DCV: Penalty Skill Levels and Halving

[Sveta8]

Good Evening! Got another quick uncertainty here.

 

So, I've been working on this Growth Based Brick for a bit now. I've finally got them pretty well stated out confidently, and am trying to figure out their regular viability in combat. This led me straight into their DCV and some questions on that. Namely, as they grow to Enormous, that applies a pretty hefty -4 DCV Penalty at any time they are large. Not only that, but one of the main manuver that I figured for them was to grab opponents and to Slam or Throw them most of the time. So sitting solidly at a 7DCV down to a 3, and then potentially halving that, I am a might bit... curious on ways to assist that, and have questions there.

 

1: Can Penalty Skill Levels be applied to DCV penalties due to Size? I'm not seeing anything against it, but just wanted to cover the bases.

2: Can Penalty Skill Levels be applied to DCV Halving due to conditions? While I am not seeing anything for it, I'm not specifically seeing anything against it either. And Considering Grab has a seperate Optional Penalty list if the Grabber is 20+ strength above their foe, I thought that, eh, it might work?

3: Am I thinking of Penalty Skill levels right, or am I looking for something else?

[dmjalund]

Size is a bonus to attackers OCV, not a penalty to targets DCV, and is not halved by manoeuvres.

 

[unclevlad]

When a maneuver says you're at 1/2 DCV, yes, it's intended to be NASTY.

 

IIRC, the order is

 

1.  add any bonuses to DCV (from other things)

2.  apply the 1/2 DCV

3.  apply any other penalties to DCV

 

If you're planning to emphasize Slams and Throws, you build a Tank/Brick who takes a full .50 caliber vehicle mounted machine gun burst in his back and goes, "thanks, I had an itch back there!"

 

Building very large, *playable* characters isn't easy, especially going past the first level.  Both the 20' tall and 5 ton mass impose some serious staging limits.

[Sveta8]

Hrm...
Well then, That is going to be complicated. Both as if the opponent is granted the +4 OCV, I can't truly do much about that. I'll simply need to either have a horrific DCV normally, or lean more heavily into the Defensive Abilities, as the attacks thrown my way will rarely miss.

 

However... both of these statements fail to address if a Penalty Skill level can apply against the -1/2 DCV of Grabbing. Just that it is intended to be penalizing, and that Size grants the foe OCV, not a DCV penalty.

 

If you are meaning to state that I should not worry about DCV and trying to avoid attacks with a character of such size, please say so. Points put towards DCV might better be put elsewhere then.

 

As for the Height and Mass Limitations? Those are already factored in as majorly disadvantageous Limitations. What can be mitigated with Crawlspace Ace (Removing OCV/DCV penalties for squeezing or cluttered space) has been taken, and some choice CSL's for dealing with HTH work has been factored in. Potentially considering a point in Stretching, Limitation usable only for squeezing and so. I am well aware it won't be easy, but I want to make it work.

[Ninja-Bear]

@Sveta8, technically you cannot use Penalty Skill Levels to offset Grappling penalties. However if you use the +20 STR more than Grabbee optional rule, you change your DCV from -1/2 to -1.

[Sveta8]

28 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

@Sveta8, technically you cannot use Penalty Skill Levels to offset Grappling penalties. However if you use the +20 STR more than Grabbee optional rule, you change your DCV from -1/2 to -1.

Well, that is... well!

 

Makes me hopeful that that rule is used then. If not? Well, some extra health and armor wouldn't be remiss then! Thanks for your time.

Man, that DCV is gonna be in the toilet.

[Ninja-Bear]

2 hours ago, unclevlad said:

When a maneuver says you're at 1/2 DCV, yes, it's intended to be NASTY.

 

IIRC, the order is

 

1.  add any bonuses to DCV (from other things)

2.  apply the 1/2 DCV

3.  apply any other penalties to DCV

 

If you're planning to emphasize Slams and Throws, you build a Tank/Brick who takes a full .50 caliber vehicle mounted machine gun burst in his back and goes, "thanks, I had an itch back there!"

