The Non-Martial Art

[HeroGM]

HSMA has it where you can do a non-defined martial art. 8 3-pt CSLs where you can mix OCV, DCV, and dmg. 

 

I'm putting the character in HD tomorrow and I'll post the file. She's part of a X-Crawl / Urban Fantasy Hero game.

 

But to topic. Has anyone else done this and how has it worked for you? This is the 5th character I've done for this, the last a Half-Orc who took the levels with a -1/2 "only with bladed weapons" to represent all the sword mastery she learned as part of her training by her Orcan mother and in King Thar's (an orc) army. A lot of training without any real semblance of ordered style. 

[drunkonduty]

Yeah, I think it works well. And it's my preferred way of doing it unless I was running a specific martial arts campaign.

 

For new players it might be a bit more complex than buying martial manouevres. I think that "choose this power to be able to do X" is already well established as a gaming convention. Whereas "here's a bunch of flexible bonuses, do with them as you will" can be a bit intimidating when someone is already under the kosh from learning a new system.

[HeroGM]

One of the characters I had before started as a Martial artist with 2 MAs. It got to the point where I was dumpijng points into it all and me and the Reff at one mid-season session discussed character rebuilding and growth. I could re-dump all the m.a points I spent into the 8 CSL, some +HTH attacks (4 pts either way) and take wf's and knowledge skills with the idea of "I know all of these and this is how I mix them"....if I didn't have the skill though I didn't know the art. 

[drunkonduty]

28 minutes ago, HeroGM said:

One of the characters I had before started as a Martial artist with 2 MAs. It got to the point where I was dumpijng points into it all and me and the Reff at one mid-season session discussed character rebuilding and growth. I could re-dump all the m.a points I spent into the 8 CSL, some +HTH attacks (4 pts either way) and take wf's and knowledge skills with the idea of "I know all of these and this is how I mix them"....if I didn't have the skill though I didn't know the art. 

 

 

Did buying the CSLs work out cheaper on points?

[Duke Bushido]

Well this is all sounding very familiar....

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not an insult, folks; not a disparagement.  

 

I promise.   

 

 

It's what I've advocated for years, and usually get told I'm doing it wrong.   It's the Batman martial art:  I am a master of fifteen martial arts styles, and am proficient in eight more.

 

Assign your skill levels and yell "Hi-ya!"

 

 

Martial Arts.

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

8 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

It's what I've advocated for years, and usually get told I'm doing it wrong.   It's the Batman martial art:  I am a master of fifteen martial arts styles, and am proficient in eight more.

 

 

It was only when you were advocating of getting rid of Martial Maneuvers was where I took umbrage. 
 

 

[Duke Bushido]

2 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

It was only when you were advocating of getting rid of Martial Maneuvers was where I took umbrage. 
 

 

  Be fair:

 

I never suggested getting rid of them.

 

I suggested they were outliers that didn't belong in the main rules set.  Supplement?  Fine.  Main rules?  More stuff to confuse the new guys, and that, given the tendency in recent editions to fold everything into some version of a larger idea, sticks out like a dime on a dog's nose as being something that is clearly just a singular use of a larger thing-- in this case, Skill Levels.

 

Grab + Skill levels = Martial Grab.

 

Kick + Skill levels = martial Kick.

 

The big sticker seems to be "target falls" for most people, but really-- if I throw a guy, or trip a guy, are you _really_ going to rule that he doesn't fall because it doesn't say "Martial" in the description?  I trip a guy who gets tripped and doesn't fall?

 

The whole thing is based on a Lark one very popular (and rightfully so; he was quite talented, creatively) third-party writer came up with for a campaign, wrote up a book for creating your own similar campaign, and now it's rules?   Autoduel Champions is just as legitimate (shudder)-- same guy, even.   Why are we not using Car Wars for building vehicles?    

 

Okay, that last one is kidding. 

 

If you like it, enjoy it.  I'm not going to tell you you're wrong.

 

But "here's a handful of skill levels; yell something anime-esque when you assign them" is every bit as legitimate, and for my money, far simpler and more enjoyable.

 

 

 

 

[HeroGM]

If it works I use it. The same author also had a few maneuvers in that book too to hat were later tossed out, by him, as being too powerful. And yes I still sneak them in once in awhile. I love being an old gamer with out-of-print books. 

 

And I agree, this is good for those who know how to fight with no standard training (some agreement that you only put so much in what) or the ones who know so much it's useless to define each and every one. Plus it's "rules legal" so your not shoe horning anything into a multipower or power pool. 

 

Same as ideas from Skill and Fantasy 6e, creating little "feats" using PSLs and movement combos for armor. 

