Speedster Minimums

[Ninja-Bear]

Hello all,

 

One archetype that I haven’t ever played is the Speedster. I’m planning on building a basic Speedster.  So I’m wondering what do you Herophiles consider the bare minimum in skill and Powers for a Speedster. Is a high running enough? I do know that I want the character to be able to do Move bus and Move Thrus. So what should I be aware of? I’ve seen +PD only for Move bys/thrus. But would Res Protection be better?

 

 

[Ockham's Spoon]

There are so many ways to build a speedster, it really depends on the sfx and how you envision the speedster working.  Marvel's Quicksilver and Juggernaut both use high velocity abilities in combat, but in very different ways.

 

Extra PD for Move-bys/thrus is functionally useful (although as a GM I would demand some justification for it).  Resistant PD would only be necessary if you are using a Killing Attack.  So if your speedster is using a lance to skewer opponents, you have a Killing Attack, and logically they won't take as much damage from the Move Thru since they aren't on the pointy end of the lance, so you can justify extra Resistant PD. 

 

You might also consider a martial arts package that has attacks that use Full Move and adds velocity damage like Passing Strike or Passing Throw, but doesn't have the draw-back of the attacker taking damage.

[Ninja-Bear]

@Ockham's Spoon, oh I realize that there is many ways to build a Speedster. That is why I’m trying to narrow it down to the essential elements of Speedster.

[Asperion]

While the typical method is with high SPD, I have seen speedsters  with SPD of 3-4 who use speed tricks to simulate their high speed. Such tricks might be a flurry of blows, generating images so that others target false space, kinetic redirection, super dodging, among many other abilities. Basically let your skills and powers determine what you are, not the SPD. Conversely I have even seen slow, lumbering hulks that have a SPD that can rival most speeders!

[unclevlad]

For me, yeah, the classic speedster in combat is closest to a martial artist...not necessarily a wide variety of fancy moves, but a lot of the damage is tied into the move.  (Passing Strike doesn't do damage to the speedster...but it's also 5 points.  Anyone can do a move-by for free.)

 

Other tricks:  

couple dice HA, simply defined as your fists move so fast...or define these as martial arts DCs

autofire

more dice HA, defined as "I jackhammer several blows into the same spot" which might well take a maneuver limitation

lots and lots and lots of both combat move and non-combat move.  You might need to get a little tricky:

 

Running I -- running 12m

Running II -- running 38m, half end (affects base characteristic)

Naked Advantage:  Megascale, 1m = 1 km, applied to Running I.  

 

The reason for high SPD is that speedsters are another form of glass cannon...they usually can't take much punishment at all.  But they're in the combat zone.  Speedsters are perhaps the most impacted by the discrete-time, stepped approach, as well as the need to make things concrete.  Quicksilver and Flash are still moving at blur-level speeds...non-combat, by Hero...even in combat.  But you get hosed by that in Hero.  So what you really don't want is to be caught out with no action remaining, as much as you can...so you want a higher SPD.  

 

Oh...if you're going to buy this much combat velo, you need to use Multiple Attack quite a bit to get the most out of this.  And that's one of the trademarks, too...the speedster clears out swaths of minions.  So Rapid Attack, and Defensive Attack from APG if you can.

 

If you go with better defenses, then another form might be called the speed burst type.  Good but not extreme combat and non-combat movement;  the jackhammer strike's bigger;  the passing strike less so (lower velocity).  It doesn't imply crossing a continent in a few minutes either, at least to me.

 

[Ockham's Spoon]

unclevlad is right about the glass cannon aspect of speedsters; high DCV is key.  You might also pick up some Combat Luck ("Just Nicked Me!").

 

While you can have an average SPD speedster and simulate everything with powers, I personally like having the high SPD; it offers a lot more flexibility in combat.  But if you are playing in a game with a cap on max SPD, then powers to represent SPD tricks are the way to go.

[Ninja-Bear]

Let’s talk about Speed Cap. Now I’m the GM so having a cap per se isn’t an obstacle. So those whom are suggesting high Speed, are you suggesting that they should be at the top of the cap OR are they allowed to break the cap.  Say in a game with 4-6 Speed, should they be 6 or 7? 
 

