# Quick Question

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I’m creating a series of characters using the Hero system’s Champions, 6E1 & 2. I’m currently trying to create a city Strength level demon character. He can punch strong enough to create shockwaves, crater hills with sticks & dent steel with his blows. But Idk how much he lifts. What strength should I have him as?

Edited by Ashura
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4 hours ago, Ashura said:

I’m creating a series of characters using the Hero system’s Champions, 6E1 & 2. I’m currently trying to create a city Strength level demon character. He can punch strong enough to create shockwaves, crater hills with sticks & dent steel with his blows. But Idk how much he lifts. What strength should I have him as?

"A city strength level demon": I have no idea what this means; is this terminology from another game? Does it mean a city-level threat (as opposed to national threat, planetary threat, etc.)?

"Punch strong enough to create shockwaves": This isn't a function of strength.  It sounds like an attack with one or more of the advantages "Area of Effect (Cone)" or "Double Knockback".

"Dent steel with his blows": Let's go with an I-beam, which has 9 PD and 8 BODY (per 2m). It takes 10 BODY to damage and 17 BODY to break. That requires a strength of 50 or more (to deal a 10d6 punch for 10 BODY on average).

It also implies strength less than 85 (deals a 17d6 punch for 17 BODY on average).  You did specify "dent", not break.

"Crater hills": Let's go with Dirt, which has 0 PD and 10 BODY (per cubic meter). I couldn't find the volume of a hill anywhere, so let's go with the volume of a 2 bedroom house (1500 sq ft x 8 ft ceilings = 12,000 cubic feet = 340 cubic meters). Typically each doubling of mass is +1 BODY; to get 340 times the mass of the initial cubic meter, you need 9 doublings (technically x512) for +9 BODY.  So 19 BODY in a single attack will crater dirt equal to the volume of a house.  That requires a strength or 95 or more (to deal 19d6 punch for 19 BODY on average).

This is in a different league of strength than denting steel.  It's stronger than Grond, the Hulk of the Champions universe! It's probably way beyond what PCs can handle -- an average punch deals 66 damage! In short, don't let your demon do this with pure strength. Make it an Area of Effect attack that encompasses a hill and deals 10 BODY on average.

So... putting all that math aside, its much safer to start with game mechanics (how many d6 does my punch do), figure out the strength from there, and then figure out the types of things they can do with that strength. A standard superheroic campaign runs 6 - 14 damage classes, equivalent to 30 - 70 strength.

I think 50 to 60 strength is fine -- pretty standard for the brick archetype -- then maybe slap Area of Effect (Cone) on it for the shockwave/hill cratering effect.  Put some limits on the AoE, though -- charges, or increased endurance cost -- as it represents a super dangerous attack that undoubtedly breaks your campaign's active point and damage class limits.

Doug

Check out the Breaking Things chapter on p171 of 6e2

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Hay girl hay.

I’m thinking by “City Strength” you mean this is a Dark Champions style game, he’s strong, but has some limitations. All those things considered, I’m going to say this:

Broadly, you want to know what your campaign caps are. If your PCs cap at 20, you want your NPCs to (generally) cap at double that “unless” there’s a super compelling reason to go above/beyond that threshold. For me, I’d go with 40 STR to start.

Then, you want him to create shockwaves; that’s not a function of strength, that’s a Power that deals damage that for consistency you can make EQUAL to his strength (in this case, 8d6 Normal, or you can go slightly higher while adding some Extra Time to represent the wind-up), and add your appropriate modifiers, such as AOE Cone,  Knockdown, etc.

If you’re punching through dirt, you can do that as Tunneling, one of the most under utilized movement powers in the entire game.

The point of this being, I don’t think telling you what the strength of the character is actually answers your question. If we think in “HERO terms,” as I’ve said... IDK, too many times now, then we’re asking what it is we want to do, then work out the best way to do it. You wanted to bend steel — for that, just STR is sufficient. You wanted to create shockwaves, that’s a Blast AOE cone. Last but not least, moving earth is a bunch of things, but I’d go with Tunneling.

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The Ultimate Brick will show you almost everything you want.

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14 hours ago, Ashura said:

I’m creating a series of characters using the Hero system’s Champions, 6E1 & 2. I’m currently trying to create a city Strength level demon character. He can punch strong enough to create shockwaves, crater hills with sticks & dent steel with his blows. But Idk how much he lifts. What strength should I have him as?

You may have more luck explaining what kind of power level you’re looking for by using an example.   It sounds like your describing somebody like the movie version of the Hulk, maybe a little bit less.  If so then the above posts are right, your looking at a 50 to 60 strength with some extras to do things like shockwaves.

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10 hours ago, dougmacd said:

That requires a strength or 95 or more (to deal 19d6 punch for 19 BODY on average).

This is in a different league of strength than denting steel.  It's stronger than Grond, the Hulk of the Champions universe!

[Pedantry] 6E Grond, in Champions Villains Volume Three, can now exert up to STR 110, although using more than STR 90 costs him a lot more Endurance. [/pedantry]

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Do you think a Strength of 9, 10 & 12 respectively could do good compared to high stats? If not, why?

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8 hours ago, Ashura said:

Do you think a Strength of 9, 10 & 12 respectively could do good compared to high stats? If not, why?

If you look at the Character Ability Guidelines Table in 6E1, page 35, it will give you an idea of how many Damage Classes (DC) is reasonable for a given campaign setting.  For example, a standard superheroic game has a range of 6 to 14 DCs.

So how many DCs do you get from strength?  Look at the chapter Determining Damage in 6E2, page 96.  It's basically your strength divided by 5. So:

• strength 45 = 9d6 damage = 9 DCs
• strength 50 = 10d6 damage = 10 DCs
• strength 60 = 12d6 damage = 12 DCs

In the games I've played, player characters typically had 9 to 12 DCs, so a strength of 50 to 60 would be fine for a brick -- a character who's main shtick is a high strength.

Doug

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An "average human", which is averaged from everyone from babies to special forces experts, has primary Characteristics (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Ego, Presence) of 8 each.  Player characters start with a base of 10 in those Characteristics.

A Strength of 10 is capable of lifting 100kg, and the amount doubles for every +5 STR.

Typically a character's Strength is benchmarked by figuring out how much they can lift.  If you don't know that, the next best thing is to compare them to known comic book characters: an Olympic weightlifter, Captain America, Spider-Man, Iron Man, the Thing, the Hulk.

A character who can lift 100 tons would have a Strength of 60; as a rule of thumb, 10 doublings (or +50 STR) approximates a factor of 1000.  (In "HERO System doubling" it is a factor of 1000; in real world doubling it's a factor of 1024.)

If it helps, "normal humans" have a Characteristic maximum of 20 in the primary stats; "legendary humans" could go as high as 30.  Captain America would probably be in the legendary humans category.

On 10/27/2020 at 2:42 AM, Ashura said:

Do you think a Strength of 9, 10 & 12 respectively could do good compared to high stats? If not, why?

9 is slightly higher than that mythical average human; 10 is equal to a starting player character's base value; 12 is just a little higher than that.

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