Advantages, Strength, and You

[Sveta8]

Good Evening! I've got what I hope should be a quick question.

 

I'm looking to buy an Advantage for Strength. Specifically Area of Advantage, Any Area. I know this allows you to generate 2, 2meter area's to hit, which have to be adjacent, and well represents the intent I have to be hitting some of the area round, but not just a whole burst like Area of Effect: Radius would be.

My questions are this:
1: Buying the Advantage Increases the Active Points on Strength. I think the rules are saying that it increases the DC accordingly. Thus, a 10 DC 10d6 attack would become a 10DC 8d6 Attack. Is that correct, or am I incorrect?
2: Buying the Advantage generates the Advantage as it's own Separate Power. This means I could still use a more normal Strike attack without using the Area of Effect Advantage if I am reading it correctly. Am I reading that correctly?
3: I am 100% uncertain how that would interact with Martial Arts. Specifically, whether I could use that Advantage on Martial Art's Attacks or not, or if I'd have to buy it separately, or so on. Any Advice there would be appriciated.

[Simon]

Any Area at +1/4 gives you up to 2x2 meter areas (that must be adjacent). You would affect everyone within the defined areas unless you also purchase Selective, which largely negates much of the benefit of AOE attacks (you'd need to roll to hit each selected target at their normal DCV).

 

1. You are incorrect - a 50 STR character would have a base STR attack of 10DC.  Applying the Advantage to the character's STR would allow them to make that 10DC attack on an area -- that's the point.

2. You're talking about purchasing AoE: Any Area as a Naked Advantage on the character's STR.  That's fine -- it's a separate Power in that case and is something that they can choose to use (or not). It depends on your concept as to whether Naked Advantage is better or if you should just apply the Advantage to the character's base STR.

 

3. It would not interact with Martial Arts at all -- applying Advantages (or Limitations) to Martial Arts is not something for the faint of heart to even consider.

[unclevlad]

1.  No, many advantages don't increase the DCs.  AoE, Indirect, and the like that affect targeting, don't.  Armor Piercing, Penetrating, AVAD that change the impact of the damage, do change the DCs.

 

2.  Yes, if you buy it as a Naked Advantage you now get the option to NOT use it.  If it's bought directly onto the STR, you don't.  However, note that a Naked Advantage is a Special Power, and that means there are some purchase limitations.  (Can't be done in a framework is the big one.)

[Sveta8]

Huh, That makes it actually a fair bit more helpful than I originally thought! Keeping that extra 2d6 isn't much, but useful. And as for the warning for Martial Arts... Well, Fair enough. I'll let it sit and consider that far later.

[Ninja-Bear]

17 minutes ago, Simon said:

3. It would not interact with Martial Arts at all -- applying Advantages (or Limitations) to Martial Arts is not something for the faint of heart to even consider.

Umm....

 

Whirlwind Strike: AoE 2m for up to Martial Strike 10D6 HSMA 152

 

Unavoidable Blow: AoE 1m - Accurate for up to Martial Strike 10D6 HSMA 151

 

 

[Simon]

Yeah...and you'll want to look into the costing on those -- the Advantage was applied to the Maneuver, not to the base STR.

[Ninja-Bear]

34 minutes ago, Simon said:

Yeah...and you'll want to look into the costing on those -- the Advantage was applied to the Maneuver, not to the base STR.

Oh I have and the numbers don’t jive.

HSMA lists the Advantage for 10D6 so for Whirlwind Strike it’s listed as AoE 2m +1/4 & Personal Immunity +1/4 total ACT 25 RSR -1/2 Real 17 PTS. This is what’s listed. If we assume the Author want the Advantage on the Martial Strike at 10D6 then the base cost using Power on Martial Maneuvers per 106 HSMA should be Strike = Blast so 10D6=50 points  Martial Strike adds a bonus of +2DCV=10 pts so you should ACT at 30 pts and Real at 20pts. Or just lower said power in book to be 8D6 instead of 10D6  that’s listed.

[Ninja-Bear]

And frankly I was surprised that it wasn’t just bought with Hand Attacks as it used to be.

[unclevlad]

4 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Oh I have and the numbers don’t jive.

