My Players Never Block

[Ninja-Bear]

Let me add though that the thrill of making multiple Blocks in a single phase is exciting!

[LoneWolf]

5 hours ago, MrAgdesh said:

Except that once simultaneous DEX characters agree to that roll-off, they are both locked in. Neither can then abort that action if they don't like the result of the dice roll. You can Abort prior to the roll, sure, but not after.

That is completely untrue.  The only time you cannot abort to a defensive action is if you have already gone.  Besides if Bob is smart he is not even going to try to go first, he is simply going to declare he is blocking. 

[MrAgdesh]

2 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

That is completely untrue.  The only time you cannot abort to a defensive action is if you have already gone.  Besides if Bob is smart he is not even going to try to go first, he is simply going to declare he is blocking. 

 

Apparently not. 5rEd pg 360, 6E2 pg 19.

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

I will just add that (and I do use Block) it isn’t fool proof. Nothing worse than trying to Block or Dodge and still get hit.

 

Yeah.  There are a few things that really annoy players in my experience, and being beaten without a realistic chance (the capture scenario), being blinded, being stunned, and trying (or especially aborting to) a defensive move and failing is all right up there at the top.  The last bit usually teaches them to never try it again.

[LoneWolf]

Blocking can speed up combat, especially in fantasy hero.  In most fantasy hero games the players defenses are kind of middle of the road.  The attacks they are facing are also not as high as in a champions game.  This means that outside a lucky shot it takes a while to take down someone.  When you block you stop the opponents attack cold. You don’t have to roll damage, and hit location or figure out how much they character takes.   

 

If you use the speed chart like my previous posts suggest you actually have a better chance of taking down your opponent.  You are doing more damage and probably have a better OCV.    Since your opponent just attacked chances are his DCV is also lower.  This may be enough for you to be able to get a called shot in without lowering your chance to hit to low.  You don’t have to go for a head shot, a chest shot is actually a good choice.  Now instead of doing a 1d6+1 KA you are doing a 2 1/2 d6.  So your attack went from doing 5 Body and 11 stun to 9 Body and 26 stun.  This is assuming a 15 STR character using a long sword and gaining +4 DC from something like a sacrifice strike. 

 

Two characters trading blows without blocking is going to take a lot longer.  While the character who does not block can also use the risky attacks it put them at a severe disadvantage.  Chances are that the player is going to die is pretty high.  Remember that the GM always has more opponent, so the odds are always in his favor.  

 

And while blocking or dodging is not an absolute defense it does greatly increase your chance of survival.  One last thing to consider is that blocking also is the best defense against the lucky guy who always seems to roll low enough to hit.  Seems like there is one player in every group that consistently manages to roll to hit no matter what your DCV is.  If this person is the GM blocking is your only defense.  Since blocking means he does not get to roll to hit his luck is negated.  
 

[Hugh Neilson]

I find that Block/Dodge rarely get used (in Hero, not just Fantasy Hero) if the combatants are roughly equal, or against weaker opponents.  When facing one or two very powerful opponents, however, defensive actions come into their own.  Four against one?  As our phases come up, we delay.  When the enemy picks a target, that target Blocks or Dodges and the other three attack.  If the defensive move succeeds, no one takes damage.  Sometimes it fails, so that character, if badly damaged, withdraws to take a Recovery or two while the other three continue the tactic.

[Ninja-Bear]

Well we just played a Fantasy game last night. I ran the villains so the cannon fodder I didn’t use Block to speed up play. The Boss and his personal guards I did when appropriate. The coolest use of Block though was the Fighter used his shield to Block an arrow from hitting the mage. Everyone was talking about THAT move!

Also I rolled 3 sixes when trying to Block too. That resulted in a bonus to hit.

[Old Man]

Late to the thread as usual...

 

Block is an almost overpowered maneuver.  OP's players are fools. 

 

Use Block when:

• Your SPD is lower than your opponent's.
• Your OCV is significantly higher than your DCV, especially if you're using levels and you don't want to (or can't) switch them.
• You're fighting one opponent.
• You have a large shield to block with.
• You have buddies who can kill your opponent for you.

Use Dodge when:

• You have a significant DEX advantage.
• You're outnumbered.
• You're fighting ranged opponents.
• You have buddies who can kill your opponent for you.

