Is there a reason why not to take Multiform if you have a secret ID?

[Megastranger]

I am starting a 6th ed campaign and one of my players is making a Iceman type character.  He want to be a normal person out of hero ID then have a ice form with powers.  He asked if multiform would be the best route. I agreed and all was good. Once the other players discovered that you pretty can pretty much get double the Power Points using multiform, everyone wanted it. For example they want Clark Kent to have all high skills and perks and have Superman have all powers and just everyman skills. Min/Max  To me it does not seem like it is how the power was intended to be used.   Advice or thoughts?

[dmjalund]

Obvious answer is if someone discovers your secret Id, they can attack you when you're vulnerable 

[Spence]

Secret ID assumes the PC doesn't just have a mask, but has expended resources to actively hide or obscure any possible connection between their normal self and their powered up self.  

 

Not having Secret ID doesn't just open you up to attacks by enemies, but paparazzi, fans, critics, lawyers and anyone else that feels the need to camp on your lawn once they notice you.  An active superhero runs the risk of gaining Public Identity if they are not careful.  

[Duke Bushido]

I am not entirely clear as to what you're asking.

 

If you are asking about the Disadvantage / complication "secret identity," then it's irrelevant: taking this Disadvantage means that you have difficulty maintaining a Secret Identity, or that your dual-life is routinely problematic.  Not taking this Disadvantage, as Spence mentioned,  does not mean that you don't have a Bruce Wayne / Batman dual life going on; it simply means that it's just not a problem:  being Super never interferes with being non-super, and no one really has a clue nor are they likely to get a clue as to just who you are with or without the mask.

 

If you are asking about how to control the potential power gamer that Multiform can unlock, consider instead disallowing Multiform and instead using Only in Hero(ic) Identity.  There is nothing about this Power Limitation that prevents the character from looking different in his Hero Identity, and it doesn't really pile on the...  well, I hate to say "freebies," but that's effectively what it is-- that Multiform offers.

 

So....   similar / same feel; tighter control over power levels.   That's the core difference between the options.

 

 

But again: I really am not certain what you're asking, so if I missed completely, forgive me.

 

[HeroGM]

To me there are three things:

 

Secret ID [Superman, Spider-Man] - You go to great lengths to keep your IDs separate. It may be to protect yourself or a loved one. 

 

Public ID [MCU Cap. America, Wonder Woman] - Who doesn't know who you are? You're worst then a Kardashian.

 

Both of those are worth points for obvious reasons. They require some type of work on the characters part.

 

The third to me is you have neither. Just like Amanda Bearded it's an open secret. You don't toss it out in public, you don't keep it secret 100%. Hawkeye (comics), Wonder Girl (Donna Troy) to me are decent examples. 

[Ockham's Spoon]

I think "Only in Hero ID" makes more sense for your Iceman example.  The character doesn't fundamentally change, he just turns his powers on.  In my mind, Multiform is for characters who have truly dramatic transformations that really requires a separate write-up, like Beast Boy of the Teen Titans.  Each animal form is so fundamentally different that the abilities are better represented by a different character sheet instead of readjusting everything for each form. 

 

Another possible Multiform situation, which is closer to your example, is Bruce Banner becoming the Hulk.  But here they are really more like two separate characters that happen to share the same body, with different personalities and different sets of skills/abilities.

 

As a guideline, I would say Multiform is reasonable to use if the different forms will have significantly different Characteristics (STR, INT, etc.) and Skill sets.  Otherwise, I would rule that the player should use something like Only in Hero ID.  Which, I should note, can still be a significant point savings (at the penalty of being vulnerable out of Hero ID) but more closely matches the character conception than Multiform.

[Duke Bushido]

11 hours ago, HeroGM said:

To me there are three things:

 

Secret ID [Superman, Spider-Man] - You go to great lengths to keep your IDs separate. It may be to protect yourself or a loved one. 

 

Public ID [MCU Cap. America, Wonder Woman] - Who doesn't know who you are? You're worst then a Kardashian.

 

Both of those are worth points for obvious reasons. They require some type of work on the characters part.

 

The third to me is you have neither. Just like Amanda Bearded it's an open secret. You don't toss it out in public, you don't keep it secret 100%. Hawkeye (comics), Wonder Girl (Donna Troy) to me are decent examples. 