[archer]

4 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

The big sticker seems to be "target falls" for most people, but really-- if I throw a guy, or trip a guy, are you _really_ going to rule that he doesn't fall because it doesn't say "Martial" in the description?  I trip a guy who gets tripped and doesn't fall?

 

 

Those are my big sticking points. The advantage of your target being prone are extreme: DCV penalty and has to spend his next half phase to stand back up.

 

If I can get that for free just by saying "I trip my opponent" rather than saying "I punch my opponent", why would most characters ever choose to describe what they're doing as a punch rather than a trip?

 

Getting rid of Martial Throw and just using a "grab then throw with your STR" is less problematic to me. You lose the visual of little kids being able to throw an adult who is three times their size but little else.

 

But I entirely get the whole "you don't actually need Martial Arts to be a martial artist" thing. One of my first characters "Captain Kung Fu" (a good ol' boy redneck) had an outrageously high DEX which let him match or outmatch the most skilled martial artists in OCV/DCV even though (in his original incarnation) he himself knew no official martial arts maneuvers. Once you get "fast enough" in your actions, most people can't tell the difference between DEX and an official maneuver anyway, it's more of a "Wow, what the hell just happened? It all just happened so fast!"

 

(When I resurrected Captain Kung Fu for a limited campaign, I think I gave him Defensive Strike for a little extra defense to make sure a top level real real martial artist wouldn't just stack levels into OCV and hit him at will, Legsweep to let him set up his opponents for teammates to hammer, and something else that I can't remember at the moment.)

[Ninja-Bear]

3 hours ago, archer said:

Getting rid of Martial Throw and just using a "grab then throw with your STR" is less problematic to me. You lose the visual of little kids being able to throw an adult who is three times their size but little else.

Are you aware that there is a weight limit based on STR on how much a character can throw since 4th?

[Ninja-Bear]

8 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

  Be fair:

 

I never suggested getting rid of them.

 

I suggested they were outliers that didn't belong in the main rules set.  Supplement?  Fine.

And to be fair, I still take umbrage. 😜 Btw I should’ve made clear I have no problem with skill levels as martial arts.

[archer]

8 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Are you aware that there is a weight limit based on STR on how much a character can throw since 4th?

 

I must have read that at sometime in the past but didn't remember it as I was posting. I've played mostly 3rd and 4th with some 2nd and 5th. I've read 5th and Champions Complete.

[Ninja-Bear]

1 minute ago, archer said:

 

I must have read that at sometime in the past but didn't remember it as I was posting. I've played mostly 3rd and 4th with some 2nd and 5th. I've read 5th and Champions Complete.

Yeah the rule is you can’t throw anyone heavier than what you can lift with your pushed STR. That so a normal cannot martial throw a Mechs.

[archer]

1 minute ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Yeah the rule is you can’t throw anyone heavier than what you can lift with your pushed STR. That so a normal cannot martial throw a Mechs.

 

Yeah, that whole "I want to Martial Throw Cthulhu" thing is a real drag.

[Duke Bushido]

3 hours ago, archer said:

 

Those are my big sticking points. The advantage of your target being prone are extreme: DCV penalty and has to spend his next half phase to stand back up.

 

If I can get that for free just by saying "I trip my opponent" rather than saying "I punch my opponent", why would most characters ever choose to describe what they're doing as a punch rather than a trip?

 

 

 

First and foremost:

 

I know Ninja-Bear gets it, because this is fast becoming our "favorite" chestnut (the value of the martial arts rules, I mean)   .    I want to take just a minute to point out that the following questions and illustrations are _not_ sarcastic, _not_ meant to be barbs, jabs, or pokes, and are _not_ meant to be insulting.  Bear with me; I have reasons:  

 

1) the degradation of the way humans-- at least in english-speaking countries; I don't know enough of any other language to evaluate what I see from them-- treat and interact with each other has made all of those things so common as cause a real, honest-to-God ache in my heart.

 

2) the degradation of social values that has reached the point that sarcasm has come to be considered a mark of intelligence, and is reached for above all other conversational comments.  Frankly, this disgusts me.  Sarcasm has done a lot of damage to a lot of people over the years, yet the offenders will continue to do it, oblivious to the damage, because society rewards them "he's _so_ intelligent!"  Yes: insulting things has become a sign of intelligence.  Want to look smart?  Read celebrity gossip, watch fictional TV shows and make constant references, and insult everything.  I can't express how much this saddens me, and I want to state that what you read below may seem to be sarcastic in places (I don't know yet; I haven't written it.        )   many years ago, I destroyed a relationship that was very valuable to me simply by being "funny:" that is, sarcastic.  I have never been able to regain fully the trust or the warmth of that person and that relationship, respectively.  From that point on, I have gone to great lengths to eliminate sarcasm from my conversational repertoire, and reserve it only for those moments non-targeted, obvious jokes.  Still, I work at not doing that, either.