 

The single most important tactic for both Block and Dodge is when the party is wolfpacking one or two large opponents.  To oversimplify, everyone reserves and waits to see who the bad guys attack, whoever gets attacked Blocks or Dodges, and whoever's left throws a haymaker.  This effectively raises everyone's DCV by 3 (if dodging).

 

The other thing to remember is, if the opponent's OCV is known, how much of a statistical difference a Block or Dodge would make.  Dropping an opponent's to-hit from 17- to 14- reduces the likelihood of a hit by around 10%.  Dropping the to-hit from 12- to 9- reduces the likelihood of a hit by 35%.

 

Blocking became so prevalent in our campaign that we had to ban 2pt. OCV levels, impose off-hand penalties to blocking with shields, and keep track of shield damage.  And wolfpacking is still a serious problem for large opponents, who eventually had to up their game with Sweep maneuvers.

 

 

[Alibear]

I think the relationship with OCV to block and dcv to dodge is the biggest factor for me. If you have a dude with a higher  DCV than ocv then he will probably dodge. If his OCV is higher, cos he has a shield, skill levels are in ocv, he is at a lower dcv for whatever reason then he will block. The situation and ocv dcv spread will dictate actions in my experience.

 

[Ninja-Bear]

On 12/3/2020 at 2:25 AM, Old Man said:

Late to the thread as usual...

 

Block is an almost overpowered maneuver.  OP's players are fools. 

 

Use Block when:

• Your SPD is lower than your opponent's.
• Your OCV is significantly higher than your DCV, especially if you're using levels and you don't want to (or can't) switch them.
• You're fighting one opponent.
• You have a large shield to block with.
• You have buddies who can kill your opponent for you.

Use Dodge when:

• You have a significant DEX advantage.
• You're outnumbered.
• You're fighting ranged opponents.
• You have buddies who can kill your opponent for you.

 

The single most important tactic for both Block and Dodge is when the party is wolfpacking one or two large opponents.  To oversimplify, everyone reserves and waits to see who the bad guys attack, whoever gets attacked Blocks or Dodges, and whoever's left throws a haymaker.  This effectively raises everyone's DCV by 3 (if dodging).

 

The other thing to remember is, if the opponent's OCV is known, how much of a statistical difference a Block or Dodge would make.  Dropping an opponent's to-hit from 17- to 14- reduces the likelihood of a hit by around 10%.  Dropping the to-hit from 12- to 9- reduces the likelihood of a hit by 35%.

 

Blocking became so prevalent in our campaign that we had to ban 2pt. OCV levels, impose off-hand penalties to blocking with shields, and keep track of shield damage.  And wolfpacking is still a serious problem for large opponents, who eventually had to up their game with Sweep maneuvers.

 

 

That’s great. However do the characters know how to do this? If you have a competent warrior then by all means. But what about characters that aren’t competent Warriors like the classical magic user? Because if they are fighting like that then thats Player OOC knowledge not character knowledge.

[Christopher R Taylor]

The problem is if you block you don't attack that phase or held phase, and if you fail then all you did was get hit and accomplished zero.  This is not something players like, and it only takes the once to teach them to just attack.

[Ninja-Bear]

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

The problem is if you block you don't attack that phase or held phase, and if you fail then all you did was get hit and accomplished zero.  This is not something players like, and it only takes the once to teach them to just attack.

My very first Champions fight I did this. Shadow (a ninja) did this all fight against Arc. It made for a long fight.

[LoneWolf]

The big advantage of aborting to defensive maneuvers is the ability to adjust your skill levels. If the character has no martial arts and no applicable skill levels it does not make that much of a difference.  .  

 

Like anything in game the character needs to be built for it or it does not work well.  If I have a mage character with low combat values and some skill levels with spells blocking is not going to do anything.  Even dodging is probably not going to be that effective.  This type of character has one strategy, keep away from people who can hurt him.  Trying to convince the player to block is not a good idea.  On the other hand a character with a good martial art and/or a decent number of applicable skill levels can be incredibly effective by switching from offensive to defensive as appropriate.  

 

I think blocking is more effective in a Fantasy Hero game then a champion’s game for a one important reasons.  Most Fantasy Hero campaign use some form of stat maximum.  This means if the character wants to be able to raise his combat values he needs other ways besides straight OCV and DCVV.  This is usually done with skill levels and/or martial arts.  

