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OSR Ethical Issue


Anaximander

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On 5/23/2021 at 3:28 PM, Spence said:

Well, I am definitely a game pack rat, but I have never been able learn a game without a hardcopy.  I have a literal crap ton of ebooks, but I need a hardcopy toactually use.

 

 

I have a weird non-issue in that whenever I go to the Hero store I am often confronted with the option of PDF or hardcopy + PDF. I know the PDF is essentially a free add-on and I don't have to download it, but I always want to ask "could I just have the hard-copy ala carte, please?" Electronic copies are like carbs. As I get older, I find I don't want or need as many. 😈

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What LL and N-B said:

 

There are PDF features that i have, grudgingly, come to appreciate, such as printing a page of reference material- like a chart, for example- and searching for a quick reference during a conversation. 

 

As far as reading or using at the table, though, I have to be workinf from dead trees.

 

 

 

 

 

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I can't work from a phone or Ipad for hours. And my lack of muscle control means I can't lug a laptop from place to place around the house without dropping and breaking it.

 

So unless I want to sit at my desk 100% of the time, I need a hardcopy.

 

Most books don't catastrophically break if I drop them and need several hundreds of dollars to replace them. :) 

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4 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

What LL and N-B said:

 

There are PDF features that i have, grudgingly, come to appreciate, such as printing a page of reference material- like a chart, for example- and searching for a quick reference during a conversation. 

 

As far as reading or using at the table, though, I have to be workinf from dead trees.

 

I'm pretty much the same.  Information just doesn't stick in my mind unless I read it from an actual physical book. 

Now I am a great fan of the utility of a PDF for printing pages.  If I am using something from in game in a session I like to print it out.  I can then write notes on it as much as I want during the game.

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Searchability is definitely a plus. And some people can learn just fine from e-copies. However, there are a goodly number of studies that show, for most people, retention is somewhat lower when learning / working from e-copies than from physical texts. In addition, some learning styles are more spatially and tactilely oriented than others. Some people's brains place the information they read in the spatial context in which is was read. Their minds, at least subconsciously, remember where on the page the information was, how the printing and paper were, etc. There are exceptions, of course, but I'm not one of them. I have excellent retention when reading from hard-copies, which means I don't need to search that often, and generally know exactly where to look when I do. If I read it from an e-copy I remember far less and am constantly searching. 

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34 minutes ago, Vondy said:

Searchability is definitely a plus. And some people can learn just fine from e-copies. However, there are a goodly number of studies that show, for most people, retention is somewhat lower when learning / working from e-copies than from physical texts. In addition, some learning styles are more spatially and tactilely oriented than others. Some people's brains place the information they read in the spatial context in which is was read. Their minds, at least subconsciously, remember where on the page the information was, how the printing and paper were, etc. There are exceptions, of course, but I'm not one of them. I have excellent retention when reading from hard-copies, which means I don't need to search that often, and generally know exactly where to look when I do. If I read it from an e-copy I remember far less and am constantly searching. 

Exactly. 

 

Physical page location really impacts recall and retention of information.  In the technical manuals I've used for the last forty years, not only do you remember exactly where the information you need right now is located, but you aquire a really good working knowledge of where everything else is because you've seen it in passing so many times.  And schematics and wiring diagrams have become nightmares.  No such thing as a complete anything anymore, instead they only see snapshots, one screen at a time. 

 

These days if I am going to teach the sailors a system the first thing is to create a full system schematic (for training purposes only) or update my existing one if I've already made it. 

 

It is almost mind blowing to see the almost instant understanding when they actually see the full system in front of them in one place rather than a zillion individual snippets.  Once they understand the overall system, then "zooming in" one snippet at a time is doable. 

 

eBooks have their uses, but those are limited.

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4 hours ago, Spence said:

It is almost mind blowing to see the almost instant understanding when they actually see the full system in front of them in one place rather than a zillion individual snippets.  Once they understand the overall system, then "zooming in" one snippet at a time is doable. 

 

 

I experience a similar phenomenon with printed vs digital maps. Digital maps showing a large area blur out all the fine details, and if I zoom in to get the details I loose track of where they are in relation to the larger area. When I can see where the specific place I want is in relation to the whole picture on a printed map, I have a clearer sense of its location and how to get there.

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7 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

I experience a similar phenomenon with printed vs digital maps. Digital maps showing a large area blur out all the fine details, and if I zoom in to get the details I loose track of where they are in relation to the larger area. When I can see where the specific place I want is in relation to the whole picture on a printed map, I have a clearer sense of its location and how to get there.

Exactly.  A perfect way to describe it.

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I suspect that the results of these various studies are reflections of the fact that most of us grew up reading hardcopy texts. It should come as no surprise that our brains became optimized for extracting and retaining information from that format. However, current (and future) generations who spend most of their time consuming information from a screen will most likely have brains optimized for that, rather than for hardcopy. It's like how I can type fastest, using all my fingers, on a full-size mechanical keyboard, and not very well at all just using my thumbs on the tiny virtual keyboard of my smartphone, whereas for kids today it's the other way around.

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On 5/25/2021 at 9:56 AM, zslane said:

I suspect that the results of these various studies are reflections of the fact that most of us grew up reading hardcopy texts. It should come as no surprise that our brains became optimized for extracting and retaining information from that format. However, current (and future) generations who spend most of their time consuming information from a screen will most likely have brains optimized for that, rather than for hardcopy. It's like how I can type fastest, using all my fingers, on a full-size mechanical keyboard, and not very well at all just using my thumbs on the tiny virtual keyboard of my smartphone, whereas for kids today it's the other way around.

 

Most definitely true for us old peeps. 

