Crits and such

[HeroGM]

Transferring some weapons from that d20 system. Was wondering how you'd do the crit damage as well as piercing/bashing/etc...

 

 

[greypaladin_01]

Personally I have never really worried about criticals with HERO.  But I suppose you could easily do something where you define what would count as a crit and then give a few DCs onto the weapon to simulate the crit multipliers.

 

As far as the 'type' of damage that really would not matter for most things since it is more Special Effect.  However you might have your skeletons get +5 Armour (not vs Blunt) or something to help simulate the d20 effects.

Not sure how much this helps you.

[Duke Bushido]

Many years ago, in an attempt to appease some D&D converts, I had players roll on the hit location chart, and declared head shots to be "critical hits." 

That lead down the rabbit hole of "but X is also extra damage!" etc. 

 

Then I tried the "make your roll by half" and "make it by 1/3" and even "make it by six or more," etc. 

 

They _all_ work, but the D&D converts complained that in some match-up, a critical hit just wasn't possible.  Between us, I prefer it that way.  I just don't see ol' drunk Bubba having a 5 percent chance of cold-clocking Bruce Lee any more than I see a ten year old kid having a 5 percent chance of insta-killing Iron Man.

 

Now if you want to stay within the realm of Hero, any sort of "make your roll by X" works, but frankly, if you are wanting a D&D-style Critical Hit--  and I never see this suggested here-  have your players roll 3d6 plus 1d20.  If it hits _and_ you come up with a "nat 20,"  Boom!  Critical hit! 

 

Now as for just what that means, that's up to you (and the reason I was using the Hit Location chart). 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

1 hour ago, ChaosDrgn said:

Transferring some weapons from that d20 system. Was wondering how you'd do the crit damage as well as piercing/bashing/etc...

 

 

For piercing damage and such can just be sfx. Iirc it’s in fifth ed Bestiary, skeletons have extra defense defined as versus Piercing damage. You could have extra damage with an Activation Roll say 8- to represent critical damage.

[ScottishFox]

Given the very limited amount of BOD/STUN characters typically have and how fast that damage leads to being stunned, KO'd or killed a critical hit system has to be changed substantially.

 

What we ended up using is in Fantasy HERO a critical hit just guarantees a maximum damage hit.  Players have been pretty happy with it and a max damage hit that lands on 3-5, 12 or 13 generally stuns or KOs an opponent - especially when 2-handed weapons are in play.

 

When we were playing champions guaranteed maximum damage was just too much.  12d6 blast going directly to 24 BOD/72 STUN was one-shotting folks.

For champions we set the crit effect to roll 1/2 of the dice on the attack.  The rest of the dice are 6s.

 

 

[pawsplay]

A weapon with an expanded crit range in D&D usually just has +1 OCV in Hero System. Which logically helps against hit locations.

If you wanted to translate a 5e barbarian's brutal critical, try Deadly Blow (blows to neck).  A fighter (champion)'s Improved Critical is probably just two CSLs.

Honestly there aren't a lot of D&D weapons that don't already have Hero stats somewhere. Is there something you're struggling with?

[Ockham's Spoon]

The problem with critical hits is that they can be used against PCs too...

 

A couple of house rules we have used are if you roll a natural 3 on 3d6 you do maximum damage.  Doesn't happen often, but when it does it is usually a one-shot takedown.  The other is if you roll 1/2 or less of what you needed to hit, you get to roll damage dice twice and then pick the better of the two rolls.  That mostly grew out of player being frustrated when they would roll a 6 to hit and then roll a bunch of 1s for damage which seemed counter-intuitive for such a good to-hit roll.

[HeroGM]

Mainly it's the thing of 19-20 or 18-20/x3 dmg etc. It's not something I have to put in.

[IndianaJoe3]

One idea that I've seen is that a critical is +4DC, just like a Haymaker. It's nice, but you're not going to one-shot (or get one-shot by) anything.

[Stormraven]

14 hours ago, ScottishFox said:

Given the very limited amount of BOD/STUN characters typically have and how fast that damage leads to being stunned, KO'd or killed a critical hit system has to be changed substantially.

 

What we ended up using is in Fantasy HERO a critical hit just guarantees a maximum damage hit.  Players have been pretty happy with it and a max damage hit that lands on 3-5, 12 or 13 generally stuns or KOs an opponent - especially when 2-handed weapons are in play.

 

When we were playing champions guaranteed maximum damage was just too much.  12d6 blast going directly to 24 BOD/72 STUN was one-shotting folks.

For champions we set the crit effect to roll 1/2 of the dice on the attack.  The rest of the dice are 6s.

 

 

 

That's how I've done it in the past, and how I would do it in future, if my players wanted Critical Hits.

[Ninja-Bear]

15 hours ago, Ockham's Spoon said:

The problem with critical hits is that they can be used against PCs too...