And back to essentials. Does a Speedster need to be able to run up walls and or across water to qualify as a Speedster? That’s the thing I’m trying to nail down. Yes Speedsters are and should be varied but what is essential to them (in Hero terms)?

[Tom Cowan]

well your speedster could fly, yes true honest flight. so...

[Duke Bushido]

7 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Hello all,

 

One archetype that I haven’t ever played is the Speedster. I’m planning on building a basic Speedster.  So I’m wondering what do you Herophiles consider the bare minimum in skill and Powers for a Speedster. Is a high running enough? I do know that I want the character to be able to do Move bus and Move Thrus. So what should I be aware of? I’ve seen +PD only for Move bys/thrus. But would Res Protection be better?

 

 

 

 

A bit late to the party, and probably with a different take on speedsters, but it is something I've built a lot of (eighteen years of playing the same brick and you just don't want to ever play a brick again.....).  Building lots of Speedsters doesn't make me any expert, but it's given me a sort of "package" that I put into them.

 

Before you decide how you're going to move-- your movement power, your range, your SPD-- before you decide any of that, get a handful of Skill levels for use with that power.  High speed and combat is an incredibly defensive mixture for you _and_ for your target: movement penalties affect _both_ of you.

 

Decide two things before selecting a movement power: Don't worry about your SPD yet.  Decide how many inches per _TURN_ you want to move in Combat SPD.  Then decide if want to go faster NCM.

 

This just sets a soft benchmark on what you want as you move into the SPD decision.  You don't want a SPD more than 1, perhaps, if it's a very forgiving group, 2 above the group average.  Remember that as the speedster, you (and to a lesser extent, any martial artists) are going to define the top end of the group.  In the past, I've usually averaged everyone else's SPD and added 2.  If it wasn't the highest, I matched the highest SPD (if it belonged to a martial artist) and got with the GM to ask about going 1 above the highest if there was no martial artist.  Unless there was a hard cap, he was usually okay with it, but always get with the group first to ensure that it's going to be okay with everyone else.  And of course, if there was a wide range of SPD, I'd match the highest even if it was the brick.  The idea here was to "be a speedster," but not to hog all the action from my friends (not my character's friends, mind you-- you are playing this game with _your friends_, and it's just natural to want to share the fun with them.

 

After I had the SPD determined, then I'd divvy up the movement per Turn and buy my movement power.  I'd adjust up or down, depending on what I wanted after that.  Once you've got that under your belt, set your END and REC at appropriate levels   If your REC or END are going to end up grossly higher than everyone elses-- which is easy to do with a Speedster-- consider one or both of the following:

 

1) Reduced END.  This is almost a no-brainer for anyone playing 4e and up, but in the old editions, it's an (appropriately, in my own opinion) expensive option.  You don't have to go to zero END cost, but every bit you buy helps keep your END and REC more in line with the expectations of the rest of the group in terms of having to strategize or take recoveries, etc.

 

2) And END Reserve that powers only your movement powers, and which has its own Recovery.  Make it situational, if you want: only when struck by lightning; only by absorbing the kinetic energies released during an impact (that'd be Freight Train, if you were curious about if I had actually done that before  ). or even just by a second REC characteristic up from zero with the limitation that it only charges your reserve-- sky's the limit!

 

 

 

That's it.

 

That is my own personal "bare minimum" for a speedster.

 

Speedster tricks, abilities, justifying crazy powers through your special effects-- it's all gravy; season to taste.  For the heck of it, one that almost all of my speedsters had was an HA with Area of Affect: Hexes (this has been split up into lots of other things over the editions, but we stuck the restriction "only along the path of movement," which someone later refined in a 5e supplement into Area Effect: Trail.  Same / same).

 

 

I'm not going to suggest any speedster tricks, though-- there's a whole book for that these days. 

 

 

 

[Dr.Device]

8 hours ago, unclevlad said:

The reason for high SPD is that speedsters are another form of glass cannon...they usually can't take much punishment at all.  But they're in the combat zone.  Speedsters are perhaps the most impacted by the discrete-time, stepped approach, as well as the need to make things concrete.  Quicksilver and Flash are still moving at blur-level speeds...non-combat, by Hero...even in combat.  But you get hosed by that in Hero.  So what you really don't want is to be caught out with no action remaining, as much as you can...so you want a higher SPD.  