 

3) Perhaps most importantly:

there is at least one member of this board who is held in extremely high regard whose entire disagreement "technique" is to sarcastically insult the person or people with whom he disagrees.  He gets away with it constantly, as his visits are rare in recent years, and as I said, he is, for whatever reason, held in high standing.  I suspect it's a combination of "Sarcasm = Intelligence" combined with "if I cheer for him, I won't be next."  Either way, he turned the insult gun toward me for the-- fourth?  Tenth?  No matter-- time some while back, and I got myself a demerit for refusing to accept being insulted.   I do _not_ want anyone else to feel that they are in the position of being insulted by me, or being motivated to speak out against me as a bully or overtly disrespectful.  That is to say, I don't want anyone here getting their own demerit because they felt they had to speak up against a slight that I am now promising you _will not be there_. 

 

 

 

To the meat of things:

 

From Ninja HERO 4e:

 

Flying Tackle:......... 3 pts.......... 0/-1............  +v/5, You fall, Target falls, Full Move

Grappling Throw.....3 pts............0/+2........... +v/5, Target Falls, Must Follow Grab

Killing Throw:..........5 pts..........-2/0............. Strike +2d6, Target falls

Legsweep: ..............3 pts.........+2/-1.............Strike +1d6, Target falls

Martial Throw..........3 pts...........0/+1.............+v/5, Target falls

 

 

Sacrifice Throw.......3 pts..........+2/+1...........Strike, You fall, Target falls

Takedown................3 pts...........+1/+1...........Strike, Target falls

 

Those last two in particular:

 

Remove "You fall" and one skill level, and it's become Takedown.  It's become Takedown right to the cost, demonstrating that "you fall" is worth one bonus 3pt Skill level.  Strike is free to anyone with STR.  Takedown has no time penalty (it's a half-phase, like the other Strike-based maneuvers).

 

The idea that for three points and yelling "Hi-yah!" I can get two Skill Levels _and_ "Target Falls" suggests to me that "Target Falls" is _not_ something that has to be bought.  I know: the Throw element is listed as costing one point.  One point.  Is that even a Skill Level?

 

Go to Grappling Throw.  Three points again, two Skill Levels, and  the one-point Target Falls.  "Must Follow Grab" is a limitation that rebates 2 pts; I'd suggest that not only does it wash the 1-pt cost of the bonus damage (which makes this thing a Move-By: STR damage plus velocity/5 damage is a Move-By), but spends the unaccounted-for remaining point on a mystery defense that protects you from the blowback of your move-by maneuver.

 

I know: it doesn't say Move By in the text, but +v/5 is a move-by, which suffers from a total of -4 Skill levels, yet those four skill levels are just given away when the move becomes "Martial."

 

So Martial Throw is, in reality, a Move By with +2 Skill Levels set into OCV and +3 Skill Levels set into DCV, the impossible-without-Martial-Arts Target Falls element, and the mysterious unnamed on-point element that protects the user from taking a piece of that damage as with any other Move By.  Five Skill levels, a downed opponent, and a defense totally worth looking into for your favorite speedster or brick, all for 3 pts.

 

We can skip picking them apart, though, and go right to the roll-your-own section, where we see that +v/5 costs 1pt and +1 DCV costs 1 pts. and Target Falls is a mere point.  One point.

 

"Takedown backs this up:   Well, bonus OCV isn't listed directly, but "NND OCV" is (I have always assumed that's a typo; I accept that I may be wrong, and that "NND OCV" is something that I just can't figure out) listed at +1 pt, DCV is listed at +1 pt.  That leaves both one point and Target Falls, is in line with what we've seen so far.

 

Sacrifice Throw is three points, contains three points worth of CV, but it still has Target Falls.  It also has You Fall, which rebates two points, and the two wash each other out. Except that they don't.  Look at Grappling Throw:

 

Grappling Throw gets weird, though: for three points you get two points of DCV and the one-point v/5.  You still get Target Falls, which must wash with Must Follow Grab....   which is _two_ "rebated" points, so now "Target Falls" is worth _two_ points?

