Mental Invis

[Hugh Neilson]

2 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Okay,Hugh:

 

I am sure you picked up on it, but within your first quote you managed to capture a typo:

 

It should read "my problem is _NOT_ that someone didn't like it.  The word "not" appears to _not_ be in the original line.

 

 

Well, that's gonna skew everything else.....   I'm-a- gonna run up-thread and fix that.....

 

 

 

Popped an edit in my quote - I read in that your issue was not just "someone with a different opinion".  There is no one on these Boards who is more open to differing opinions than you are - whether you agree or not, you have always respected the other viewpoint, and you deserve no less from anyone whose opinions differ from yours.

[unclevlad]

5 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

@unclevladwhat value did you determine then? Also this power reminds me of the X-man Forgetmenot, is this the inspiration?

 

-3/4 for now.  

 

The concept...well, it's not exactly new.  Heck, in D&D there's Psionic Invis.  There's the Star Wars "these aren't the droids you're looking for" taken metaphorically.  David Eddings' Sparhawk books...Flute does this.  "They see us, but their brain doesn't pay any attention to us."  Comics would *rarely* be a source, as I've barely read them in the last 30 years.

[Duke Bushido]

Thanks, Hugh;

 

that's very kind on many fronts.

 

 

[unclevlad]

Oh, I was gonna mention.  Regen cost.

 

I agree that pricing it is tricky.  My problem is that the cost difference based on the time chart is poor.  The notion of having self-healing is principally to obviate the need to be healed;  reducing longer-term recovery time should be VERY minor.  Well, even 1 BODY per hour is typically not fast enough for "I'll be fine"...and you're at 8 points.  You've already sunk in so many points that there's little reason NOT to go faster.

 

The other issue is, there is no point in taking 2 BODY per hour, for example;  that's 16 points, whereas 1 BODY per 20 minutes is both strictly more effective and cheaper.  

 

Much of this is probably a legacy of the 5E definition, which is Healing with a package of advantages and limitations, and another instance of 6E's sometime rigidity in using (in this case) the time chart in a manner that isn't necessarily sensible.  In 5E, you're starting with a fairly expensive baseline...20 points...then applying 2 significant limitations (self only, 1 turn) which fundamentally mean that slowing it down even more makes no sense...increasing the limitation is already well past the point of diminishing returns.  The awkwardness of the 5E construction can be seen, I think, in that they mandated the full extra turn...because otherwise there'd be almost no reason not to go all the way to Extra Segment.  Extra Segment would only be 10 points, and it'd still be your SPD in BODY recovered per turn.  But Extra Turn is still 7......so you'd buy up.  Much of the problem is that you're taking such a broad power and trying to narrow it...but the math of limitations is bad for that.  

[Duke Bushido]

On 11/14/2020 at 7:12 PM, unclevlad said:

Yeah, but invisibility is a power with at least 3 separate groups:  bending light, being transparent, or simply being unnoticed.  The latter could be done with a Mind Control, but that power's structured poorly to achieve that result.    Or maybe Mental Images, but "important objects vanish if present" is a Major, so that's Ego +10.  That is another candidate, tho, if I don't like the final build doing it this way.

 

But...Invis as the basis lets you hand wave a lot mote...it basically works, you don't make rolls.  Mental Illusions has mental attack rolls.  Ehhh......  

 

Hmm.  For something like this, part of the implicit definition is that Mental Def should help.  So...something like having Mental Def allows the possessor to make an EGO roll to ignore the effect.  Every 5 points of MenD adds 1 to the target for the roll.  OH, and I *would* say this Mental Invis counts as a mental power for Mental Awareness.

 

 

Up front:  

 

I am _not_ calling you wrong; I want you especially, and everyone else who might still be following along (we're almost at page 3, when it just becomes a philosophy discussion-- and where I try to bow out, because by page 4, it's a shouting match ) to understand that you are _not_ wrong when you say :

 

3 separate groups: bending light, being transparent, or simply being unnoticed.

 

You're not wrong.

