could be used for this, as you put, contrived instance. 

[Thia Halmades]

1 hour ago, Simon said:

 

If you're after something different, then you build from effect.  Define how it works within the mechanics of the system and then take the appropriate Modifiers.  Maybe Trigger, maybe Linked, maybe Damage Shield, maybe some combination of them -- it's all about what you're after, which after multiple pages of text that you've posted is still unclear.

 

TL;DR — Reason from Effect. Because one is a trigger, that can give you multiple free actions, and the other is a limitation, that only works under specific circumstances in cooperation with another power. Whether that use case can be turned to appear as an advantage is, from a HERO perspective, a coincidental aside, more of a “Hey, Thia, look at this build.” “Wow, that’s weird. But it’s legal and it works.” That’s not the question we are going to answer, because it’s not a ‘question’ in HERO. It’s a cloud over your actual question:

 

“What are the optimal use cases for these for Trigger and Linked, since I’m seeing them as very similar.”

 

Maybe we didn’t make it clear that is the question we read (not to speak for Simon, but I think I’m on solid ground here), and it’s the question we answered, and you replied: “‘Well it depends on the type of power you’re making.’ That’s hardly helpful for anyone.” You then stated you were confused over a fundamental misunderstanding of Trigger’s common use cases, and that’s why I changed things up and gave you other examples, but you still seem to be distressed and accused me/Simon/us of obfuscating the issue.

 

We’re not. We’re just thinking in HERO terms, asking “What is it you want to do” then breaking down the best way mechanically to represent it. Simon pointed out that our understanding of the rules and how you framed the question carried certain implicit assumptions, and that includes accepting sometimes the system can seem to do odd things. Which is what I’m getting at:

 

We did answer your question. In various ways, and the answer was, at least on my side, “I see what you see but, because it’s happening in a vacuum of possibility, isn’t providing a full picture. Explain to me what you want a power to do, and I’ll be able to show you how these things operate in practice,” which gave rise to my Desolid/Linked Invisibility build. I get punched too hard, I vanish. POOF. And to your post, the bit you italicized, I explicitly demonstrated why they were different modifiers. Because I can’t turn invisible unless I get punched super hard. That makes it a limitation.

 

Trigger can give you multiple free actions, and the other is a limitation, that only works under specific circumstances in cooperation with another power. Whether that use case can be turned to appear as an advantage is, from a HERO perspective, irrelevant. The question we are always looking to answer is, “What effect am I going for,” and “is it built in a functional and reasonable way that does what I want?” 

 

And so. You then posted, above, that you would explain the power in question for our further edification and enlightenment, but you would be unnecessarily verbose. Verily, ‘tis your wont, but lo, I doubt you could add further complication to your already salubrious musings, of which I still read every word, down to the very humble comma, in the finest detail.

 

Yes. I’m having a go. Post the idea and maybe we can show you some build options and put this to bed.

 

Then, we can look at that power, and reason from effect.

 

 

 

[Sveta8]

2 hours ago, Thia Halmades said:

 

And so. You then posted, above, that you would explain the power in question for our further edification and enlightenment, but you would be unnecessarily verbose. Verily, ‘tis your wont, but lo, I doubt you could add further complication to your already salubrious musings, of which I still read every word, down to the very humble comma, in the finest detail.

 

Yes. I’m having a go. Post the idea and maybe we can show you some build options and put this to bed.

 

Then, we can look at that power, and reason from effect.

 

 

Fair enough. And... I apologize for being somewhat, well, not somewhat, simply being belligerent. In reading the system a fair portion has made sense, yet this had been the first instance that truly stuck in my grill and was refusing to make sense to me. I got fed up, defensive, and was no longer arguing about the topic at hand. For that, I am honestly sorry.

 

But, the person who posted the power that originally led me to this kerfuffle with has found their own solution, but I did have a similar power in the works on my mind. The intended goal was for the User to Spend a moment enforcing their strikes with the ability to heal themselves if they hit. It was intended to take a moment for them to activate it, and it would persist for a while.

 

The way I was currently thinking of it with Linked Power would be:

Healing Strikes: Healing 2d6 Body and Stun, Expanded Effect (+1/2), Time Limit: 1 Min (+3/4), Extra Time: Full Phase (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Linked Power: HTH (-1/2)

 

However, If I was building it with Trigger, I think It would be

Healing Strikes: Healing 2d6 Body and Stun, Expanded Effect (+1/2), Time Limit: 1 Min (+3/4), Trigger: Successfully hitting a foe with a HTH attack, Zero Phase to Use and Reset (+1/2), Extra Time: Full Phase (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4)

 

Advice to or against it would be helpful. And, again, apologies.

[Thia Halmades]

Apology accepted.

 

You can build it either way, if you want them to have to ‘setup’ the power that’s Extra Time; if you want them to auto-heal when they punch someone, that’s a trigger, and if they heal because they beat the stuffing out of somebody, that is linked. Your effect then becomes: “I hit people to feel good about myself. Literally.” It’s a use case where you have purchased the advantage, and Linked limits the power to only martial strikes. They can only utilize the heal through punching. And that’s completely, 100%, valid.

 

Oh, other thing: Gestures only applies if they have to do some other Naruto style hand waving/finger wiggling/tongue waggling (...literally, to waggle the tongue; speaking is Incantations) because you already require a HTH attack. If they can’t punch, they can’t heal.