 

 

We can do this over and over (well, we can't.  I wanted to go through all three editions, but the wife says I've ten minutes to finish up and help her in the kitchen, so let me skip right to the other problem with the idea that you have to buy Martial Arts to knock someone down)

 

 

The biggest problem I have with the idea that you must buy a Martial Maneuver to knock someone over is Ninja HERO was a 4e book.  We had to go back and re-play an entire _decade_ worth of adventures because until then we had been playing wrong, not realizing that we were completely unable to knock people down!     

 

No; seriously, though:  does anyone actually play the game this way?  Is it impossible in anyone's game to knock someone over without buying the element?  If I direct a 3d6 kick at an opponent's knee and succeed, will he simply not fall?  If I direct a 2-1/2d6 KA: sword with an STR Bonus of 1D6 at his knee, is there a GM who will seriously rule that he just Black Knights me, standing there on his one remaining leg, taunting me?  Or will he _fall down_?  If I declare that my STR 17 grappling goon has opted to take his grabbed hundred-and-thirty pound opponent and do a Body Slam, is there a GM-- not just on the board, but on the planet-- who is going to rule that my goon will _miss the floor_ because he does not have Martial Arts?  If my teammate has successfully CON-Stunned an opponent, and for whatever reason he is still standing, is it impossible for me to knock him down?  I don't have any martial arts.

 

 

Anyway, I'd love to break this down for the next two editions-- we know that there were some changes here and there-- but my time is nearly up.

 

 

Point is, "Strategic value" or no, people can be knocked down.  Hell, they fall down all the time without help from anything but a smart phone.

 

 

 

[HeroGM]

Hence Knockback vs. Knockdown. In my games you don't HAVE to buy Martial Arts to swing a sword, you can get CSLs or PSLs to help you with that. I use the Dex/DCV penalty while wearing armor (depending on weight of armor). I've been using the suggestions in FH6/HSEG to allow people to buy "feats" to offset those penalties along with the movement within limits. I also allow them to buy "Sword Muscle" which like Gun Muscle allows them to get past the Str min on certain weapons. You want that little girl swinging the big @$$ sword? No problem. While I play and run my games intelligently it's still a game in the end. If I want to  introduce a few tropes in the game I will. 

 

AS to the topic. This is what DC's website has to say about Black Canary

 

Quote

She has been trained by Wildcat, who is formerly the Heavyweight Champion of the World, in the arts of boxing, muay thai, capoeira, krav maga, and hapkido. She has also been trained in dragon style kung fu and pressure point fighting by Richard Dragon. Thanks to Wonder Woman, Black Canary has been trained in Amazon martial arts but is strictly a novice in this kind of fighting. Other styles that she has shown skill in include savate, judo, aikido, jujitsu, wing chun, and tae kwon do.

 

So instead of buying all of that [Unless you're running a die-hard Dark Champion's or Martial Arts game], buy some skill levels and extra HTH damage. Maybe some extra STR. Not everything has to be apparent. For example I played a Vietnamese character in Dark Champions. When I built him he had  a base PRE of 10..that's it. I put some points into Conversation and Charm, some in PRE defense. Here is a guy who  looks like he could blend into the woodwork, but once you start talking to him he captures your attention. HIs partner was a 6"10 african-american that you notice as soon as he comes into the room, Tranh? He comes in and blends in and looks and notices what's going on. That scrawny rogue with 12m movement? He may have +12m movement, only to make half moves (giving him the full 12m). 

 

IIRC you can skip buying the same Maneuvers if they  are in different M.Arts as long as you have the knowledge skill for both, a big cost cutter I know. Tere is still a point of diminishing returns where that becomes crazy to keep up with. Just as HSMA even says, you can do this, or create Martial Arts as powers. While I admit S. Long can be...longwinded(?) in his writing he does make some very good suggestions to the game. But to talk about my opinions of him vs the game, DM me. 

 

When I introduced the half-orc warrior into the game, the other players were confused with what style she was using because it seemed to be a mix of everything. You later find out that King Thar got ahold of a "Roman" Legionnaires manual and had taken stuff from that and she had learned things not just from her warrior family but from people that were taken prisoner.  This resulted in a very confusing Martial Art for those around her. Instead of quantifying it all in game terms I went to the GM and pointed out HSMA and said "can I do it like this?" with his full permission. As I got a few XP under my (her) belt we discussed extra damage...Will I can't do the extra DC for Martial Arts since I don't have any. BUT I can do extra HTH damage for +4 points the same thing that the extra DC does.  Really freak someone out when you have a half-orc female that can put all 8 lvls into either OCV or DCV. And yes, he did pay heed to the fact that I could put the CSl's into damage as well and limited the # of +HTH levels I could get. 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Some years ago I built "zero cost" martial arts using the system in various editions of Hero martial arts, lowering the cost by reducing OCV, etc.  Basically it let people use any maneuver in the book, but they sucked at it because the DCV and OCV and so on were so bad.