 

 

You are not wrong.

 

What I was pointing out was the tendency to confuse any of these three things with the disadvantageousness of having them.  Simply because I have a secret Identity does not mean that I have the Secret ID Disadvantage.  If things just always happen to work out so that I am not needed in one persona when I am needed in another, and no one ever stops to think "Hmmm....  Victor Cabrone looks an _awful lot_ like Captain Not Victor Cabrone.....  Then I do not have a Secret Identity disadvantage.

 

It's that part of "both of these are worth points for obvious reasons"--  they aren't.   They are worth points for the reasons listed in the description, and logical expansions from there.   When you take the points for that disadvantage, you are saying "I have these problems."  When you don't take that disadvantage, you saying "I don't have these problems;" you are _not_ saying "I don't have a secret identity."

 

 

It's like any other part of the game:  

If I buy flight, I can opt to have that flight as OAF: Jet boots.   In doing so, I am saying that I have a very specific set of problems related to my Flight.   If I buy Flight-- no OAF, no OAID/ OHID, no custom limitations-- just Flight-- then I do _not_ have any problems related the use of the flight.  If I don't accept points for accepting a problem, then I don't have that problem.

 

If I buy Extra Limbs: two more arms, I expect to be able to hold four tennis rackets.  I _don't_ expect to be able to play tennis, but I expect to be able to hold a racket in each hand (or, for the pedants among us, one tied to each arm, since 'uh-oh!  You didn't say "_hands_!" ).   If I take the Disadvantage "missing arm," then I expect to be able to hold _one_ tennis racket (unless I'm playing with pedants, in which case "I didn't say _hand_!")

 

If I do _not_ take Extra Limbs and I do _not_ take Missing arm, yet the GM only allows me to hold one tennis racket, ever, there is a fundamental misunderstanding of how points-build works:

 

Much like the cringe-inducing repetition of "you get what you pay for," the lesser-considered Disadvantages corollary exists:  "you only endure what you agreed to get paid for enduring."

 

If I chose not to endure the problems related to it, I don't take the Disadvantage.  That doesn't mean I don't have the condition.

 

 

I can buy Flight, and I can have rocket boots, but I am _never_ compelled to have OAF.  My rocket boots are always with me, and cannot be taken away.  Why?  Because I did not accept the points for the potential problems that I can _choose_ to accept and endure.

 

I can have a secret identity that never happens to cause me a problem.  Why?  Because I didn't accept the points for the _Disadvantage_.  I have a secret identity; I do not have the potential problems associated with one.

 

 

One can build ten thousand variations of why this is valid-- my personal favorite was offered way back on the Red October boards:  Captain Homeless  (You can see where that's going).

 

 

 

It boils down to this:  It is neither just nor sensible to accept that a character absolutely cannot have any ability for which he did not pay, but absolutely must endure disadvantages for which-- for lack of a better term, the universe did not pay him.   

 

There are obvious exceptions:  campaign ground rules may include "As your GM, know that above all else, I love the soap-opera problems that arise from a DNPC finding a domino mask hanging from your breast pocket, and your unbridled angst as you stand helplessly in your cubicle, watching out the window while Dr. Bad Guy smashes the structural supports of the building across the street, and therefore am enforcing that all characters accept one of the ID-related disadvantages."   That's your prerogative, after all.  You can make any mandatory condition you want for your campaign.

 

But doing so doesn't make compulsory acceptance of any Disadvantage a part of the rules of the game.

[Megastranger]

I believe that the way I phrased the question may have caused confusion. I am speaking more so on a game mechanics level.  Lets pretend that he has a public ID and we use Shazam as an example. My players want to use Multi form to have a 400 CP true form and for 80pts have a 400 Hero form strictly for Powers and Perks.  Aka a 400CP Billy Baston and a 400 CP Shazam vs a 400CP Superman with one form who is both Superman and Clark Kent.  (I realize superman is way more than 400pts lol)

 

Thanks! 

[mallet]

Well there is no mechanical rules stopping this, but it is a potential abuse of the rules if all your players want this and it doesn't actually match their concept. Yes, it matches the concept of Shazam or the Hulk, but it doesn't match the concept of Superman or Batman or The Flash. 

So as the GM you have the right to not allow them to take it if it is abusing the system or just away to get extra points. 