[Sveta8]

Ah, Understood. I was attaching Gestures as I figured that made sense for a power 'setup' with Extra Time. If it is also then required when activated... Less apt. Thanks, sincerely.

[Thia Halmades]

You’re very welcome. What I’m here for. Back for.

 

Something. IDK. We’ll find out, it’s an adventure!

[Greywind]

Like retaking Reach.

[Simon]

Nice resolution you folks have there.  Shame if something were to "happen" to it.

 

1 hour ago, Sveta8 said:

The intended goal was for the User to Spend a moment enforcing their strikes with the ability to heal themselves if they hit. It was intended to take a moment for them to activate it, and it would persist for a while.

 

The way I was currently thinking of it with Linked Power would be:

Healing Strikes: Healing 2d6 Body and Stun, Expanded Effect (+1/2), Time Limit: 1 Min (+3/4), Extra Time: Full Phase (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Linked Power: HTH (-1/2)

 

However, If I was building it with Trigger, I think It would be

Healing Strikes: Healing 2d6 Body and Stun, Expanded Effect (+1/2), Time Limit: 1 Min (+3/4), Trigger: Successfully hitting a foe with a HTH attack, Zero Phase to Use and Reset (+1/2), Extra Time: Full Phase (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4)

This right here is a good example of how defining what you want the effect to be will guide you to the right build.

 

First and foremost, Healing is likely not what you're after.  6E1 page 232:
 

Quote

The HERO System rules do not allow free unlimited Healing — the automatic stacking of one Healing effect on another, again and again and again — because it would make Healing too potent, too unbalancing, and too damaging to the “feel” of the game.

 

 

Ignoring that, the first build you have (with Linked) won't give you the effect you're looking for.  A generous interpretation of the Linked build would allow the character to spend the time to activate the Healing and then only let them use it when they also use their HTH attack during the 1 min Time Limit. 

The Trigger build is closer, but you're starting to run into some of the warnings and caveats listed in the text for Trigger in 6E1...namely that you'd be better off making it a Constant Power, assuming you get a GM go-ahead for the whole repeated Healing thing.

[Sveta8]

4 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

Ignoring that, the first build you have (with Linked) won't give you the effect you're looking for.  A generous interpretation of the Linked build would allow the character to spend the time to activate the Healing and then only let them use it when they also use their HTH attack during the 1 min Time Limit. 

The Trigger build is closer, but you're starting to run into some of the warnings and caveats listed in the text for Trigger in 6E1...namely that you'd be better off making it a Constant Power, assuming you get a GM go-ahead for the whole repeated Healing thing.

 

 

That is fair. I understand the limitation on infinite healing being as it is. While this would heal the user, it would only heal up a specific hit at a time, and only giving it a shot once, but I can still see it as being considered dubious.

If I am trying to consider it as a more Constant lesser healing effect, I could treat it as Regeneration. Giving it a Limited Effect Limitation to only last for the turn, if they've hit a foe in that time. Granted, Regeneration, unless oodles of points are spent on it, tends to seem to be a between-combat healing option. That and Combat seems to last aprximatly 3ish turns from what I hear. I could still see if that would be more workable.

[Simon]

It would behoove you to truly define what it is you're looking to do.  For example:  "The character, with some effort, can energize their hands so that anytime they strike someone they absorb some of the target's energy, adding it to the character's STUN and BODY."  Then go further:  can they punch anything or does it have to be living?  What about automata?  Would a car do the trick?  Can they boost their STUN and BODY past their normal levels, or only restore lost STUN and BODY? If the former, how quickly does that effect fade?  If the latter, does the restored STUN and BODY fade or is it permanent?  What if the character has been hit by a Drain to their STUN -- can they go above the Drained max?

 

Etc.

 

Define the limiting criteria - give the ability a shape.  Then you can build it.

[Thia Halmades]

HERO.

 

It’s like LEGO, made of silly putty, assembled by a thousand Rodins all at once. Each one of them thinking they’re right.

 

Simon is of course, correct, I wasn’t thinking about the healing element yet, hadn’t stepped away long enough. So to get back to it, my independent thought was “Does he mean life steal?” In which case, that’s a Killing Attack linked to an Aid and/or Heal in very limited circumstances. 

49 minutes ago, Sveta8 said:

Granted, Regeneration, unless oodles of points are spent on it, tends to seem to be a between-combat healing option. That and Combat seems to last aprximatly 3ish turns from what I hear. I could still see if that would be more workable.

 

Most healing options are “between combat,” because Healing can get pricey and everyone tends to dump a half dozen limitations on it, most commonly, Extra Time. Or, the GM says “Um... nah. I don’t like it, rewrite it.” Or if your GM is a real monster, you show up with your sneaky “Regen” baked into your multi-power and says “see that paragraph?” “The one that keeps me alive?” “Yeah.” “This one?” “Yeah.” “Yes...?” “Delete it.”

 

I’ve also been in fights that have gone 10, 20, or 30 rounds. Lost count after a while, had a GM who didn’t balance real well and his NPCs tended to be... sturdy. There’s no average fight in HERO, it is all highly dependent on what’s happening, who’s running, and the skill of the GM at keeping things moving.

[dmjalund]

As far as I can see, there is nothing you can do with two linked attacks that you can't do with a combined attack