 

 

I want to raise the point, however, that the absolute ultimate in-game mechanical effect of "invisibility" (which I am sorely tempted to rename "unnoticed" ) is that no one knows you were / are still here / there.  You can stand in the corner at any board meeting and no one will know you are there.  You walk straight up to the villain and poke him directly in the Stun and he will do nothing to defend himself (the first time) because he doesn't know you're there.

 

Side effects of no one knowing you're there include no one remembering you were there and you officially have the most terrifying of all evil twins, but I'm getting ahead of myself.

 

I would like to point out that 2 of the 3 three groups to which you referred are by themselves neither Invisibility nor necessary mechanical components of it, but are in fact _special effects_ of / justifications for being invisible.  For example, should a person be able to bend light around himself in such a way that he is edited out of your visual perception, you won't notice he's there, and since you don't notice he's there, you won't remember him being there.  If you are able to become completely transparent, well then you really don't need to bend light at all: people just aren't going see you because they can look right through you.  (and of course, if you can bend light, you can dress like a flamenco dancer and still not be seen).   

 

That leaves "being unnoticed."  Well, that right there-- _that_ is the absolute heart of Invisibility.  No matter how you achieve the result, the result you are after is "no one notices me."  I put forward the idea that-- pedantry and semantics and etymology aside, _within the game mechanics_, "being unnoticeable" is the _single_ definition of Invisible.   How you achieve the state of being unnoticeable is pure SFX for your build.

 

Maybe you bend light.  Maybe you (and your clothes) become perfectly transparent.  Maybe you radiate a constant mental command "you can't see me," causing the target's mind to edit you out of the target's perception and memories of you.

 

I think, at this point, we are all agreed that this is valid (at least this time.  When I dusted off Fade a couple of lifetimes ago, it didn't go so well).

 

So we have the power: Invisibility and the SFX "constant mental command."

 

Now to the rest of the build-- what are the Modifiers-- the Advantages and Limitations?  Which ones are mandated because of the SFX? 

 

Well, the Power rules _require_ "Fringe Effect," which you may want for your character.  But here's a nifty thing that, in today's ever-more-specific rules set you'd have to discuss with your GM, you might consider:  Decide that _your_ Fringe Effect doesn't work with a PER roll, but perhaps an EGO Roll!  You could do this to simulate that those unaffected have "some quality of mind" or "some quality of will power" that doesn't allow you to fully-dominate their subconscious, and their strength of will fights and does not edit you completely, hoping that your conscious mind will pick up on the attack, etc, etc, etc.

Or you could make it an INT roll: you are so self-aware that you realize that _something_ isn't right; something is playing with your mind, and the source of it-- right there!  I swear I saw something!  No; There!   You see where that's going; I'm certain.

 

Of course, the power description also gives you the option to buy off the fringe effect completely; you are free to do that.  Wait-- you've decided that this is a mental power, and that means---

 

 

Nothing.  It doesn't mean a stinkin' thing.  It means you have decided on the special effects for your Invisibility; that's what it means.  You can leave the Fringe Effect based on a PER roll; that is the default.  Let's remember that the power is _not_ "affects light so that when the light is perceived you aren't there," and it is _not_ "the light passes right through me so that there is no image of me transmitted to the senses," and that the power is not "my chameleon abilities are so refined that every cell of my body projects an image of that which is behind me."  The power is "I am unnoticeable."  How you arrive there does _not_ change that, _NOR_ does it mandate _anything_ that you don't want to include in the build.

 

For example: You _could_ use an EGO roll to detect the Fringe Effect.  You don't have to.  You don't even have to have a Fringe.