 

The discrete time issue is one of the two reasons I've never played a speedster. That and the area-of-effect problem.   Those two issues just offend my sense of verisimilitude too much. I came up with a solution I wanted to try at some point, but I never got around to playing a speedster once I thought of it.

 

25

Positional Uncertainty: Invisibility to Sight, Hearing, Smell/Taste and Radio Groups and Spatial Awareness , Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (50 Active Points); Linked (Running; -1/2), Does not conceal presence or features, only precise location (-1/2)

2

 

The idea is that they're not actually invisible, just moving so fast that they can't easily be targeted, even with AOE attacks. By the time an opponent targets the hex where they see the speedster, the speedster isn't there any more. The effect on opponents OCV is a nice bonus.

[unclevlad]

7 minutes ago, Dr.Device said:

 

The discrete time issue is one of the two reasons I've never played a speedster. That and the area-of-effect problem.   Those two issues just offend my sense of verisimilitude too much. I came up with a solution I wanted to try at some point, but I never got around to playing a speedster once I thought of it.

 

25

Positional Uncertainty: Invisibility to Sight, Hearing, Smell/Taste and Radio Groups and Spatial Awareness , Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (50 Active Points); Linked (Running; -1/2), Does not conceal presence or features, only precise location (-1/2)

2

 

The idea is that they're not actually invisible, just moving so fast that they can't easily be targeted, even with AOE attacks. By the time an opponent targets the hex where they see the speedster, the speedster isn't there any more. The effect on opponents OCV is a nice bonus.

 

Maybe.  I get the point;  they never have a good notion of where you are.  They can guesstimate from the thugs you hit or disarm, but you can move erratically.  But a problem with that approach is you'd be *burning* through END;  it's 2 per phase for this, plus the END for running, plus the END for STR in any case.  And with a higher-SPD character, which means REALLY burning through END fast.  And it could *easily* still be worthwhile to drop a 4m or 8m AoE or explosion, even if you guess where the speedster is.

 

7 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Let’s talk about Speed Cap. Now I’m the GM so having a cap per se isn’t an obstacle. So those whom are suggesting high Speed, are you suggesting that they should be at the top of the cap OR are they allowed to break the cap.  Say in a game with 4-6 Speed, should they be 6 or 7? 
 

And back to essentials. Does a Speedster need to be able to run up walls and or across water to qualify as a Speedster? That’s the thing I’m trying to nail down. Yes Speedsters are and should be varied but what is essential to them (in Hero terms)?

 

Speedster can completely ignore the cap, IMO, depending on the build.  If it's normally 4-6, then I might cap at 10 for a speedster.  Some of this is, moving that fast the speedster will be a big time stage hog.

 

Running up walls and across water is ELITE speedster stuff, IMO.  Flash's vibrational tricks, I'd put at Speedster Paragon.  Mind...it could be *cheaper* to buy it as Flight, only in contact with a surface, and buy back some or all of the base Running.  Flight 40m, 1/2 END, only in contact...you shave 10 points there, plus another 12 if you buy back ALL the running.  (NOTE:  that means you're always flying when you move...and therefore knockback is much more obvious.)  If you don't buy back the Running, the 1/4 limit on its own won't save you enough until...50m of movement and 1/2 END, if my mental math is right.  It's a wash there.  

 

The rules of the system simply don't match the dramatic presentation.

[Ockham's Spoon]

I agree with Duke Bushido that speedsters should be +1 or +2 SPD higher than more typical speeds, so 7 or 8 if the bulk of characters are 4 to 6.  The Hero system is pretty unique having a SPD characteristic so you might as well take advantage of that.  I would make more points here, but it would probably be easier just to read Duke Bushido's post again.

[Greywind]

9 hours ago, Dr.Device said:

 

The discrete time issue is one of the two reasons I've never played a speedster. That and the area-of-effect problem.   Those two issues just offend my sense of verisimilitude too much. I came up with a solution I wanted to try at some point, but I never got around to playing a speedster once I thought of it.

