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20 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

 

You need Indirect for any power to go thru walls because you can't perceive the area on the other side. Area of Effect powers are stopped by them unless they knock down the wall which your Mental powers won't do. You can't use Mental Powers against people inside an opaque Barrier. The wall having Mental Defense would only mean that it protects against Powers that do have Indirect or against Mind Scan which has Indirect built in.

If regular Armor doesn’t stop mental powers then walks ain’t going to to stop it either.

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6 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

If regular Armor doesn’t stop mental powers then walks ain’t going to to stop it either.

 

But you have LOS to the individual wearing the armor, you don't to the targets behind the wall. 

 

LOS and Mental Powers have some unique interactions in the rules that are more restrictive than those that apply to others. You need to establish it to use a Mental Power against a single target or an area. By RAW , you can't do this even with a penetrative or indirect sense without GM permission(Mind Scan being the RAW method.) Just adding AoE doesn't obviate the need for LOS to the targets.

 

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1 hour ago, Grailknight said:

 

You need Indirect for any power to go thru walls because you can't perceive the area on the other side. Area of Effect powers are stopped by them unless they knock down the wall which your Mental powers won't do. You can't use Mental Powers against people inside an opaque Barrier. The wall having Mental Defense would only mean that it protects against Powers that do have Indirect or against Mind Scan which has Indirect built in.

Well what if the villain can see through walls, i took LOS to mean as long as they can perceive the area they can target it, so if this villain can see the area he can target it, correct?

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4 hours ago, cbat007 said:

Well what if the villain can see through walls, i took LOS to mean as long as they can perceive the area they can target it, so if this villain can see the area he can target it, correct?

 

By RAW you cannot establish LOS for a Mental Power with any Indirect sense or a Penetrative one with the exception of Mind Scan.  

 

There is a play balance reason for this even if it does not make sense. It enables some pretty abusive builds otherwise.

 

I myself allow it through Clairsentience but with the same drawback as Mind Scan, the target knows where you are but this is purely my House Rule. 

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On 10/10/2020 at 6:00 PM, Grailknight said:

 

You need Indirect for any power to go thru walls because you can't perceive the area on the other side. Area of Effect powers are stopped by them unless they knock down the wall which your Mental powers won't do. You can't use Mental Powers against people inside an opaque Barrier. The wall having Mental Defense would only mean that it protects against Powers that do have Indirect or against Mind Scan which has Indirect built in.

Line of Sight is the Range of mental powers. AFAIK, you don't need any special modifier to go through walls. Unless a wall has Mental Defense.

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As Rules As Written only eyes and Mind Scan can be used to establish Line of Sight on Mental Powers. Also, Rules As Written forbids using mechanical devices to extend Line of Sight. 

 

The book basically uses the mentalist using a television showing a live broadcast. The mentalist cannot use his mental powers to affect someone on live television even if he can see the person. This is a balance issue. This can not be overcome by any advantage by Rules as Written. 

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19 hours ago, Grailknight said:

 

See my previous three responses.

 

I see your previous responses, and you don't seem to understand that LOS pertains to range. Can you clarify why you think walls block the area of mental powers, when there is nothing in the rules that says they do? Do you also think Mind Control instantly ends if someone walks behind a tree?

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32 minutes ago, pawsplay said:

 

I see your previous responses, and you don't seem to understand that LOS pertains to range. Can you clarify why you think walls block the area of mental powers, when there is nothing in the rules that says they do? Do you also think Mind Control instantly ends if someone walks behind a tree?

 

As myself and @steriaca both explained, by rule you cannot establish LOS for Mental Powers except through direct observation or Mind Scan. The rules expressly forbid using any other senses even those that see through walls. You could stand on top os a skyscraper and control people on the street below but you can't control someone in the next room through a security monitor.

 

Mind Control is a persistent power. Once established, the command given lingers until the target breaks out or the user dismisses it. LOS only has bearing on the initial attack. The attacker could die right after making the attack and the target would still be constrained to follow the order given.

 

Walls block every power not bought with Indirect. Otherwise there would be no reason to purchase Indirect except deception. Your interpretation give Indirect to any Area of Effect that has an area large enough to encompass things on the other side of the wall. So Drains, AVAD's and even Flash(arguing just game mechanics not real world sense) would go right through unless you buy defenses as part of the wall.

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You agree that LOS only applies to Mind Control as far as targeting it. It is the same with AOE powers. You don't require a sense to damage targets with a fiery explosion, and you do not to affect them with a radius fear effect. There is no special rule with Mental Powers requiring the effect to have LOS, just as you agree with as far as Mind Control.

 

p.148

 

Quote

Conventional barriers don’t stop Mental
Powers. For example, a mentalist with Penetrative
Sight could use his Mental Blast to attack a
target through a wall, so long as he could establish
LOS to the target. Once a continuing-effect
Mental Power is established, a character doesn’t
need to maintain LOS for its effects to continue, to
continue feeding END

 

And there it is. Conventional barriers don't stop Mental Powers. So as long as you can target the area, you can affect everyone in the area.

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3 hours ago, pawsplay said:

And there it is. Conventional barriers don't stop Mental Powers. So as long as you can target the area, you can affect everyone in the area.

That is true. A person behind a window can be targeted and controlled. Once he walks out of sight, he is still under that person's control. It should be noted that you have to see the area with area of effect mental powers. Either by your eyes or through Mind Scan. 

 

Note: once under control you still have to issue the command. I believe with Area of Effect Mind Control your limited to one command that everyone has to follow. You can't say order one guy to drive a car and the rest to riot.

 

Of course, individual orders might be doable under Selective. Then again, this might be a call for Mr. Long. Prehaps he already answered this question.

 

Of course, it goes without saying 'It's Your Game'. Just make sure what your interptation of the rules are the same for everyone, not just for NPCs.

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