 

Using that and skill levels you can make a pretty impressive martial artist.  But there are too many maneuvers which aren't available using only skill levels.

[archer]

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

First and foremost:

 

I know Ninja-Bear gets it, because this is fast becoming our "favorite" chestnut (the value of the martial arts rules, I mean)   .    I want to take just a minute to point out that the following questions and illustrations are _not_ sarcastic, _not_ meant to be barbs, jabs, or pokes, and are _not_ meant to be insulting.  Bear with me; I have reasons:  

 

1) the degradation of the way humans-- at least in english-speaking countries; I don't know enough of any other language to evaluate what I see from them-- treat and interact with each other has made all of those things so common as cause a real, honest-to-God ache in my heart.

 

2) the degradation of social values that has reached the point that sarcasm has come to be considered a mark of intelligence, and is reached for above all other conversational comments.  Frankly, this disgusts me.  Sarcasm has done a lot of damage to a lot of people over the years, yet the offenders will continue to do it, oblivious to the damage, because society rewards them "he's _so_ intelligent!"  Yes: insulting things has become a sign of intelligence.  Want to look smart?  Read celebrity gossip, watch fictional TV shows and make constant references, and insult everything.  I can't express how much this saddens me, and I want to state that what you read below may seem to be sarcastic in places (I don't know yet; I haven't written it.        )   many years ago, I destroyed a relationship that was very valuable to me simply by being "funny:" that is, sarcastic.  I have never been able to regain fully the trust or the warmth of that person and that relationship, respectively.  From that point on, I have gone to great lengths to eliminate sarcasm from my conversational repertoire, and reserve it only for those moments non-targeted, obvious jokes.  Still, I work at not doing that, either.

 

3) Perhaps most importantly:

there is at least one member of this board who is held in extremely high regard whose entire disagreement "technique" is to sarcastically insult the person or people with whom he disagrees.  He gets away with it constantly, as his visits are rare in recent years, and as I said, he is, for whatever reason, held in high standing.  I suspect it's a combination of "Sarcasm = Intelligence" combined with "if I cheer for him, I won't be next."  Either way, he turned the insult gun toward me for the-- fourth?  Tenth?  No matter-- time some while back, and I got myself a demerit for refusing to accept being insulted.   I do _not_ want anyone else to feel that they are in the position of being insulted by me, or being motivated to speak out against me as a bully or overtly disrespectful.  That is to say, I don't want anyone here getting their own demerit because they felt they had to speak up against a slight that I am now promising you _will not be there_. 

 

 

 

To the meat of things:

 

From Ninja HERO 4e:

 

Flying Tackle:......... 3 pts.......... 0/-1............  +v/5, You fall, Target falls, Full Move

Grappling Throw.....3 pts............0/+2........... +v/5, Target Falls, Must Follow Grab

Killing Throw:..........5 pts..........-2/0............. Strike +2d6, Target falls

Legsweep: ..............3 pts.........+2/-1.............Strike +1d6, Target falls

Martial Throw..........3 pts...........0/+1.............+v/5, Target falls

 

 

Sacrifice Throw.......3 pts..........+2/+1...........Strike, You fall, Target falls

Takedown................3 pts...........+1/+1...........Strike, Target falls

 

Those last two in particular:

 

Remove "You fall" and one skill level, and it's become Takedown.  It's become Takedown right to the cost, demonstrating that "you fall" is worth one bonus 3pt Skill level.  Strike is free to anyone with STR.  Takedown has no time penalty (it's a half-phase, like the other Strike-based maneuvers).

 

The idea that for three points and yelling "Hi-yah!" I can get two Skill Levels _and_ "Target Falls" suggests to me that "Target Falls" is _not_ something that has to be bought.  I know: the Throw element is listed as costing one point.  One point.  Is that even a Skill Level?

 

Go to Grappling Throw.  Three points again, two Skill Levels, and  the one-point Target Falls.  "Must Follow Grab" is a limitation that rebates 2 pts; I'd suggest that not only does it wash the 1-pt cost of the bonus damage (which makes this thing a Move-By: STR damage plus velocity/5 damage is a Move-By), but spends the unaccounted-for remaining point on a mystery defense that protects you from the blowback of your move-by maneuver.

 

I know: it doesn't say Move By in the text, but +v/5 is a move-by, which suffers from a total of -4 Skill levels, yet those four skill levels are just given away when the move becomes "Martial."