But I am seeing direct adverse impacts on the young kids (or maybe I should say younger sailors :shock:).   I spend so much time pulling things together that should be available from the start, but leadership these days is so blinded by Master Degree and PhD that they don't seem to realize that those designations lost their distinction decades ago.  30 years ago it meant that they could walk into the workcenter and immediately go to work because they were Engineers with a capitol E.  Now they walk through the door and I have to explain to them what we are looking at and how to read the technical manuals. 

 

 

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Anyone who has a physical copy of a book they have legally purchased also should have the legal right to a pdf or electronic copy of that book because it is completely reasonable that they could have scanned or photoed every page for themselves.  They shouldn't sell or distribute that in any way, but I mean: you have a copy of it.

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I cannot quote you any specific case law (because I didnt bither do remember it) but back in- I think it was the 90s- it was ruled that anyone with a legal copy of something has the legal right to have _one_ back-up copy per purchased copy, be it digital or print.

 

However, the creation of that copy is on you; no one is obligated to provide it for you; you are simply entitled to create it.

 

That ruling is the driving motivator behind my collection of 2e rulebooks: when I am ready to have some nice clean reporductions made, I can make as many as I already own.

 

You are not entitled to distribute them; keep that in mind as well.

 

The biggest feather ruffling came from the fact that your original  must be legally acquired, but you are not required to have purchased it from a copyright holder or particular publisher, nor does it have to be new.

 

So if you found a copy of a book at a yard sale and bought it legally, you are legally allowed one backup copy.

 

This ruling, if i remembrr (I am old, not a lawyer, and it was a long time ago) that led to EULA putting in writing that you could make a backup copy of your software (prior to this, many companies expressly forbade it) and began to enact unique codes and such that would make a copy useless without all the little info that came packaged with it.

 

 

So yeah: if you live on the US, at least, youre good to go on making a legal back-up.

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6 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

I cannot quote you any specific case law (because I didnt bither do remember it) but back in- I think it was the 90s- it was ruled that anyone with a legal copy of something has the legal right to have _one_ back-up copy per purchased copy, be it digital or print.

 

However, the creation of that copy is on you; no one is obligated to provide it for you; you are simply entitled to create it.

 

That ruling is the driving motivator behind my collection of 2e rulebooks: when I am ready to have some nice clean reporductions made, I can make as many as I already own.

 

You are not entitled to distribute them; keep that in mind as well.

 

The biggest feather ruffling came from the fact that your original  must be legally acquired, but you are not required to have purchased it from a copyright holder or particular publisher, nor does it have to be new.

 

So if you found a copy of a book at a yard sale and bought it legally, you are legally allowed one backup copy.

 

This ruling, if i remembrr (I am old, not a lawyer, and it was a long time ago) that led to EULA putting in writing that you could make a backup copy of your software (prior to this, many companies expressly forbade it) and began to enact unique codes and such that would make a copy useless without all the little info that came packaged with it.

 

 

So yeah: if you live on the US, at least, youre good to go on making a legal back-up.

 

I seem to remember you are correct, though I can't cite any direct standard that say that.

 

When I was younger (and poorer) I would skimp every way I could to get a physical copy and then didn't think it too unreasonable to get the PDF in anyway I could. 

 

Today I am older, grayer, have exchanged my shape for a rounder one and have more disposable income.  So I don't mind buying both from a game company that I like.    A PDF may be useless to me for understanding the rules and game prep.  But it is fantastic for printing out game aids and handouts. 

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Quote

 

I think it was the 90s- it was ruled that anyone with a legal copy of something has the legal right to have _one_ back-up copy per purchased copy, be it digital or print.

 

However, the creation of that copy is on you; no one is obligated to provide it for you; you are simply entitled to create it.

 

 

That is my understanding as well.  I also think it does not permit you to, say, download a copy of something from the internet although I doubt anyone would press the issue in court.

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13 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

That is my understanding as well.  I also think it does not permit you to, say, download a copy of something from the internet although I doubt anyone would press the issue in court.

 

You are correct: you are _allowed_ a back up copy, but that backup copy has to be legally-acquired as well.  What this ruling did do, though, was declare it perfextly legal to make your own back-up.

 

Specifically, I am saying that it does not say that if you bought a cooy you can download a bootleg copy as a "back up."    That being said, however, I dont know if such an instance has been challenged.  Further, I cant tell you how a judge would rule if you opted to do so.  Ultimately, I suppose it would be up to the cooyright holder to prove you sis not already have a legally-acquired copy and /or prove that you did or intended to distribute the bootleg to others.

 

I wobt call it a gray area, as there are clearly-defined legitmate back-up copies.  I will say that a lot is going to xome down to precedent and thw whim of the judge, shoukd you decide to put yourself in a position to test it.  (I wouldn't, at least not when it is so easy and perfectly legal to make one of your own, but that's me,)

 

 

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On 5/25/2021 at 9:56 AM, zslane said:

I suspect that the results of these various studies are reflections of the fact that most of us grew up reading hardcopy texts. It should come as no surprise that our brains became optimized for extracting and retaining information from that format. However, current (and future) generations who spend most of their time consuming information from a screen will most likely have brains optimized for that, rather than for hardcopy. It's like how I can type fastest, using all my fingers, on a full-size mechanical keyboard, and not very well at all just using my thumbs on the tiny virtual keyboard of my smartphone, whereas for kids today it's the other way around.

 

Many of these studies, which are numerous enough to be reaching the meta-analysis stage, were done on children who are in school today. So, not just us "old fogeys" who grew up reading hard-copies. The issue isn't cultural habits. Its how our brains, which are wired to work with all five senses in a a three-dimensional space, are wired. 

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