 

You _could_ allow characters with higher EGO scores or Mental Defense to have some bonus-- some additional chance to detect you.  But never, _ever_ forget that no matter _what_ you picked for your special effect, you are _not_ mandated to choose certain modifiers, _ever_.  If you decided to take a custom Limitation: characters with EGO 15+ / EGO Defense have a +x to their PER roll to notice you, it's because that's how you _want_ the power to work.  It is _not_, and no matter how much you hear to the contrary, it is _never_ mandatory to take certain limitations because "your SFX mandates"-- that's nonsense being spouted by someone who might really believe he understands the difference between mechanics and SFX-- someone who may well have made great strides toward that very understanding, even!-- but as long as he believes that a particular SFX _mandates_ anything, he hasn't gotten there yet.  Either that, or he's reading more into the rules that was ever there.

 

It is absolutely true that your SFX will open up interesting justifications for any modifiers that you may choose, particularly if you a very specific idea of how the power works, but no SFX will _ever_-- both by the source material and by the rules themselves-- _mandate_ anything you don't want.  You bought a 6d6 Energy Blast, AoE: Radius, Fireball?  It will very much work underwater and in outer space unless _you_ decide it doesn't.  "But there's no oxygen in outer space, so it can't work ther--"

"This flame is my righteous and glorious fury.  The flames you see are merely mirrors of my incredible passion.  This fire needs no oxygen!"

 

Don't let someone tell you that "justifiable equals mandate."  That just makes it so much harder for anyone following along to learn to separate mechanics from SFX.

 

 

 

[Grailknight]

15 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

Up front:  

 

I am _not_ calling you wrong; I want you especially, and everyone else who might still be following along (we're almost at page 3, when it just becomes a philosophy discussion-- and where I try to bow out, because by page 4, it's a shouting match ) to understand that you are _not_ wrong when you say :

 

3 separate groups: bending light, being transparent, or simply being unnoticed.

 

You're not wrong.

 

 

I want to raise the point, however, that the absolute ultimate in-game mechanical effect of "invisibility" (which I am sorely tempted to rename "unnoticed" ) is that no one knows you were / are still here / there.  You can stand in the corner at any board meeting and no one will know you are there.  You walk straight up to the villain and poke him directly in the Stun and he will do nothing to defend himself (the first time) because he doesn't know you're there.

 

Side effects of no one knowing you're there include no one remembering you were there and you officially have the most terrifying of all evil twins, but I'm getting ahead of myself.

 

I would like to point out that 2 of the 3 three groups to which you referred are by themselves neither Invisibility nor necessary mechanical components of it, but are in fact _special effects_ of / justifications for being invisible.  For example, should a person be able to bend light around himself in such a way that he is edited out of your visual perception, you won't notice he's there, and since you don't notice he's there, you won't remember him being there.  If you are able to become completely transparent, well then you really don't need to bend light at all: people just aren't going see you because they can look right through you.  (and of course, if you can bend light, you can dress like a flamenco dancer and still not be seen).   

 

That leaves "being unnoticed."  Well, that right there-- _that_ is the absolute heart of Invisibility.  No matter how you achieve the result, the result you are after is "no one notices me."  I put forward the idea that-- pedantry and semantics and etymology aside, _within the game mechanics_, "being unnoticeable" is the _single_ definition of Invisible.   How you achieve the state of being unnoticeable is pure SFX for your build.

 

Maybe you bend light.  Maybe you (and your clothes) become perfectly transparent.  Maybe you radiate a constant mental command "you can't see me," causing the target's mind to edit you out of the target's perception and memories of you.

 

I think, at this point, we are all agreed that this is valid (at least this time.  When I dusted off Fade a couple of lifetimes ago, it didn't go so well).

 

So we have the power: Invisibility and the SFX "constant mental command."

 

Now to the rest of the build-- what are the Modifiers-- the Advantages and Limitations?  Which ones are mandated because of the SFX? 

 

Well, the Power rules _require_ "Fringe Effect," which you may want for your character.  But here's a nifty thing that, in today's ever-more-specific rules set you'd have to discuss with your GM, you might consider:  Decide that _your_ Fringe Effect doesn't work with a PER roll, but perhaps an EGO Roll!  You could do this to simulate that those unaffected have "some quality of mind" or "some quality of will power" that doesn't allow you to fully-dominate their subconscious, and their strength of will fights and does not edit you completely, hoping that your conscious mind will pick up on the attack, etc, etc, etc.