 

25

Positional Uncertainty: Invisibility to Sight, Hearing, Smell/Taste and Radio Groups and Spatial Awareness , Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (50 Active Points); Linked (Running; -1/2), Does not conceal presence or features, only precise location (-1/2)

2

 

The idea is that they're not actually invisible, just moving so fast that they can't easily be targeted, even with AOE attacks. By the time an opponent targets the hex where they see the speedster, the speedster isn't there any more. The effect on opponents OCV is a nice bonus.

 

Just as easy, and cheaper cost-wise and END-wise, to just buy DCV with the SFX of the speed.

[Ninja-Bear]

So far you guys have given me thoughts to chew on. I can see the biggest thing is to set down some campaign guidelines so I can judge things on how they relate.

[LoneWolf]

Using martial arts instead of standard maneuvers is the way to go.  Buy a couple of extra damage classes to get the damage where you want it.  The big thing is not just the damage, it is also the ability to do cool things and keep out of reach.  Passing disarm and Flying Dodge are two examples of what you should be looking at.  Martial Escape is also one you want to consider.  The special effect of that is you move to fast to be held.  

 

For the stats you probably want your SPD to be around 1.5 to 2 times the SPD of the average character.  Movement should be at least twice that of the average character.  An increased non-combat and/or Megascale movement is also something you want.   Consider a two slot multipower for this.  Your DEX should be the highest in the group

 

One thing to keep in mind with a speedster is that a high DEX and SPD does not mean you go first. It means you choose when you go.  Use the SPD chart to get away with things other cannot.  This often means waiting until someone else acts.  Delaying phase until the end of a segment on a phase where no one else acts besides you allows you to deliver a one two punch before your target can do anything. 
 

[Ockham's Spoon]

5 hours ago, Greywind said:

 

Just as easy, and cheaper cost-wise and END-wise, to just buy DCV with the SFX of the speed.

 

I agree the END is a potential issue, but no matter how high your DCV is, if your opponent can just target the hex you are in instead of you specifically, you are toast.  The Invisibility power forces them to make a PER roll to figure out where you are going to be, otherwise they can't target you at all.  It is like trying to swat a fly that is zipping around the room.  Unless you can track it, you can't attack it.

[Greywind]

7 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

So far you guys have given me thoughts to chew on. I can see the biggest thing is to set down some campaign guidelines so I can judge things on how they relate.

 

That is usually a good place to start.

[Ninja-Bear]

22 minutes ago, Greywind said:

 

That is usually a good place to start.

Well after mucking about I ran across that speed six is the minimum speed for a speedster.Well after mucking about I ran across that speed six is the minimum speed for a speedster.

[Ninja-Bear]

22 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

I'm not going to suggest any speedster tricks, though-- there's a whole book for that these days. 

The thing is, I have a few books that have Speedster Powers. That to me doesn’t still answer the “what is essential” to define a character as a Speedster. 

[Greywind]

3 hours ago, Ockham's Spoon said:

 

I agree the END is a potential issue, but no matter how high your DCV is, if your opponent can just target the hex you are in instead of you specifically, you are toast.  The Invisibility power forces them to make a PER roll to figure out where you are going to be, otherwise they can't target you at all.  It is like trying to swat a fly that is zipping around the room.  Unless you can track it, you can't attack it.

 

Which is why the rules bloated into an encyclopedia set instead of keeping things relatively simple.

 

15 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

The thing is, I have a few books that have Speedster Powers. That to me doesn’t still answer the “what is essential” to define a character as a Speedster. 

 

By one means or another they generally tend to move faster than everyone else.

[Duke Bushido]

1 hour ago, Ninja-Bear said:

The thing is, I have a few books that have Speedster Powers. That to me doesn’t still answer the “what is essential” to define a character as a Speedster. 

 

 

Sure.

 

What I gave you was what I thought you were asking for: what I peesonally find to be the "speedster essentials." That is to say, those things which speedsters in my games tend to have universally.  

 

After that, it's designing your unique character.  For example, I dont find Desolid to be universal, as Quicksikver soesnt have it, Cap rqin Marvel (the real one) doesnt have it, Superman doesnt have it (yet), etc.

 

Frankly. The liat od things I see presented as "common to speedster" can be boiled down to "how I make the Flash," but there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.  If "movws so fast hes invisible" is a must-have for you, then go for it.