 

So Martial Throw is, in reality, a Move By with +2 Skill Levels set into OCV and +3 Skill Levels set into DCV, the impossible-without-Martial-Arts Target Falls element, and the mysterious unnamed on-point element that protects the user from taking a piece of that damage as with any other Move By.  Five Skill levels, a downed opponent, and a defense totally worth looking into for your favorite speedster or brick, all for 3 pts.

 

We can skip picking them apart, though, and go right to the roll-your-own section, where we see that +v/5 costs 1pt and +1 DCV costs 1 pts. and Target Falls is a mere point.  One point.

 

"Takedown backs this up:   Well, bonus OCV isn't listed directly, but "NND OCV" is (I have always assumed that's a typo; I accept that I may be wrong, and that "NND OCV" is something that I just can't figure out) listed at +1 pt, DCV is listed at +1 pt.  That leaves both one point and Target Falls, is in line with what we've seen so far.

 

Sacrifice Throw is three points, contains three points worth of CV, but it still has Target Falls.  It also has You Fall, which rebates two points, and the two wash each other out. Except that they don't.  Look at Grappling Throw:

 

Grappling Throw gets weird, though: for three points you get two points of DCV and the one-point v/5.  You still get Target Falls, which must wash with Must Follow Grab....   which is _two_ "rebated" points, so now "Target Falls" is worth _two_ points?

 

 

We can do this over and over (well, we can't.  I wanted to go through all three editions, but the wife says I've ten minutes to finish up and help her in the kitchen, so let me skip right to the other problem with the idea that you have to buy Martial Arts to knock someone down)

 

 

The biggest problem I have with the idea that you must buy a Martial Maneuver to knock someone over is Ninja HERO was a 4e book.  We had to go back and re-play an entire _decade_ worth of adventures because until then we had been playing wrong, not realizing that we were completely unable to knock people down!     

 

No; seriously, though:  does anyone actually play the game this way?  Is it impossible in anyone's game to knock someone over without buying the element?  If I direct a 3d6 kick at an opponent's knee and succeed, will he simply not fall?  If I direct a 2-1/2d6 KA: sword with an STR Bonus of 1D6 at his knee, is there a GM who will seriously rule that he just Black Knights me, standing there on his one remaining leg, taunting me?  Or will he _fall down_?  If I declare that my STR 17 grappling goon has opted to take his grabbed hundred-and-thirty pound opponent and do a Body Slam, is there a GM-- not just on the board, but on the planet-- who is going to rule that my goon will _miss the floor_ because he does not have Martial Arts?  If my teammate has successfully CON-Stunned an opponent, and for whatever reason he is still standing, is it impossible for me to knock him down?  I don't have any martial arts.

 

 

Anyway, I'd love to break this down for the next two editions-- we know that there were some changes here and there-- but my time is nearly up.

 

 

Point is, "Strategic value" or no, people can be knocked down.  Hell, they fall down all the time without help from anything but a smart phone.

 

 

Thank you for the remarks on sarcasm. I've often thought over the years that I should have written up all my brilliant Champions thoughts and put them in an easily accessible location for people to view so that I'd be widely-respected as a writer. I don't know if that would get anyone to cut me any slack or if anyone besides me would think my Champions thoughts were brilliant. But at least my ideas would no longer be on scraps of paper scattered across a dozen locations around my house, which would be of great help to me if no one else.  

 

I wouldn't BEGIN to try to argue that Martial Arts are consistently costed or accurately costed. I know for sure they aren't consistently costed because I use Ninja Hero myself. I honestly don't know exactly what the hypothetical "correct" costs for martial arts should be.

 

I don't have a problem with a called shot to the legs knocking someone down (assuming it causes enough damage to seem reasonable, one point of STUN to Godzilla wouldn't seem reasonable to knock him down). I've always kind of house ruled it that way. I don't think they call it "called shot" in 6e but you still take a -4 OCV for trying to hit the legs so you're paying for the house-ruled "target falls".

 

I also don't have a problem completely waiving the -4 OCV penalty for the called leg shot when the target is unaware he's going to be attacked. (The legs are a huge target compared to something like the head.)

 

Other than that, there's also Knockdown which you get for free.

 

But whatever the cost is, I think it is either appropriate to pay something for "target falls" or to drastically change the amount of the penalty for being prone and having to get back up.

 

2 cents

 

(I need to go help with the cooking myself. Good luck with the vittles.)

[Duke Bushido]

Sorry; I haven't time to reply properly, but I had a moment and wanted to make sure I hadn't accidentally started a war. 