 

I, personally, would handle it this way. If the campaign you are running is a 400 point normal super game, I'd say that the players only get to have one "400 pt form". It could be their normal character (like a Superman or Flash) but if they want to take multiform, then only the "superhero" form can have 400 points, the regular (non-super hero) has to be built on less points, maybe only 200 points for example. 

 

So their "non-super hero" normal character is built on 120 points + 80 points for mulitform, and then their super hero form has the full 400 points. Heck, your original player did say he wanted to be a "normal person" and then gain his ice powers when he changed, well a "Competent Normal Person" is 100 points according to the rules, so you are actually giving them an "extra" 20 points making them better then competent in their base form. 

 

Then see how many players still want to do this, and if they all still do, then maybe that can be a hook in your campaign. Somehow their multi-forms are what brings them together or are linked somehow. 

 

Otherwise tell them that since they are going to basically have 2, 400 point characters, then the badguys they are going to face are going to be based on them being very high powered super heroes, like 600 point heroes. 

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

2 hours ago, Megastranger said:

I believe that the way I phrased the question may have caused confusion. I am speaking more so on a game mechanics level.  Lets pretend that he has a public ID and we use Shazam as an example. My players want to use Multi form to have a 400 CP true form and for 80pts have a 400 Hero form strictly for Powers and Perks.  Aka a 400CP Billy Baston and a 400 CP Shazam vs a 400CP Superman with one form who is both Superman and Clark Kent.  (I realize superman is way more than 400pts lol)

 

Thanks! 

 

 

And thank _you_, Sir (presumedly); that clears things up considerably.

 

(Also thank you for the Thirteen flashback.   )

 

So, to answer your question:  Is there a reason to not take Multiform if you have Secret ID?  (rephrased to show my understanding of the question)

 

No.  There is no reason not to take it if you have a Secret Identity.

 

However, Mallet hit on some good reasons / problems.

 

I can offer some others you might want your players to think about before they decided on their final builds:

 

Did they take the actual Secret Identity Disadvantage?  If so, remind them that means that having their powers is going to complicate their "normal" lives, and that their "normal lives" will complicate their ability to be costumed heroes at will.

 

As an example: 

 

Clark Kent is _always_ Superman, even when he's Clark Kent.  So he can be kicked back, grabbing lunch at a sidewalk cafe when a gunman runs in, grabs the cashbox, and runs back out.   Well, he can't change his clothes right here and now without someone noticing (complicating his dual life), but he _does_ have his powers.  It's possible he can drop under the table and use a quick blast of heat vision to weld the gunman's sneaker to the sidewalk, causing him to fall on his face and allowing "normal" Clark Kent (or anyone else nearby) to jump on and restrain him.

 

If you have the Disadvantage Secret Identity and your laser face powers are in your alternate form, all you're going to be able to do without making trouble for yourself is watch the thief run away.

 

Do your players have Instant Change?  Some GMs will require this if you want fast access to your alternate forms (again: some GMs.  Not all of them.  I've met a range of opinions on this over the years).  If you and your charges are trapped at the bottom of an elevator shaft and Captain Cable Cutter has sent the elevator careening down up you, you don't really have time to go through that whole bit from the Incredible Hulk TV show before you and your friends win a trip to the afterlife most relevant to your lifestyles.  It doesn't seem like much, but it's something for them to think on.  (As a side note, it's also something for the GM to think on: if a character pays for Instant Change, he needs a chance for that ability to really make the difference for him.  Just such a scenario gives him a chance to shine, and his player to feel great for having bought it.)

 

What conditions may affect access to that alternate form, and how often might the secret ID "form" of the character find himself in it?

 

Those are the things to consider.  And of course, if your players are building 800 pt characters, you'll need to show them what an 800pt villain can do.  No; I didn't say straight-up murder them; I wouldn't even let them build characters and start a game just to make this point: that's cruel and wasteful.   Talk to them in detail; let them understand that getting 800 points by 'gaming' Multiform means an 800pt character, with half the abilities locked up behind the "multiform disadvantage."   Yes:  Multiform, Multipower, etc-- are all labeled as Frameworks, but at their very heart, they are an all-encompassing disadvantage for the abilities bought through that framework (which is, on an unrelated but dear-to-me note, why "no magic spells in frameworks" is such a knife-in-the-eye to me against the spirit the game).  Considering the rebate, it's a _big_ disadvantage, too.  Let them get a feel for that, and see if that's still the game they want to play.  If it is-- and it's the kind of game you're willing to run-- well, they have been warned.

