A Thread For Random RPG Musings

[Old Man]

2 hours ago, tkdguy said:

 

I've seen a lot of that sentiment on the OD&D forum. I don't understand all the hate. Perhaps it's because several non-D&D games use it.

 

Near as I can tell, the conceit is that only powergamers gravitate to point based systems, while OD&D players are more interested in roleplaying and story.  (Never mind that the very same forums are overrun with discussions of how to minimax multiclassing and feats, or complaints about inherent imbalances like the uselessness of sorcerers.) 

 

Alternatively, there are the players that want to play D&D and a point based system isn't D&D by definition.  It's hard to argue with that "logic".

[tkdguy]

All about THAC0

 

 

and

 

 

[Ragitsu]

A point-buy system to determine everything or using an allotment of points to determine Attributes/statistics ("the six") rather than rolling for Attributes?

[Ninja-Bear]

6 hours ago, Old Man said:

 

Alternatively, there are the players that want to play D&D and a point based system isn't D&D by definition.  It's hard to argue with that "logic".

Heck, there are some that feel that if you aren’t rolling 6 in order, you’re doing it wrong. 
 

I have seen the argument that if you keep the bonuses small as in the Original (what a max of +1?) then rolling stats isn’t as big of a deal as in latter additions. I think the range of OD&D is -1/+1 whereas around 3rd ed is -5/+5. Personally I don’t mind stat arrays but I still wouldn’t give an 8 so the character has a -1. Who wants a negative number?

[Cygnia]

3d6 Iron Array -- and you had to declare what your class was before you rolled.

[Cygnia]

[Cygnia]

[Ragitsu]

7 hours ago, Cygnia said:

3d6 Iron Array -- and you had to declare what your class was before you rolled.

 

Did someone suggest this? I don't understand how that method would work if you were angling for a class with Attribute requirements (e.g., the AD&D 2e Paladin is primarily based on 17 Charisma).

[Cygnia]

Just some grognard horror stories from back in ancient times when I was a child...

[Duke Bushido]

Yep.

 

Iron Array predates AD&D, though I understand there are people that still use it, if pared down for the more modern versions.  Honestly, when I first bumped into it, it was with a bunch of GIs from the local (then) military base, and you had to pick class and race before rolling.

 

The rolls went to the characteristics in the order they were listed,on the sheet / on the book.

 

Even in later years, when class and race options became so numerous as to be pointless, if you were playing Iron Array and failed to qualify for your class, the GM either ruled that you got into your class by luck, when you generally sucked at everything in your class, since the more exotic the class, the more it required certain stats to get in, and the more of the the geatures of that class _relied_ on those requires stats, etc, etc, etc.

 

The other option was "well, you can always be a thief."

 

I have met two GMs (who I assume knew each other at some point, as they both had the same unique solution:

 

If you failed to get into your class. Roll 1d4 to determine if you were Fighter, Magic User, Cleric, or Thief.

 

No special classes, no special bonuses or stunts: just a bare-bones one-of-the-originals class.

 

Can't lie:  while I am not a D and D fan, I always kind of liked Iron Array; it made character creation feel more like Traveller:  didn't qualify for your dream job?  Well, there is always "Other."  No good?  You're in luck!  The Draft Boaed is calling right now!

 

 

Almost forgot:  I have seen a small handful of Iron Array DMs who played that  if your character disnt qualify for his chosen class, he defaulted to Barbarian.   I never did like that idea, and I  kind of like barbarians.

 

 

[Ragitsu]

3 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

The other option was "well, you can always be a thief."

 

With that sort of play, they would be relatively abundant...

 

(Insert joke about the world being run by thieves here.)

[Cygnia]

I tried an Iron Array game online once for 3.5.  I actually wanted a thief.

 

My rolls SUCKED. 9 in my dex and I don't want to remember the others.

 

The game did not last long regardless.

[Cygnia]

[Sketchpad]

9 hours ago, Cygnia said:

3d6 Iron Array -- and you had to declare what your class was before you rolled.

 

Back in the day, when we first started playing RPGs with 1e, that was the way we thought stats were rolled. After some time, rather than roll and extra die, we would roll three characters at a time and choose the best array of stats.

[tkdguy]

Back in the early days, stats didn't mean much, except for a chance to get the XP bonus for high prime requisites. So it was possible to have a fighter with strength below 9, and so on. Note that penalties for low prime requisites also applied back then.

[Scott Ruggels]

4 hours ago, Cygnia said:

Egafs! What a horrible table!  

[Cygnia]

[Cygnia]

[Cygnia]

[Old Man]

8 hours ago, Cygnia said:

 

In all seriousness, playing a useless or dead character isn't fun (usually).  So I tend to minmax characters for purposes of resilience, especially when playing in a new system where I'm unsure what the lethality is like.

[Duke Bushido]

On 1/2/2023 at 6:29 AM, Ragitsu said:

A point-buy system to determine everything or using an allotment of points to determine Attributes/statistics ("the six") rather than rolling for Attributes?

 

 

That second one, if I remember correctly (I didnt pay much attention when the kids were explaining it- not that I didnt want to, but I was trying to cook, repair a supply line to the kitchen faucet, and help my niece diagnose a car problem over the phone-- and they weren't talking to me, any way, but were explaining it to each other.

 

There may have been something involving points and feats, but that may have been wishful thinking on their part.  

 

As for those opposed it...

 

Well, regardless of what they say, I think it is the same mislaid belief that causes some people to root for billionaires: that insane notion that it is almost their turn to be one.

 

Similarly, if pressed (not by me, as I haven't any to give about DnD, but the conversations appear all over the net, and are free to read)

 

At any rate, those willing to discuss their reasons for not wanting to use the points-buy option, while generally denying it, still manage to give the impression that it is because of how incredibly likely it is that the very next character they roll up in front of the DM will have straight 18s-  you know: because of how common that is. 

 

Wont lie, though:  all this talk of Iron Array has made me a but nostalgic for some truly old school And-  just a night or two, I mean: Iron Array, four classes, four races.  Go!

 

 

[Cygnia]

[Cygnia]

[Cygnia]

[Cygnia]