 

For all those who are worried about missing out by not attacking every phase remember uncurious and dead characters don’t get to attack.  Keep in mind that the odd are always in the GM’s favor for one reason.  For the most part each player has only one character, the GM has an infinite number of characters.   If you defeat the GM villain of the day he simply makes another. If you kill a minion the GM probably does not even care.  On the other hand if he defeats you it usually means you face some sort of consequence.  Often times it may have a long term detrimental effect on your character.  In a Fantasy Hero game you may lose items or even have to create a new character.  
 

[Old Man]

On 12/4/2020 at 5:22 AM, Ninja-Bear said:

That’s great. However do the characters know how to do this? If you have a competent warrior then by all means. But what about characters that aren’t competent Warriors like the classical magic user? Because if they are fighting like that then thats Player OOC knowledge not character knowledge.

 

This is outside the scope of the discussion.  That said, it doesn't take a veteran warrior to freak out and dodge when someone swings a sword at him.

[massey]

On 12/4/2020 at 9:22 AM, Ninja-Bear said:

That’s great. However do the characters know how to do this? If you have a competent warrior then by all means. But what about characters that aren’t competent Warriors like the classical magic user? Because if they are fighting like that then thats Player OOC knowledge not character knowledge.

 

I have started taking martial art classes to get into better shape.  I am not very good at it yet.  We did a sparring session, and a guy who is much better than me started throwing punches and kicks (light contact, wearing pads).  I realized very very quickly that my OCV isn't very good -- blocking him was not going to work.  It was a much better plan to abort to dodge (i.e., ducking and moving and trying to get out of the way).  I also sparred a guy who wasn't very good either, and I had a much easier time blocking his attacks and responding.

 

The wizard doesn't really have to know how well trained someone is.  He just has to be able to tell if they are better than he is or not.  That's not really very hard, honestly.

[archer]

On 12/4/2020 at 9:22 AM, Ninja-Bear said:

That’s great. However do the characters know how to do this? If you have a competent warrior then by all means. But what about characters that aren’t competent Warriors like the classical magic user? Because if they are fighting like that then thats Player OOC knowledge not character knowledge.

 

Waiting to see what the other guy is going to do is pretty basic knowledge. You see that all the time in schoolyard fights.

 

And dodging if you see he's going to attack you is also pretty instinctive.

 

Other than that, how many fights does it take with the lead fighter yelling at the mage for doing something stupid does it take for the mage to quit showboating on his own and start following orders? The mage is supposed to be the intelligent one, after all.  

[LoneWolf]

Just because you are playing a mage does not mean you have no training in combat.  Does your mage have more than a 3 OCV, 3 DCV and 2 SPD?  If not he has probably had some sort of combat training.  Both block and dodge are standard maneuvers that anyone can perform.  All characters are able to use unarmed combat with no penalties, so there is no reason a mage cannot do the same.

 

Mages are also the equivalent of nerds in a fantasy setting.  It is not unreasonable to think that they were not picked on and bullied when they were younger.  They may have actually been in more fights when they were younger than other types of characters.  Sure they probably got beat up, but they obviously survived and probably being intelligent probably picked up some defensive strategies. 

 

Some mages may even have formal training in combat.  The last game I played a mage in the character had to use a staff for all his spells.  I gave him a very basic staff based martial art with 3 maneuvers, a martial block, a martial strike and a take down.  During one of the first fights I got a lucky shot on a knight we were fighting and ended up taking him down in one shot.  I was only doing 6d6 normal damage with the staff, but got a critical hit to the head.  That kind of annoyed the other player, because they could not hurt him. 

 

Last thing to consider is once the campaign starts all characters are going to be in combat during the game.  So unless the game has only just started the mage is been in just as many combats as the warrior. 

[pawsplay]

On 12/4/2020 at 8:22 AM, Ninja-Bear said:

That’s great. However do the characters know how to do this? If you have a competent warrior then by all means. But what about characters that aren’t competent Warriors like the classical magic user? Because if they are fighting like that then thats Player OOC knowledge not character knowledge.

 

You mean classical magic users like Gandalf, who used a sword? The Grey Mouser, who was a thief and fencer? Or maybe Elric, who used a sword? Or Lythande, who used a sword? Or Richard Cypher, who used a sword?  Or maybe more like the evil magician in the Golden Voyage of Sinband, who also used a sword?

