Drain vs any single power

[Tech]

I've looked at the Drain advantages but I don't think any of them quite fit. I'm designing a villain who can drain any superpower, but only 1 at a time.

ex: If a hero has Barrier, Blast and Flight, he can pick which one to apply his drain to.

 

As long as he's aware of any power a hero has, he can apply his Drain to it but only one power at a time. Did I miss the advantage/how would you build this?

[Barton]

Which Version 5 or 6?

[Tech]

22 minutes ago, Barton said:

Which Version 5 or 6?

Either/or. 5th if I must pick an edition but know 6th as well.

[eepjr24]

1 hour ago, Tech said:

I've looked at the Drain advantages but I don't think any of them quite fit. I'm designing a villain who can drain any superpower, but only 1 at a time.

ex: If a hero has Barrier, Blast and Flight, he can pick which one to apply his drain to.

 

As long as he's aware of any power a hero has, he can apply his Drain to it but only one power at a time. Did I miss the advantage/how would you build this?

From a pure rules standpoint, you might be able to do it if the GM has defined the allowed special effects in their setting. You would use Variable Effect (6E1, 142) in combination with Variable Special Effects from (6E APG1, 55). Depending on how broad the GM has his special effects set out, this could get fairly expensive but that is probably good since we are talking about an optional rule on a caution sign advantage. Since it's a villain, personally I would just set an arbitrary number for the total special effect categories and call that "all of them". Depending on how broad you want to go that could be as few as say 6 (Magic, Genetic, Technology, Symbiotic/Parasitic, Alien, Other) or as broad as hundreds or thousands (Fire, Ice, Vehicle Based, Power Suit based, Mutant, Time, Teleport, etc.). Personally, this looks powerful but not game breaking, so I would probably set it to +2 (128 special effects). So for +2 1/2 you could affect one power of any special effect, one at a time.

 

The normal caveats about do what works for your game, etc. apply.

 

- E

[Grailknight]

Simple enough, just give him a Variable Power Pool  for Drains.

[Tech]

16 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

Simple enough, just give him a Variable Power Pool  for Drains.

Funny. I was beginning to think about that myself.

[Ninja-Bear]

35 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

Simple enough, just give him a Variable Power Pool  for Drains.

That’s a nice idea! I think that there is an advantage called expanded effect and at the +2 cost you can choose any Power to Drain.

[eepjr24]

31 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

That’s a nice idea! I think that there is an advantage called expanded effect and at the +2 cost you can choose any Power to Drain.

Close. Expanded Effect at the +4 level lets you affect all of the powers of a given special effect at once. 

 

1 hour ago, Grailknight said:

Simple enough, just give him a Variable Power Pool  for Drains.

 

That is simple. For a 60 point Pool and 60 point control that would be 105 RP. [Math: (60 + ((30*3)/2) assumptions: Cosmic(+2), Drains Only (-1)]

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

@eepjr24 yeah what I should’ve said was Varying Effect Advantage.  I’ll double check when I get a chance but I know that there is an advantage of what the OP wants.

[eepjr24]

2 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

@eepjr24 yeah what I should’ve said was Varying Effect Advantage.  I’ll double check when I get a chance but I know that there is an advantage of what the OP wants.

I laid it out in my post. Variable Effect just lets you switch within a given special effect. To switch special effects you need the APG.

[Ninja-Bear]

Just now, eepjr24 said:

I laid it out in my post. Variable Effect just lets you switch within a given special effect. To switch special effects you need the APG.

Ok, I missed that point. 

[Ninja-Bear]

@Tech since I don’t have APG, I’d say having a +2 Advantage is enough of a price. I’m thinking if you can affect 4 powers at once with Expanded Effect then using that to represent any Power one at a time is roughly equal.

[eepjr24]

15 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

@Tech since I don’t have APG, I’d say having a +2 Advantage is enough of a price. I’m thinking if you can affect 4 powers at once with Expanded Effect then using that to represent any Power one at a time is roughly equal.

Oddly, even at that price it is still more expensive than the VPP unless you load it up with limitations. Assuming a 60 AP Drain (before Variable Effect (VE)) and -1 worth of lims, the VE would be 90 RP, the VPP would be 82 RP. At -2 worth of lims, the VE would be 60 RP, the VPP would be 75 RP. Even in the cases where you load it with limitations the VPP is more versatile since you can switch the limitations on every casting.

 

[Math for -1: (60 + ((15*3)/2) assumptions: Cosmic(+2), Drains Only (-1)]

[Math for -2: (60 + ((10*3)/2) assumptions: Cosmic(+2), Drains Only (-1)]

 

I've always thought of VPPs as too expensive, but for some versatile power structures they are reasonable.

 

- E

[Ninja-Bear]

@eepjr24, I didn’t really do any math and plus (if I didn’t say it before) have the APG. However it’s good that you did the math for the VPP.  It’s nice that at to have a decent alternative method.

[eepjr24]

1 minute ago, Ninja-Bear said:

@eepjr24, I didn’t really do any math and plus (if I didn’t say it before) have the APG. However it’s good that you did the math for the VPP.  It’s nice that at to have a decent alternative method.

Yup, I was not trying to discount your math, just was surprised the VPP came out competitive.

[Ninja-Bear]

10 minutes ago, eepjr24 said:

Yup, I was not trying to discount your math, just was surprised the VPP came out competitive.

Oh you weren’t. I just figured that since I didn’t have APG and if I was going to GM/House Rule, what would be a fair cost?

[unclevlad]

On 10/6/2020 at 3:50 PM, eepjr24 said:

Oddly, even at that price it is still more expensive than the VPP unless you load it up with limitations. Assuming a 60 AP Drain (before Variable Effect (VE)) and -1 worth of lims, the VE would be 90 RP, the VPP would be 82 RP. At -2 worth of lims, the VE would be 60 RP, the VPP would be 75 RP. Even in the cases where you load it with limitations the VPP is more versatile since you can switch the limitations on every casting.