 

 

[HeroGM]

8 hours ago, Ockham's Spoon said:

. In my mind, Multiform is for characters who have truly dramatic transformations that really requires a separate write-up, like Beast Boy of the Teen Titans.

 

What I find interesting is how Billy Batson/Captain Marvel is shown over the years. In some it's Only in Heroic ID. It's Billy as an adult with much the same personality. If you look back at a lot of the original stuff Cap is a whole other person, at times Billy as an adult transported back. 

 

Would give me as a GM a headache...ok...do are you doing OHID or Multiform this time???

😡😠😠😼

[Grailknight]

I've seen players start to do this but it's never been a problem for me as a GM because of one small tweak I made to RAW and because I've been tough on active points limits.

 

Make Multiform a Special Power as it was originally . That will keep it out of Multipowers and VPP's.

 

If you have a 400 point CP limit and and Active Points Cap of 60 then the main form will have 60 of it's 400 AP tied up in the Multiform. He'll be a 340 Point character with a 300 Point alternate form. You can min-max to mitigate it, but that 60 points is going to make you less effective than the PC's that have the full 400 available at all times. If your PC's want the extra versatility and are willing to trade some effectiveness for it then you should be fine.

[Megastranger]

 

58 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

If you have a 400 point CP limit and and Active Points Cap of 60 then the main form will have 60 of it's 400 AP tied up in the Multiform. He'll be a 340 Point character with a 300 Point alternate form. You can min-max to mitigate it, but that 60 points is going to make you less effective than the PC's that have the full 400 available at all times.

 

 

Thanks all for your insight to assist this 6th ed. n00b.  I think Grailknight's reply is bringing me closer to the answer that I am looking for.    My question isn't really focused on the secret ID portion of it but the game mechanics of it.   How we read Multiform was that for every 1 CP you get 5CP towards another separate form (on a different character sheet with different stats, skills and the like). So a 400 CP  true form can buy another 400 CP form for 80 CP.  From what I am reading, active points play a factor in this math. Which brings forth another question.  According to the the cost description in the book, you can have a 350 CP hero and buy a 400 CP multiform. So there's no cap? aka a 120CP Character can buy a  400CP form for 80CP.  I am so confused lol.  I can't thank you guys enough for the replies!

 

 

[dmjalund]

I always saw Multiform as a character wide multipower

[mbmcgregor]

You also have to remember all the disadvantages of having Multi-form by the rules. Does the players have a base or a vehicle ? Then every form has to pay individually to use it. Did the hero take body damage ? Then if he switches back he could be in trouble if the original form lacks the body. Transforms will lock a character into the form, unable to change until the transform wears off. Disadvantages in one form and not in the other being worth less points because they can easily switch from one form to the other. 

[Grailknight]

On 11/8/2020 at 9:24 PM, Megastranger said:

 

 

 

Thanks all for your insight to assist this 6th ed. n00b.  I think Grailknight's reply is bringing me closer to the answer that I am looking for.    My question isn't really focused on the secret ID portion of it but the game mechanics of it.   How we read Multiform was that for every 1 CP you get 5CP towards another separate form (on a different character sheet with different stats, skills and the like). So a 400 CP  true form can buy another 400 CP form for 80 CP.  From what I am reading, active points play a factor in this math. Which brings forth another question.  According to the the cost description in the book, you can have a 350 CP hero and buy a 400 CP multiform. So there's no cap? aka a 120CP Character can buy a  400CP form for 80CP.  I am so confused lol.  I can't thank you guys enough for the replies!

 

 

 

Caps were removed in 5th Edition(along with minimums) in Superheroic campaigns with the understanding that they would be set by the GM on a case by case basis.

 

Unfortunately much of the benefit of 5th and 6th are hidden by the lack of new GM advice examples compared to power build examples. 

[massey]

Multiform is easy to abuse.  If the GM lets players get away with it, it's really easy to have a 350 or 400 pt "Billy Batson" as your main character, dump all your points into Multiform, then at the beginning of every game session you say "Shazam!" and fly around as an 1800 point monstrosity.  There is nothing in the rules to prevent this.  It's just up to the GM to say no.  Just because something is book legal doesn't mean you have to allow it.