 

If a magician gets involved in combat, they are a "competent warrior," even if they aren't a knight.

[Panpiper]

On 11/21/2020 at 8:20 PM, Gandalf970 said:

Is it realistic in a Fantasy Hero game to buy the Power: Characteristic and buy Speed with the limitation "Only usable with Defensive Maneuvers".  What kind of limitation would that be 1/4, 1/2.  Is that too powerful, but would encourage Blocks and Dodges?

 

My opinion is that it is a +1 limitation. But to discourage people from stacking extra limitations onto it to drive the cost so low as to make it's acquisition trivial, instead of allowing it to be bought with limitations, I would create a  5 point 'talent' that would allow one free abort action per turn. Your call if they can buy more than one.

[Ninja-Bear]

@archer, @LoneWolf, @pawsplay, you three missed my point. You got hung up on the details of my question especially the magic user term-ahem paws play - magic user is a D&D reference. 

On 12/5/2020 at 5:05 PM, massey said:

 

I have started taking martial art classes to get into better shape.  I am not very good at it yet.  We did a sparring session, and a guy who is much better than me started throwing punches and kicks (light contact, wearing pads).  I realized very very quickly that my OCV isn't very good -- blocking him was not going to work.  It was a much better plan to abort to dodge (i.e., ducking and moving and trying to get out of the way).  I also sparred a guy who wasn't very good either, and I had a much easier time blocking his attacks and responding.

 

The wizard doesn't really have to know how well trained someone is.  He just has to be able to tell if they are better than he is or not.  That's not really very hard, honestly.

Actually depends how you’re blocking realty and what blocks. That’s a WHOLE other argument which I’ll leave alone.  Still knowing your opponent is better than you doesn’t automatically make be able to better defend against the person. I’ve sparred (and enjoyed it) and still got hit even though I saw coming. (I’m not the most dexterous). Funny story though once I zigged instead of zagged and caught and Axe Kick to the neck. 

My point is that if the player is using player knowledge of the game that the character shouldn’t have access to them it’s not really roleplaying the character. Substitute fighting for player knowing the key mystery because he played the module before. Or how about playing a fearless character against undead when the premise, like the Walking Dead, everyone in the beginning were at least fearful of them. Yeah Rick fought them but that was necessity at first. They still scared him.

[LoneWolf]

Even someone who has never been in a fight can try and block or dodge.  This is not using player knowledge this is almost instinctive.  When someone is trying to hurt you the first instinct most people have it try to avoid being hurt.   Even a small child knows enough to try and get away from the bully who is trying to beat him up.  Ever been picked on by someone tougher than you?  What is the first thing you try and do?  Get away from him (half move and dodge).  If you are cornered and he is punching your face what do you do?  Try and protect your head by putting your arms in front of your face (block).  If elementary school student can do it, surly an adult in a dangerous world can.  

 

To me it seems that it is more likely that a person not trained in combat would attempt to block or dodge.  They are not used to combat so are more likely to follow their instincts to avoid being hit.  Deliberately standing your ground so you can get in a hit seems to be more likely the move of someone with combat training than a noncombatant.  That would mean the character who is untrained in combat who does not cancel to a defensive action is the one that is more likely using player knowledge than the one who fights more defensively.   If the supposedly noncombat character is a mage and does not block or dodge so they can get their spell off that is worse use of player knowledge.   
 

[dmjalund]

in the being attacked by a bully situation, you have no intention of hitting back, so if dodging is not an option, block makes sense.

[pawsplay]

Dodge and Block are basic combat options. We're not talking about Martial Maneuvers. I don't know why you think a magic-user shouldn't have access to Dodge unless they have some kind of Physical Limitation.

[Scott Ruggels]

On 12/6/2020 at 12:00 PM, pawsplay said:

 

You mean classical magic users like Gandalf, who used a sword? The Grey Mouser, who was a thief and fencer? Or maybe Elric, who used a sword? Or Lythande, who used a sword? Or Richard Cypher, who used a sword?  Or maybe more like the evil magician in the Golden Voyage of Sinband, who also used a sword?

 

If a magician gets involved in combat, they are a "competent warrior," even if they aren't a knight.

 Yeah, the whole "Magic User doesn't use a sword" trope as strictly D&D. I mean Geralt of Rivia uses a sword quite well.

[HeroGM]

Merlin, or even Corwin and Brand, from the Amber Chronicles.