 

[Math for -1: (60 + ((15*3)/2) assumptions: Cosmic(+2), Drains Only (-1)]

[Math for -2: (60 + ((10*3)/2) assumptions: Cosmic(+2), Drains Only (-1)]

 

I've always thought of VPPs as too expensive, but for some versatile power structures they are reasonable.

 

- E

 

No, quite often with a very narrow VPP, they're potentially cheap, but your math construction is wrong, or at least unclear.

The base VPP cost for 60 real, 60 active, drains only is 60 (pool size) + 30 (control cost) *3 (cosmic) / 2 (limited powers allowed in VPP), or 105.

If you MUST apply -1 Limitations to each Drain, then you can build it as

Real Cost 30 + Control Cost ( [base 30, x3 for Cosmic] --> 90, with -1 1/2 LImits (-1 Drains Only as aVPP only modifier, -1/2 Variable Limitations as a common modifier) --> 36 points.  Total:  66 points.  The real cost is 30 because the -1 limitation knocks the 60 active down to 30 real...but that applies only for the common modifiers, NOT the VPP modifier.

If you can retain completely common limitations attached to all drains...which makes far more sense, you get 90 with a -2 limitation, or 30 for the control cost....so 60 points.

 

As a straight Drain with a broad advantage, the killer is gonna be that the Advantage raises the Active cost....and therefore the END.  For the sake of argument, let's say Any One Single Power is a +1.  That's a hefty advantage, as long as the power's not being built abusively.  (Tons of advantages included on minimal base points...the additional advantage means little or nothing.  Like, say, 1" teleport with +3 Megascale.)  That's 120;  with the same -1 limitations it's right back to 60.  HOWEVER...the END cost goes to 12.

 

Side note:  if you wanna squeeze points...not necessarily something I'd do with a villain, but speaking generally...go with 1/2 phase, and keep the skill roll.  NOW tack on Requires a Skill Roll as a common modifier...because you can use the same skill.

For example, say your baseline is a 10d6 Blast with 1/2 END...62 active.  

 

Real Cost 35 (requires a skill roll gives you -1/2;  you will need an additional 1/4 limitation but there are several very mild such available for Blast)

Control cost is 62/2 = 31;  Half Phase to change is +1/2 --> 46.  Limited power (blasts only, call it -1/2 if ANY Blast is possible...Blast is insanely versatile) --> 31  again.  So 66 for this.  Mind...you need the skill roll, and it's at -6.  Call this 21 points;  that's 9 levels, so if you buy even a 13 INT, your skill rolls are 15-.  STILL..it's any Blast.  NNDs.  Autofire.  Physical.  Energy.  Tweak the limitation to the need;  I love Beam and Limited Range.

Now, if you want to apply No Skill Roll...the Real Cost doesn't get the break.

 

Real Cost 50 (62 with the same implied 1/4 limit) + 31 (control) --> 77 (1/2 phase, no skill roll).  Same -1/2 Blasts only cuts that to 51, so a total of101 points.  Sure, no skill rolls, but even paying for the skill roll, you're looking at 87.  It's the double-barreled nature of the cost savings for the skill roll that makes it *extremely* sweet;  you're not *raising* the cotrol cost, you actually get to reduce it;  and, as a common modifier, you get to drop the pool size.  Remember that it'll work less effectively if you slap on more common limitations, tho;  it's the decreasing value of additional limitations.  

[Hugh Neilson]

On 10/6/2020 at 3:50 PM, eepjr24 said:

Oddly, even at that price it is still more expensive than the VPP unless you load it up with limitations. Assuming a 60 AP Drain (before Variable Effect (VE)) and -1 worth of lims, the VE would be 90 RP, the VPP would be 82 RP. At -2 worth of lims, the VE would be 60 RP, the VPP would be 75 RP. Even in the cases where you load it with limitations the VPP is more versatile since you can switch the limitations on every casting.

 

[Math for -1: (60 + ((15*3)/2) assumptions: Cosmic(+2), Drains Only (-1)]

[Math for -2: (60 + ((10*3)/2) assumptions: Cosmic(+2), Drains Only (-1)]

 

I've always thought of VPPs as too expensive, but for some versatile power structures they are reasonable.

 

I don't get your math.  A 60 point VPP costs 60 points.  The Control Cost starts at half of the VPP (30), Cosmic (x3) = 90 and -2 in Limitations, plus -1 for Drains Only, drops that to 30 (accepting, for the moment, that -1 is appropriate for "only drains", rather than "only adjustment powers").  But note that this VPP can hold three drains at a time (6d6 STR Drain, 60 AP, 20 RP; 6d6 DEX Drain, 60 AP, 20 RP and 6d6 END Drain, 60 AP, 20 RP).  I don't recall whether 5e would allow those to be used in a multiple power attack, though, and if not there's no real benefit.

 

 Now, if we load that 6e VPP up with limitations, the price goes way down.  We need a 20 point pool, with a Control cost of half the maximum AP (60/2 = 30) x 3 for Cosmic = 90, -2 in Limitations and -1 for Drains Only and we are down to 30+20=50 points for a 60 AP Drain with -2 in Limitations which we can change as we see fit. 

 

BTW, with a VPP, that's not just "change what we drain".  We could add other advantages (Range in 5e; Reduced END; reduced fade rate; even "affect more things at the same time" if we are so inclined; AVAD:  Flash Defense for that obnoxious Power Defense opponent; Area of Effect; etc.)

 

As any character becomes more versatile, there comes a point where the VPP would be a more efficient choice to model that versatility.