 

Building very large, *playable* characters isn't easy, especially going past the first level.  Both the 20' tall and 5 ton mass impose some serious staging limits.

You need to switch steps two and three. Halving is the Last Step in determining DCV.

@Sveta8, yeah I have a buddy that complains about the 1/2 DCV thing which is why the last time I just used the optional rule as the defacto rule. I’ve been playing around with a custom talent for Grappling too. Also note that you can only get your DCV halved once. So if there’s multiple modifiers that would have you individually together you only get dinged once. 

[Sveta8]

23 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

You need to switch steps two and three. Halving is the Last Step in determining DCV.

@Sveta8, yeah I have a buddy that complains about the 1/2 DCV thing which is why the last time I just used the optional rule as the defacto rule. I’ve been playing around with a custom talent for Grappling too. Also note that you can only get your DCV halved once. So if there’s multiple modifiers that would have you individually together you only get dinged once. 

 

shrug

I hope that alternate rule will be used. Makes more sense even with a Growth-ed Character to be less impeded. But, if not? Well... Just hope the GM will be okay with slightly more inflated Defense then. Cause otherwise, that's gonna smart!

[unclevlad]

If your base DCV is only 7, AND you have 2 levels of Growth....the 1/2 DCV basically means almost nothing.  (My bad on the order, didn't want to double check.  I avoid 1/2 OCV or DCV as much as I can.)  If the other guys start with, let's say, a base 8 OCV, they're 12 against you.  They hit on a 16-, which means they MISS 1 time in....54.  IOW, basically, they don't.  

 

3d6 has 216 outcomes

17- hits 215  (so over 99%)

16 -- 212 (98%)

15 -- 206 (~95%)

14 -- 196 (~90%)

13 -- 181 (~ 83%)

12 -- 160 (~ 74%)

11 -- 135 (62.5%)

10 -- 108 (50%)

 

So you're almost constantly taking STUN...and the +12 from the Growth isn't gonna go very far, most likely.  

 

Let's just say the opponents have SPD 5 and 8 OCV.  If I've got an 8 DCV, and with my defenses, I take 18 STUN...shouldn't be enough to stun me...that's 54 STUN per turn, cuz I'll typically get hit 3 times.  For you to take the same total STUN in the turn, you need to knock the damage down to 11 per.  So, you need a bit more BEFORE tacking on the Def from Growth to achieve the same level, using these numbers.

 

And if my typical DCV is even 9...I get hit 2.5 times to your 5 times.  I take about 45 STUN per turn...so you need to knock it down to 9 per phase.

[Sveta8]

8 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

If your base DCV is only 7, AND you have 2 levels of Growth....the 1/2 DCV basically means almost nothing.  (My bad on the order, didn't want to double check.  I avoid 1/2 OCV or DCV as much as I can.)  If the other guys start with, let's say, a base 8 OCV, they're 12 against you.  They hit on a 16-, which means they MISS 1 time in....54.  IOW, basically, they don't.  

 

3d6 has 216 outcomes

17- hits 215  (so over 99%)

16 -- 212 (98%)

15 -- 206 (~95%)

14 -- 196 (~90%)

13 -- 181 (~ 83%)

12 -- 160 (~ 74%)

11 -- 135 (62.5%)

10 -- 108 (50%)

 

So you're almost constantly taking STUN...and the +12 from the Growth isn't gonna go very far, most likely.  

 

Let's just say the opponents have SPD 5 and 8 OCV.  If I've got an 8 DCV, and with my defenses, I take 18 STUN...shouldn't be enough to stun me...that's 54 STUN per turn, cuz I'll typically get hit 3 times.  For you to take the same total STUN in the turn, you need to knock the damage down to 11 per.  So, you need a bit more BEFORE tacking on the Def from Growth to achieve the same level, using these numbers.

 

And if my typical DCV is even 9...I get hit 2.5 times to your 5 times.  I take about 45 STUN per turn...so you need to knock it down to 9.