Even though we play this way ourselves, there is no rule saying you have to.  Similar to look rule. Nooks can be one-shotted with a decent roll instead of tracking all the Stun and Body. (If you want too that is.) Either way is fine based on the group and genre. 

[Scott Ruggels]

I just used the Hit location tables, and if the D20 converts complained, I just passed it off as a different rules system.

[Hugh Neilson]

5 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

I just used the Hit location tables, and if the D20 converts complained, I just passed it off as a different rules system.

 

True.  If the objective is to perfectly simulate D&D, then there's no point using a different rules set.

[MordeanGrey]

We always used a simple 3-5 always hit, and a 3 was max damage for that attack. Conversely, 16-18 was an automatic miss and an 18 was a critical failure of some type. (up to GM, weapon breakage, falling down, etc.

 

We still used a separate roll for hit location and the appropriate damage modifiers.

 

It worked well (and also worked the same for the bad guys against the players).

[Ternaugh]

My group's been moving away from critical hits in Hero for some time now. While we did use maximum damage on a critical in the past, we've moved into situational bonuses* or a few extra DC of damage. Most of the time, a roll of 3 to 5 is a critical for these purposes. Likewise, an 18 usually involves a situational penalty.

 

 

 

 

*Penetrating during a fight with a troll, or AP against a heavily armored foe, for example. For most spells, I usually add between 2 and 4 DCs of extra effect.

[Scott Ruggels]

18 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

True.  If the objective is to perfectly simulate D&D, then there's no point using a different rules set.

Exactly. It seems counterproductive to use Hero to closely emulate the  mechanics of a D20 system, when that system works fine me as intended. Hero, due to its flexibility, can, with work, emulate the effects of 5e D&D, but why? There are different assumptions between the two systems.  I am a little depressed at how many articles here are about emulating D&D spells and effects. If you like D&D, except X or Y, then it would be a lot less effort to house rule those issues; than to make a conversion to Hero. Character progression between the characters two systems is vastly different as well, to say nothing about the class system. Best to borrow a few things here and there’s, and just build out the rest inHero.  

[Ninja-Bear]

I just thought last night (at work), how about Trigger (perhaps on Deadly Blow) only when throwing a 3-4? 

[pawsplay]

6 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

Exactly. It seems counterproductive to use Hero to closely emulate the  mechanics of a D20 system, when that system works fine me as intended. Hero, due to its flexibility, can, with work, emulate the effects of 5e D&D, but why? There are different assumptions between the two systems.  I am a little depressed at how many articles here are about emulating D&D spells and effects. If you like D&D, except X or Y, then it would be a lot less effort to house rule those issues; than to make a conversion to Hero. Character progression between the characters two systems is vastly different as well, to say nothing about the class system. Best to borrow a few things here and there’s, and just build out the rest inHero.  

Simulating spells is a little different, since you need to have similar kinds of spells if you want a similar milieu. Like if a D&D wizard can throw a fireball, then a Hero wizard needs to be able to throw a fireball.  An Eberron warforged has some construct-like traits, whatever rules-set you are using.

[Scott Ruggels]

11 hours ago, pawsplay said:

Simulating spells is a little different, since you need to have similar kinds of spells if you want a similar milieu.

 

 

Do you, now? Similar, maybe, but not the same. Mechanics and assumptions are different. But then again, it goes back to why one emulating a D&D background in the first place. I itch that comes the baggage of class, and class advancement, and with published adventures, that advancement is almost baked in. The incremental and measured Hero Advancement as well as the point costs of several new spells per level kind of bend Hero out of shape, especially when trying to balance encounters. Also those levels expand capability, but do not expand DCV or defenses evenly. There is no Hero equivalent to the addition of Hit Points every level. The assumptions of the two games are quite different. 
 

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Like if a D&D wizard can throw a fireball, then a Hero wizard needs to be able to throw a fireball. 
 

 

A fireball is an easy one though. 6D6 fireball in a 20 foot radius. For Hero again would  be  a 3 hex Radius 6e6 AOE, with appropriate limitations. And yes Flesh to stone would be a major transformation, but the point costs between the two would be radically different, so a Wizard would need to put all their points into the multi power to allow for those point jumps at the expense of their defenses and DCV. 

 

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An Eberron warforged has some construct-like traits, whatever rules-set you are using.

Eberron? No thank you. Though a Warforged-like characters have been done in Champions  for decades. Still, I have to question the utility of converting D&D to Hero, both are fun systems that do what they do, but they do things differently.  If it’s trying to entice D&D players to a “New and Better System”,  by converting things wholesale, I think it would just breed frustration in the players expecting X to work like X, and then it doesn’t. If the conversion is because of the lack of published Hero adventures, that is somewhat understandable, but then that is still a lot of effort on conversion. But even so, Hero conversions from D&D still come across like a cheap Chinese knock off of the Original. Why follow D&D, when Hero tosses the class system in the trash, and allows people to build what they want within GM’s discretion? Why stick with Faerun? Why stick with Eberron? Sure, use the background and general details, but make a Hero high fantasy. If the players balk, go back to 5e. I like 5e for what it is, (and play it a lot more often than Hero these days) but it’s a different experience than Hero. The continued effort and posts asking for 5e conversions into Hero I just find Mildly depressing, especially in a forum called Fantasy Hero. 