Or you could make it an INT roll: you are so self-aware that you realize that _something_ isn't right; something is playing with your mind, and the source of it-- right there!  I swear I saw something!  No; There!   You see where that's going; I'm certain.

 

Of course, the power description also gives you the option to buy off the fringe effect completely; you are free to do that.  Wait-- you've decided that this is a mental power, and that means---

 

 

Nothing.  It doesn't mean a stinkin' thing.  It means you have decided on the special effects for your Invisibility; that's what it means.  You can leave the Fringe Effect based on a PER roll; that is the default.  Let's remember that the power is _not_ "affects light so that when the light is perceived you aren't there," and it is _not_ "the light passes right through me so that there is no image of me transmitted to the senses," and that the power is not "my chameleon abilities are so refined that every cell of my body projects an image of that which is behind me."  The power is "I am unnoticeable."  How you arrive there does _not_ change that, _NOR_ does it mandate _anything_ that you don't want to include in the build.

 

For example: You _could_ use an EGO roll to detect the Fringe Effect.  You don't have to.  You don't even have to have a Fringe.

 

You _could_ allow characters with higher EGO scores or Mental Defense to have some bonus-- some additional chance to detect you.  But never, _ever_ forget that no matter _what_ you picked for your special effect, you are _not_ mandated to choose certain modifiers, _ever_.  If you decided to take a custom Limitation: characters with EGO 15+ / EGO Defense have a +x to their PER roll to notice you, it's because that's how you _want_ the power to work.  It is _not_, and no matter how much you hear to the contrary, it is _never_ mandatory to take certain limitations because "your SFX mandates"-- that's nonsense being spouted by someone who might really believe he understands the difference between mechanics and SFX-- someone who may well have made great strides toward that very understanding, even!-- but as long as he believes that a particular SFX _mandates_ anything, he hasn't gotten there yet.  Either that, or he's reading more into the rules that was ever there.

 

It is absolutely true that your SFX will open up interesting justifications for any modifiers that you may choose, particularly if you a very specific idea of how the power works, but no SFX will _ever_-- both by the source material and by the rules themselves-- _mandate_ anything you don't want.  You bought a 6d6 Energy Blast, AoE: Radius, Fireball?  It will very much work underwater and in outer space unless _you_ decide it doesn't.  "But there's no oxygen in outer space, so it can't work ther--"

"This flame is my righteous and glorious fury.  The flames you see are merely mirrors of my incredible passion.  This fire needs no oxygen!"

 

Don't let someone tell you that "justifiable equals mandate."  That just makes it so much harder for anyone following along to learn to separate mechanics from SFX.

 

 

 

 

Bravo! A trifle longwinded but pretty close to perfect.

 

While you can use other mechanics, using Invisibility, the specific mechanic being desired makes things much simpler.

 

Why? Because it is an absolute. If you buy off the fringe, you will be invisible to everyone who doesn't have an Enhanced Sense you didn't cover or to those you chose to allow a loophole to. You choose to have a limitation that fits your SFX and that makes the power work as you want it to.

 

Using Mind Control or Mental Illusion, can work but introduce so many points of failure. 

-The value of the command depends on the circumstances and the target. It shouldn't be harder to fool a guard at secure sight than the kid taking tickets at the cineplex but it is.

-Expense. You're gonna need a 6 DC's minimum with AOE to walk through a crowded room of people who aren't alert for intruders. Hope there's no one with a 13 EGO there like a noisy reporter or off duty cop.

- Failure. Those targets of Mental Powers get Breakout rolls. They also see you until you before they enter and after they leave your AOE(good for dramatic scenes, terrible for being undiscovered) Also you could just roll bad(fixable with standard effect but that add more to the expense)

 

Invisibility avoids all of those.

[Duke Bushido]

34 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

Bravo! A trifle longwinded

 

 

Moi?!  🤯

 

Perish the thought!