Variable Limitations: Charges

[eepjr24]

Thoughts on allowing Charges in a Variable Limitation? My caveats would be that the player could only elect Charges on the first use of the day and the Charges would remain in the Variable Limitations for the full day. So if they had Variable Limitations at the 1/2 level, requiring -1 in limitations, they could elect to have 4 charges at the beginning of the day and that would be set for the day. Or they could elect to have 8 charges plus Costs End. In a later turn he could spend a full phase and change that to 8 charges plus Full Phase (the number of charges remaining would be the same as before). Then he could change it again after having spent 4 charges to 8 charges plus Requires 4 charges per use and get one more shot for the day. 

 

To change this he would have to spend a full phase in the new day, just like switching normally, before he used the power with Charges assigned.

 

- E

[Tech]

I think it's okay. Any other thoughts? I don't see it as rules breaking and it's a refreshing change of pace.

[unclevlad]

I'd say that the charges are simply fixed and NO changes are allowed until the recovery time AND recovery conditions (if the player tries to slap Restricted Recovery on) are met.  It's the only way you can force the player to honor the charges costing structure, IMO.  

 

An exception would be if no charges have been used, AND the player can justify a power swap during the day, but this isn't something I'd consider automatic at all...and definitely not simply a full phase.  If nothing else, this is simply to keep things clean, and the game moving.  

 

Otherwise, I do see it as abusable...because it can be a way to get 0 END as part of a "limitation."  

 

[eepjr24]

13 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

I'd say that the charges are simply fixed and NO changes are allowed until the recovery time AND recovery conditions (if the player tries to slap Restricted Recovery on) are met.  It's the only way you can force the player to honor the charges costing structure, IMO.  

 

An exception would be if no charges have been used, AND the player can justify a power swap during the day, but this isn't something I'd consider automatic at all...and definitely not simply a full phase.  If nothing else, this is simply to keep things clean, and the game moving.  

 

Otherwise, I do see it as abusable...because it can be a way to get 0 END as part of a "limitation."  

Ah, yes, I can see where that would be a problem in some cases. In this case it would be part of a spell in a spell system where all spells require END expenditure even if they have charges. I was riffing because I did not want to get too bogged down in the specific application, but in that case it very much matters.

 

Outside of that structure I would probably look at it a little more carefully as well. In anything outside a structured spell system it would probably be better to limit the changes to the charges portion to those specifically approved beforehand.

 

- E

[unclevlad]

OK, but for all intents and purposes the Charges is still giving him a price break because now he can take Costs END as a limitation, when he wasn't going to be able to get that before.  If this is on, say, a Blast, he can get 12 charges, costs END, and that's -1/2.  Pretty good chance that's going to greatly simplify the problem of filling out the whole -1. 

 

Other things to consider...would you allow clips?  8 clips of 4 charges that cost END is 32 charges total, and still -1/2.  

 

How long does it take to adjust a spell?  That's a big aspect here.  One very specific limitation that comes into play is Limited Power.  "Only versus demons."  Well cuz you expect to face demons.  Well when their ghoul minions suddenly swarm, if it takes little time to switch the spell to "only vs. undead" then it's hardly limiting.

[dmjalund]

one could increase the variable limitation value based on the remaining charges

[eepjr24]

On 10/13/2020 at 8:36 PM, unclevlad said:

OK, but for all intents and purposes the Charges is still giving him a price break because now he can take Costs END as a limitation, when he wasn't going to be able to get that before.  If this is on, say, a Blast, he can get 12 charges, costs END, and that's -1/2.  Pretty good chance that's going to greatly simplify the problem of filling out the whole -1. 

 

Other things to consider...would you allow clips?  8 clips of 4 charges that cost END is 32 charges total, and still -1/2.  

 

How long does it take to adjust a spell?  That's a big aspect here.  One very specific limitation that comes into play is Limited Power.  "Only versus demons."  Well cuz you expect to face demons.  Well when their ghoul minions suddenly swarm, if it takes little time to switch the spell to "only vs. undead" then it's hardly limiting.

For those and many other good reasons, Variable Limitations is a Caution Sign limitation, specifies that the GM should limit the choices and has a list of suggested choices that does not include Limited Power (Concentration, Extra Time, Gestures, Incantations, Increased Endurance Cost, Perceivable, and Side Effects). It also does not include Charges, which is why I brought the idea here, because folks are very good at seeing the exploitable holes. 😃 I might consider allowing clips if it made sense from a roleplay standpoint, but it's not likely. As to how long it takes to change, Variable Limitations take a full phase of doing nothing else at half DCV to change, per 6E. And changing clips also requires a full phase, which is rather more limiting in a Fantasy setting.

 

That does serve to reinforce why the rules are there, though. I'll look carefully at any spells the players design with this limitation. It only exists as a requirement on one spell "college" right now.

 

- E

[Hugh Neilson]

16 hours ago, dmjalund said:

one could increase the variable limitation value based on the remaining charges

 

Without thinking too hard on it, I like this idea.  You start the day applying -1/2 as 8 charges.  You use four of them, but you are seeing that they will not be enough to get you through the day.  You can trade off the limited uses, but you'll have to replace Charges with -1 of other limitations, since 4 charges (the number you have left) is a -1 limitation.

 

 

[Thia Halmades]

On 10/14/2020 at 9:31 PM, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Without thinking too hard on it, I like this idea.  You start the day applying -1/2 as 8 charges.  You use four of them, but you are seeing that they will not be enough to get you through the day.  You can trade off the limited uses, but you'll have to replace Charges with -1 of other limitations, since 4 charges (the number you have left) is a -1 limitation.

 

 

 

This. I KNEW something was bugging me, and it’s this; as the Charges are consumed, the remaining constitute a greater limitation, so Hugh is absolutely right. There’s a lot of weird variables that can be considered here, many of which were mentioned, but I think this is interesting and different. I’d allow it.

[LoneWolf]

I don’t have a problem with a character changing out charges for another limitation.  What I do have a problem is making changes to the charges limitation.  So if the character wants to replace charges with something like extra time or reduced DCV that is fine.  But once he chooses the charges limitation he cannot make changes to that or choose it again to get a new set of charges.   I would also suggest that the charges limitation be paired with a focus limitation of some kind.  

 

When I run I usually make my players come up with a list of limitations they will be using.  They can put whatever they want in the list but have to use from that list during play.  This is done mainly to speed up combat.  If they are combining limitations the combination needs to be on the list.  I may allow some substitution to the list when out of combat under the right circumstance.  For example if the wizard is lost his staff and is in the lab of another wizard he may be able to use some rare material component he finds there.