 

In 4th edition, the main character was normally the one built on the most points.  As I recall, you could exceed the cost of the main character, but everything past the main character's point total cost 1 for 1 (you didn't get the 5 for 1 cost break).  So to become a 250 point character (which was the standard then), you'd pay 50 points for your Mutliform.  But to become a 275 point character, you'd pay 75 points for it.  They moved away from this in 5th edition.  But that requires the GM to keep a closer eye on the power.

 

[Megastranger]

Thanks all for the replies!  Since there is no such thing as a rule of X in 6th ed, I am going to cap Multiform pts to be no higher than the true form.   I let one player have it and it made sense.  The other guy buffed the heck out his "other form" and only used a few of his true form.  I truly felt that it was a min/max scenario.  His abuse was becoming contagious. Also, I am only going to allow one person to have that power at a time.

[LoneWolf]

One thing to keep in mind with a multiform is that each character is completely separate.  Anything the players wants to use in both forms has to be purchased by both forms.   That by the way goes for skills as well as powers.  To me if a character has a skill in one form and shift to a form that does not also have that skill they don’t get the benefit of that skill.  So if the non-combat form has skills like deduction and knowledge skills to figure out the villains plan they should not get the benefit of those skills once they shift.  

 

When I run a champions game I may require the character to purchase certain skills in both forms.  If both forms are basically the same mind I require them to purchase strictly mental skills in both forms.  For example let’s say you are creating a character like ironman where one form has power armor and the other form is normal.  Both forms should have the scientific skills and knowledge’s.  the Ironman form could lack some skills that the Tony Stark form has if the armor prevents him from using them.  For example armor is bulky enough that it causes problems with fine manipulation I might allow the armor form to skip the electronics and lock picking skills of the unarmored form.  

 

The main thing is to make sure that the players only use what they pay for.   Another way to keep things in check is to not allow either form to go over the campaign limits.  The only difference between the main form and secondary is who pays for the multiform.  In the previous editions of the game the cost of the multiform was always paid by the most expensive.  6th edition changed that, now the cost of multiform can be paid by either form.  
 

[Spence]

@LoneWolf

 

Excellent point and one that is sometimes overlooked.

 

[BoloOfEarth]

On 11/12/2020 at 11:04 PM, LoneWolf said:

One thing to keep in mind with a multiform is that each character is completely separate.  Anything the players wants to use in both forms has to be purchased by both forms.   That by the way goes for skills as well as powers.  To me if a character has a skill in one form and shift to a form that does not also have that skill they don’t get the benefit of that skill.  So if the non-combat form has skills like deduction and knowledge skills to figure out the villains plan they should not get the benefit of those skills once they shift.  

 

When I run a champions game I may require the character to purchase certain skills in both forms.  If both forms are basically the same mind I require them to purchase strictly mental skills in both forms.  For example let’s say you are creating a character like ironman where one form has power armor and the other form is normal.  Both forms should have the scientific skills and knowledge’s.  the Ironman form could lack some skills that the Tony Stark form has if the armor prevents him from using them.  For example armor is bulky enough that it causes problems with fine manipulation I might allow the armor form to skip the electronics and lock picking skills of the unarmored form.  

 

The main thing is to make sure that the players only use what they pay for.   Another way to keep things in check is to not allow either form to go over the campaign limits.  The only difference between the main form and secondary is who pays for the multiform.  In the previous editions of the game the cost of the multiform was always paid by the most expensive.  6th edition changed that, now the cost of multiform can be paid by either form.  
 

 

Depending on public ID vs. secret ID, this may also apply to wealth, contacts, favors, and other perks, and possibly Talents as well.

[unclevlad]

8 hours ago, BoloOfEarth said:

 

Depending on public ID vs. secret ID, this may also apply to wealth, contacts, favors, and other perks, and possibly Talents as well.

IIRC it's suggested each form has to buy the wealth.  The benefit tends to be applied independent of form too much of the time.  The others may, or may not, be required...but the basis doesn't feel like Secret vs. Public per se.  Let's assume we've got effectively a normal form and a combat form...Donald Blake and Thor.  If Donald Blake has contacts that wouldn't come into play at crunch time, when he's Thor...but Thor reaps the benefit too...then they need to be paid for in both forms.