 

 

I think you all understand I don't use Martial Arts as introduced by Allston; we'd been playing since 1e and weren't going to change the we'd been doing it simply because it worked far too well compared to what Allston offered.  We completely understood that this was fun set dressing for a very specific type of campaign, and we enjoyed the book, but none of us have ever had any interest in that type of campaign.  For us, the most "fun" from martial arts conceptually was yelling every time you hit someone.  (To this day, players with martial artists will do that.  Every Single Time)

 

Christopher:  I posit that there are no maneuvers which can't be done without buying a martial art.  None.    Even kids on skateboard can do backflips, and american football is built around the flying anything.

 

[archer]

12 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

Christopher:  I posit that there are no maneuvers which can't be done without buying a martial art.  None.    Even kids on skateboard can do backflips, and american football is built around the flying anything.

 

 

Wait until Chris's new supplement with the Skateboarding Martial Art and the American Football Martial Art comes out in 2021. 

 

(Though I think he ripped off the football Martial Art from a back issue of Adventurers Club.)

[Ninja-Bear]

6 hours ago, archer said:

 

Wait until Chris's new supplement with the Skateboarding Martial Art and the American Football Martial Art comes out in 2021. 

 

(Though I think he ripped off the football Martial Art from a back issue of Adventurers Club.)

Ahem....Football martial art was a tongue and cheek example in Ninja Hero 4th. And those comments are from the author himself.

And the costs basically came from breaking down the free maneuvers to make them zero. And the damage is based on STR 20 iirc.

[Ninja-Bear]

As a funny aside, I just found an old Hero I made named Black Cat ( yes this was for Supers). His martial art was called Catfighting 😂.

[Duke Bushido]

Had numerous phone calls today (we didn't go anywhere, and all my friends and family out of town were made well aware eight weeks ago that traveling in from somewhere and coming up to my door was a great way to get hit with a brick and sent packing: my wife and daughter are both high-risk (asthma), and my age and heart problems aren't helping me too much these days, particularly with the drop in fitness by eight months of "go nowhere; do nothing." 

 

Anyway, during the phone calls from old friends, many memories and much celebration came out, including a bit of "group lingo" referring to things from games gone past.  One of those terms led me to this:

 

 

Martial Sneer:  3 pts --------+1/+2-----------Must Follow Presence Attack; Target falls.

 

I didn't really want to add the OCV, but there's a minimum cost of 3, so why not?   Turn an entire team of opponents into Fainting Goats.   

 

 

The term goes way back to a game just about the time 3e was being distributed: Jim had picked up both the boxed set and the perfect bound single-volume printings  (he was like that).  I hadn't picked them up yet (and, it turns out, wouldn't for roughy thirty years).  Anyway, we had a new guy who was what we used to call a Some Timer (not to be confused with a part timer, who was someone who, while not always available, could be counted on to show up when he said he would).  I honestly don't recall his name, but something in the back of my mind says it was Keith, and since it doesn't matter, that's what we're going to call him. 

 

Keith was excited for the game, for the social activity, and for the hoots and hollers of well-played sessions, but Keith was suffered from a chronic crippling shyness that we had spent several sessions working on (mostly me yelling at everyone else before Keith arrived, telling them "Look; he's got comfort problems being around us; we're relative strangers.  Whatever he does, you _love_ it, period.  Talk to him in character, out of character, whatever it takes."-- that sort of thing.

 

Because of his shyness, Keith wasn't really good at the descriptive part of the game, or the interactive part of the game, but he really did try, at least as best he was able.  The bad guy is before the team, Keith's Batman Clone is in the rafters, observing closely while the team moves in.  The boss smiles, laughs, and haughtily announces "you people have the worst timing.  Any other night, I wouldn't have been here, and you would have lived...."  looks back at his business and jerks an extended index finger toward the group, a signal that sends a dozen armed minions out of the shadows toward the team.

 

Keith:  Okay, uhm...  I wanna- can I jump down?  I wanna jump down.

 

Sure.  It's only eighteen feet or so, and you've got Superleap (2e, remember?), so sure; you won't have any problem with that.

 

Okay, I jump down-- ooh!  Can I jump like on one of the bad guys?

 

You can, but remember two things: you can totally kill a guy like that if you break his neck, or paralyze him if you damage his spine.  If you still want to try, I will let you, of course, but remember you're one of the good guys.  Also remember that such a move would technically be a move-through, and you'll take half the damage.

 

Okay....  uhm....   Can I....  Can I jump down, like right in front of one of the guys?

 

Sure.

 

Okay, I hit him!

 

You can't.  You're still in the rafters.

 

Wha--  oh, yeah, okay.  I jump down in front of a guy and hit him.  Like, really hard.