 

Lots of very useful information here, but also a lot of supposition that is also... unhelpful. The following information is miscellaneous information for the campaign that I didn't include for sake of brevity in the original post.

 

1: This is a 300 pt game, not a 400pt one. That may change starting assumptions.

2: Campaign max for OCV/DCV was set at 10

3: Due to primarily working on Area of Effect Attacks and Grabs, the spare CSL's were aiming towards DCV, and would average to around 8-9 from my personal testing.

 

All of this is to say that while the 1/2 DCV will do basically nothing, it will do something, which is the point. I am not trying to swing the 50% Hit/Miss Ratio instead of the 52.5%, but a lot closer to the 90% instead of 95%. Lower would be great, and thus why I was hopeful that the Size bonus to hit was a DCV penalty for me, not an OCV bonus for the opponent. Since it isn't, I'll have to be working with what I have. 

 

Moreover, the 1/2 DCV will change how I look at attempting to have defensive capabilities. If I know trying to avoid the hits is going to be a lot harder than I hoped due to the types of bonus's and penalties that are going around, I can plan accordingly. That's why I ask. Both to know if I could simply snag Penalty Skill Levels for DCV, or if I should invest in Extra Defensive abilities instead. In this case, the latter seems to be the case.

[unclevlad]

It wasn't a supposition, it was simply defining the relative characteristics so the example could be completely defined.  I picked an OCV slightly higher than yours, on the expectation that most bricks have lower DCVs than average.  If the bad guys actually have OCVs of 9 and 10, then you're in mediocre shape BEFORE the Growth.

 

Wait a sec.  Grab's just -2 DCV...so, what, you're trying to pull off Multiple Attack using Grab?  If that's the case, I suspect you're trying to do too much for the point level.

[Sveta8]

Fair point each. As for if the bad guys actually have OCV's of 9 and 10, that I can not say for certain. Only time and a few sessions under my belt will let me know that. Average was listed between 6 and 7, so I sat there.

As for performing Multiple Attack Using Grab... I do not quite know what you mean, and thus likely am not attempting that? I am intending to solely grab one foe at a time if I am grabbing, or use basic Area of Effect Attacks for groups. -2 DCV was taken from the DCV penalties for using Grab.

[Ninja-Bear]

4 hours ago, Sveta8 said:

 

shrug

I hope that alternate rule will be used. Makes more sense even with a Growth-ed Character to be less impeded. But, if not? Well... Just hope the GM will be okay with slightly more inflated Defense then. Cause otherwise, that's gonna smart!

In this case then the best advice I can give I is to ask the GM.  You can ask most certainly as a player and as a group will try to answer it. Since though the ultimate answer lies with the GM.

[unclevlad]

15 hours ago, Sveta8 said:

Fair point each. As for if the bad guys actually have OCV's of 9 and 10, that I can not say for certain. Only time and a few sessions under my belt will let me know that. Average was listed between 6 and 7, so I sat there.

As for performing Multiple Attack Using Grab... I do not quite know what you mean, and thus likely am not attempting that? I am intending to solely grab one foe at a time if I am grabbing, or use basic Area of Effect Attacks for groups. -2 DCV was taken from the DCV penalties for using Grab.

 

Yeah, but then you started worrying about 1/2 DCV.  There aren't many maneuvers where that happens;  Multiple Attack is one of them.  So when you connected them, I was (eventually) trying to figure out why.

[Sveta8]

14 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

 

Yeah, but then you started worrying about 1/2 DCV.  There aren't many maneuvers where that happens;  Multiple Attack is one of them.  So when you connected them, I was (eventually) trying to figure out why.

 

Ah! I believe I the confusion was from an assumption that I was worried about a Manuver that causes -1/2 DCV. I am more concerned with the fact that Grabbing a foe (without the optional rule for when you have 20 strength on the foe) causes 1/2 DCV. As whether I would be Slamming or Squeezing a Foe in that time, and thus likely spend a segment or two there, I was hoping to mitigate that.