[massey]

I'm not entirely sold on some of that.

 

Suppose you build Clark Kent separately from Superman.  While theoretically Clark can use all of Superman's stats and abilities in his normal clothes, in practice the two characters operate differently.  As long as you make Clark reasonably super-strong and bulletproof (say 35 Str, 20 PD resistant), that'll be sufficient for anything Clark is likely to do as Clark.  You can then spend the rest of your points on fun genre tricks like superspeed typing, as well as his journalistic skills and contacts.

 

Superman is again, the same guy as Clark, just wearing different clothing.  There's nothing stopping Superman from conducting an interview or calling on Clark's contacts to get the scoop.  Except we know he doesn't do that.  There are a lot of skills he technically knows how to use, but he just doesn't when he's being Superman.  This is particularly true when Supes is being the "Big Blue Boyscout" and seems to fall for every trick in the book.  Goofy, gullible Superman never recognizes the enemy's trap until it goes off in his face.  And yet Clark is a brilliant investigative reporter who knows bullcrap when he hears it.  I don't think it's unreasonable to give Clark a high Deduction skill roll, and to leave it off Superman's character sheet entirely.  Often there's a difference in mindset between the two characters.

 

[Spence]

1 hour ago, massey said:

I'm not entirely sold on some of that.

 

Suppose you build Clark Kent separately from Superman.  While theoretically Clark can use all of Superman's stats and abilities in his normal clothes, in practice the two characters operate differently.  As long as you make Clark reasonably super-strong and bulletproof (say 35 Str, 20 PD resistant), that'll be sufficient for anything Clark is likely to do as Clark.  You can then spend the rest of your points on fun genre tricks like superspeed typing, as well as his journalistic skills and contacts.

 

Superman is again, the same guy as Clark, just wearing different clothing.  There's nothing stopping Superman from conducting an interview or calling on Clark's contacts to get the scoop.  Except we know he doesn't do that.  There are a lot of skills he technically knows how to use, but he just doesn't when he's being Superman.  This is particularly true when Supes is being the "Big Blue Boyscout" and seems to fall for every trick in the book.  Goofy, gullible Superman never recognizes the enemy's trap until it goes off in his face.  And yet Clark is a brilliant investigative reporter who knows bullcrap when he hears it.  I don't think it's unreasonable to give Clark a high Deduction skill roll, and to leave it off Superman's character sheet entirely.  Often there's a difference in mindset between the two characters.

 

 

But that is not really a multiform example because all you would be doing is having two identical character sheets except naming one Clark and one Superman.  Superman was always a single form play acting that they were a weak normal guy.  Multiform is there to allow a person to build different forms with completely different abilities. Superman is just a powerful being that conceals their abilities via a costume and low level disguise which doesn't work because Sup's is a great actor, but because people simply don't believe a milksop could be anything more.

 

A better example is Banner/Hulk.  Banner may be intelligent and clear thinking, but Hulk isn't.  He has the mental development of a small child with hugely overdeveloped physical abilities.  If you want Banner's intellect to remain when he Hulk's out, you'd have to buy the skills and mental stats on each character sheet.  I doubt a cashier would let Hulk make a withdrawal from Banners account.

 

Every time I've used multiform I usually prefer for my PC to retain all his knowledge, skills and memories.  So I usually copy his mental stats, skills and other resources onto each forms character sheet.  Then I bought each forms unique abilities. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LoneWolf]

Multiform gives you two or more completely separate forms.  Anything not paid for by a form cannot be used by that form.  That includes skill, contact, perks or anything else.  This is not a matter of one of the forms choosing not to use something they literally cannot use what they have not paid for.  This is not a matter of a character choosing not to use a skill, they cannot use it period.  

 

If one of my players tried buying the skills only in one form then he would forget what those skills gave him when he switched forms.  If Clark Kent has all the investigative skills and they are not on the Superman form her forgets what he figured out when he changes to Superman.  So when Clark figures out where Lex Luther is and turns into Superman, Superman does not know where Lex is and is going to stand around confused.

 

As GM I reserve the right to Veto anything think is inappropriate and a Superman multiform is going to get a big fat NO.  Shazam type character maybe, but again anything that carries over has to be purchased by both forms.