HSMA lists the Advantage for 10D6 so for Whirlwind Strike it’s listed as AoE 2m +1/4 & Personal Immunity +1/4 total ACT 25 RSR -1/2 Real 17 PTS. This is what’s listed. If we assume the Author want the Advantage on the Martial Strike at 10D6 then the base cost using Power on Martial Maneuvers per 106 HSMA should be Strike = Blast so 10D6=50 points  Martial Strike adds a bonus of +2DCV=10 pts so you should ACT at 30 pts and Real at 20pts. Or just lower said power in book to be 8D6 instead of 10D6  that’s listed.

 

Dude, they jive.  It's bought on the overall total DCs...because this also includes the STR, any HA in question, any HTH DCs, AND the damage bonus from Martial Strike.  The condition says it ONLY applies to Martial Strike, not, say, Offensive Strike too.  And because you're getting the AoE benefit, the costing is based on the total damage, as is entirely sensible.

[Ninja-Bear]

5 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

 

Dude, they jive.  It's bought on the overall total DCs...because this also includes the STR, any HA in question, any HTH DCs, AND the damage bonus from Martial Strike.  The condition says it ONLY applies to Martial Strike, not, say, Offensive Strike too.  And because you're getting the AoE benefit, the costing is based on the total damage, as is entirely sensible.

No they don’t if you go by Power Advantages for Martial Maneuvers (HSMA pg 106) you must also account for CV bonuses and penalties and other Martial Maneuver Elements such as Throw has a cost associated with it.  

[unclevlad]

Or you're perhaps misunderstanding the basis for building advantaged maneuvers.  I get your point, but isn't it a WHOLE lot cleaner to say it works as written, and you don't have to go through a pretty confusing deconstruction?  The effectiveness is tied to the final, net damage;  there's no good point in basing the cost on anything but that.

 

So if anything, I'd argue that the material on 106 and 107 isn't entirely clear, and even that different types of advantaged maneuvers might use different methodologies.  For me, Whirlwind Strike (and Unavoidable Blow on 151) behave exactly like Naked Advantages, where the cost basis is the total damage.  

Also, note this text from Unavoidable Blow:

 

Quote

The character must define which Martial Maneuver this ability works with when he buys it, and cannot change it thereafter (though he can buy it multiple times for multiple maneuvers).

So if you buy it on a 10d6 Offensive Strike, it's 17.  If you buy it on a 10d6 Defensive Strike, it's 17.  It doesn't matter how you get to 10d6;  what matters is that's where you're at.

Oh, and this is a case where I would allow the maneuver itself to be improved...if the damage basis for the strike increases.  NOT by switchng it to a different strike.  As I say, conceptually treat this as a Naked Advantage of a sort.

[Ninja-Bear]

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

Or you're perhaps misunderstanding the basis for building advantaged maneuvers.  I get your point, but isn't it a WHOLE lot cleaner to say it works as written, and you don't have to go through a pretty confusing deconstruction?  The effectiveness is tied to the final, net damage;  there's no good point in basing the cost on anything but that.

 

So if anything, I'd argue that the material on 106 and 107 isn't entirely clear, and even that different types of advantaged maneuvers might use different methodologies.  For me, Whirlwind Strike (and Unavoidable Blow on 151) behave exactly like Naked Advantages, where the cost basis is the total damage.  

Also, note this text from Unavoidable Blow:

 

So if you buy it on a 10d6 Offensive Strike, it's 17.  If you buy it on a 10d6 Defensive Strike, it's 17.  It doesn't matter how you get to 10d6;  what matters is that's where you're at.

Oh, and this is a case where I would allow the maneuver itself to be improved...if the damage basis for the strike increases.  NOT by switchng it to a different strike.  As I say, conceptually treat this as a Naked Advantage of a sort.

I’m not misunderstanding anything. It’s a question of build. The book presents build as a Naked Advantage and the math bears it out . However Simeon says that it should follow the rules for Power Advantages for Martial Maneuvers, fair enough. I’m just pointing out that if indeed that is how things like Whirlwind Strike should be bought under those rules then the math is wrong or rather the math is right if you accept it for a lower amount of Damage.