[pawsplay]

What's depressing about liking Faerun or Eberron? What's distressing about "how would you build cool X spell?" in Hero System?

As to the original post, Hero handles "crits" differently. They don't exist as such. But that doesn't mean, for instance, you wouldn't convert the weapon.

[Ninja-Bear]

On 10/9/2020 at 2:02 PM, ChaosDrgn said:

Transferring some weapons from that d20 system. Was wondering how you'd do the crit damage as well as piercing/bashing/etc...

 

 

Ok for the piercing and bashing, that can be sfx of weapon. Then if it’s important, you can put vulnerability on character versus bashing. Or have extra protection only versus bashing.

[Duke Bushido]

On 10/12/2020 at 6:04 PM, Ninja-Bear said:

I just thought last night (at work), how about Trigger (perhaps on Deadly Blow) only when throwing a 3-4? 

 

 

First and foremost:

 

I am _not_ declaring this invalid.  In fact, I will say that this works just as good as any other thing you might come up with.

 

I also want to point out that pawsplay is quite correct when he says that critical hits don't really exist in HERO, at least not in HERO as-is.   There are, however, no reasons that a motivated group can't come up with something if they want to.

 

 

Ninja-Bear has a long history of being a good sport, and so I selected to quote him instead of someone else saying a similar thing: "roll x to get a critical hit."

 

As I admitted above,  I have tried lots of different things to make "critical hits," simply because of the number of players who seem to think such a mechanism is extremely important, particularly in fantasy (Yeah; not sure why, but it's where I personally have seen the most push for a critical hit system).

 

If I were to adopt one permanently, it would be "make your roll by X amount."

 

It would not be "make it by half" or anything like that, because-- while it's easy to figure, there will be dispute.  Make it by X does away with a lot of that.

 

It won't be "roll a 3," ever, but let me explain:

 

Recall the small child versus Iron Man example I gave above.  Understand that there are match ups-- such as that one-- where _only_ a 3 will succeed, owing to HERO's "a 3 always hits" rule.  If a 3 is also a critical, every single time that small child manages to successfully hit Iron Man, he will do a critical hit.

 

if we adopt a "make it by 8" or something like that-- well, that's not going to happen.  There is no way to roll 8 less than 3 on 3d_anything_.    This prevents crits that are just not justifiable.

 

It also means that you _must_ roll a 3 against an evenly-matched opponent.  If your CVs are equal, you need an 11-; subtract 8, and you need a 3.  So it's still possible, but clearly it's not just skill; there's a bit of luck involved as well.

 

The other side of that coin  is that Iron Man will have a much better chance of doing a crit on a small child than he will on an equally matched opponent.  Honestly  (keeping in mind that I am not a big fan of critical hits), I find that more....  well, I hate to use the word "satisfying," _particularly_ with the example given, but it seems more....  correct?   And opponent who noticeably outclasses you should, by virtue of training and skill, have a better chance of getting a critical against you, whereas your odds of landing a perfect strike against an opponent who is more skilled and practiced should rely more on luck than ability.

 

 

So that's kind of what I'd go with.   

 

I'm not saying it's right, or that it's the best, or anything like that.  Just saying that it's what I'd go with, and explaining why.

[eepjr24]

On 10/9/2020 at 2:02 PM, ChaosDrgn said:

Transferring some weapons from that d20 system. Was wondering how you'd do the crit damage as well as piercing/bashing/etc...

You've had plenty of responses here with some options and lots of opinions about why you should not bother. I'll not add any more to the latter. 😃

 

I have done a lot of 5e conversions and if you want to see an alternative way of handling the whole piercing / slashing / bludgeoning versus armor, take a look at @Killer Shrike armor system. It's complex but an interesting take IMO. http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/armamentsNotes.aspx#ARMOR

 

- E

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

Aha! I just thought of this for various armors. Use Damage Negation (I said no more than 1D6). So say Plate is good against Slicing attacks then its DN: slicing. 

[Chris Goodwin]

I've thought of different ideas for crits.  Like, choose from one of the following:

• Maximum damage (the default)
• Choice of hit location
• Ignore some armor (maybe half, maybe all)
• Automatic impairing or disabling wound (making it an actual "critical hit" -- hitting something critical to the functioning of the opponent)
• Some other choice for the player (eye shot?  Cut off arm?)
• Luck roll (also triggering target's Unluck)