 

Your idwa of a speedater might be "moving at nealry light speed" like the Flash.  It might be "beat a teleported- on foot- in a race acriss the universe like whatsisname that used to be Kid Flash.

 

Or it might be one-hundred seventy-five mph Quicksilver (yeah; I did some googling.  I had no idea that Kid Flash eziated outside the TV show).

 

What makes sense for obe dowsnt foe the other.  For example, my longest-running speedster is a villain named Freight Train; hes more ib the Quicksilver category,  he _does_ go through walls, but there's a very large hole where he did it.  He also has a forcewall: it centers on him and trails behind him as he moves.

 

One of the players in my youth group (I love my youth group: they arw always the last ones who want to turn to violence, but thats for another place) is running an old it even Kinetica.  She can do We split, but only while running full speed (her SFX is that she becomes kinetic energy, which she can then transfer to a solid object and across it and reform herself on the other side).

 

Kinetica has eight levels with her speed to rwduce turn modes, increase her OCV, etc

 

Freight Train has a limitation "Double Turn Mode."  Freight Train tops out at about 260 mph (to include x2 ncm), and he has another limitation "reduced acceleration / deceleration."  Kinetica tops out about Mach 4 with x8 NCM.  kinetica had zero END on her movement, while Freight Train has an END pool that recovers over time and with a transfer of the energy created upon impact with an obstacle.  Kinetica has an SPD 6 (originally 8, but dropped so that she was only 2 higher than the group average) while FT has an SPD of 4.

 

They are radically different characters, but they are both Speedsters.

 

And of course, Superman is always greater than everybody at everything.

 

Lots of people and source material can tell you hiw to recrwate the Flash.  If thats What you want to do, I can help with that, too (Power Pool, or its just not going to happen without twenty years of EP.   )

 

I gave you what I hope is information you can use to start any speedster.  I cant offer you much more until you decide the paeameters of the character.

[Ninja-Bear]

@Duke Bushido, oh you did with everything above the quote. That’s what I’m looking for. I was just pointing out that I have books with powers. They are great for how to build something but not why you should have it. Obviously I’m not that knowledgeable about Speedsters because some of those builds are interesting if you didn’t see the source beforehand.

[Duke Bushido]

Ah; I see.

 

Forgive me.  I misunderstood what you were saying there.  :oops:

 

 

So moving onward, then:

 

Just what sort of a speedster do you see your character being?   Flash?  Quicksilver?  Kid / God Flash?

 

Perhaps the Freight Train / Rocketeer route:  he's fast.   Period.   He's not Flash-fast, but he's undeniably uncatchable by the rest of them.  

 

And there's not much else.   

 

Design the character's personality first, if you're stuck for finding his niche.  This will quite often tip you off on just what sort of powers or abilities "feel right" for him.   As much as I enjoy some of the Flash stories I've seen (mostly the two TV series, but some animated ones), he's not the sort of speedster I have any interest in putting on a team: his god-like abilities almost confine him to being solo, or no one else really has anything to do...

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

21 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

Ah; I see.

 

Forgive me.  I misunderstood what you were saying there.  :oops:

 

 

So moving onward, then:

 

Just what sort of a speedster do you see your character being?   Flash?  Quicksilver?  Kid / God Flash?

 

Perhaps the Freight Train / Rocketeer route:  he's fast.   Period.   He's not Flash-fast, but he's undeniably uncatchable by the rest of them.  

 

And there's not much else.   

 

Design the character's personality first, if you're stuck for finding his niche.  This will quite often tip you off on just what sort of powers or abilities "feel right" for him.   As much as I enjoy some of the Flash stories I've seen (mostly the two TV series, but some animated ones), he's not the sort of speedster I have any interest in putting on a team: his god-like abilities almost confine him to being solo, or no one else really has anything to do...

 

 

Good advice! However, I’ve always been a cart before the horse type guy. So as to what type of Speedster? I don’t know, hence the minimum requirement. I figure I might run some scenario to get a feel then rebuild the character. I do have a few characters that I’m proud of that actually have a background and a full 150 pts in Disadvantages (4th ed). Mainly I build by powers and then slap some sort of Disadvantages on the character.

[Ninja-Bear]

@unclevladthanks for pointing out Elite Speedster stuff. That’s sort of the stuff that I’m looking at to avoid at this point.