 

Which guy? I nod toward the impromptu map.

 

Okay, the so the big red round dice there...  that's the boss, right?

 

RIght.

 

And this pencil eraser here, that's a bad guy?

 

No; that's a pencil eraser.  Sorry about that.  Brent, pick that up and keep it out of the map!

 

Okay, these two dice on top of each other...?

 

That's a bad guy.  He's standing in front of the boss as a sort of ersatz bodyguard until the team is taken care of.  He's not likely to move from that position unless things go really, really badly for his guys.

 

Okay, that's the guy I want to drop in front of, and as soon as I land, I want to ...   I guess just hit him?

 

Sure.  How?  You've got weapons and your punches and kicks.  Which are you going to use?

 

The club thing-- the baton.  Wait!  Does he look tough?

 

He looks big and tough, and just like the other guys, he seems to be wearing a motorcycle helmet of some sort with a flaming eyeball painted along the crest of it.

 

Okay, I...  I _jump_!  I jump down and I hit this guy, like with the stick, as hard as I can!

 

We roll, the body guard goes down even before he registers what happened.  The boss looks up, shocked by the instant appearance of a hero right in front of him and the crumpling of his henchman.

 

Okay, Keith; you have the higher SPD and the boss is clearly shocked.  What do you do?

 

Okay, I get my club--

 

Someone butted in with "Presence Attack, Keith!  Perfect opportunity for a presence attack!"

 

Okay, yeah-- I do one of those!  Wait-- that's when you scare them, right?  And I can get extra dice if he's already scared, right?

 

Yep.  You've got the appeared-from-nowhere thing going on, the extremely violent action going on, and you dispatched his most capable henchman as if he were a mannequin.  [I tossed him four extra dice].  Add those; you've got eight dice now.  What sort of Presence Attack are you making?

 

??

 

What do you do? What do you say?

 

Oh, I uh..    Okay, I stand there looking cool; I don't even check the guy I just knocked out to be sure.  I turn my head and ....   I look at the boss.

 

You look at him?

 

Yeah. Like _hard_, you know?  I look at him like, really _hard_.

 

 

"Ah, yes!"  Chimes in Jeff, who, while an extremely amusing dry-witted type, had a really hard time remembering the "don't shake his confidence" sessions.  "Nothing more intimidating than a good sneer, really.  It's all the rage in gunfights nowadays...."

 

We all pointedly ignore it; Keith rolls his dice.  easily _half_ of them were sixes.  There was one three and one four.  No ones; no twos.

 

Jeff's eyes bugged for a moment.  "Oh; my bad!  I didn't realize you were using your Martial Sneer......

 

Anyway, Keith managed to get the boss shook up long enough to wrangle him with bolos and cuff him.

 

It was a hilarious moment for all of us, but a great one for Keith.  It also brought "Martial Sneer" into our lexicon.   

 

 

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Christopher:  I posit that there are no maneuvers which can't be done without buying a martial art.  None.

 

Martial arts maneuvers not possible using only basic maneuvers and skill levels:

Choke Hold (NND damage continuous)

  (any of the moves which use the NND damage element)

Disarming Throw (disarm and throw at the same time)

  Any of the moves which combine two attacks into one single half phase attack

Flying Dodge (full move +DCV bonus)

  (any of the "flying" moves which use the Full Move element)

Killing Strike

  (any of the moves which use the Killing Attack element)

Martial Flash (flash attack)

  (any of the moves which use the "flash" blinding element)

Martial Escape 

  (any of the moves which involve the "escape" element with bonus STR to break grab)

 

There's a disable element too, that lets you hit a limb and disable it, without causing the full long-term body damage.

 

Martial Arts introduces several things into the combat system not possible using only the basic list of maneuvers.

Can you build them using powers and talents and so on?  Sure.  But the discussion at hand is "using only combat skill levels to simulate martial arts"

[LoneWolf]

If all you are looking to do is to adjust the OCV, DCV and damage a skill level based martial art work fine.  Where it has problems is trying to simulate the anything else.  While anyone can attempt a disarm or a grab the standard maneuvers don’t give you any extra STR and skill levels don’t allow you to do that.  Throws face similar problems.  Martial maneuvers may not be the only way to throw you opponent, but other methods are often more difficult and many of them do not guarantee success.  Without maneuvers things like killing strikes, martial flash and nerve strikes are going to have to be purchased as powers.  This makes it a lot more expensive for two reasons.  First of all you need to actually purchase those as powers which are usually more expensive than doing it as maneuvers.  Second is that doing that will result in the cost of the skill levels becoming more expensive.  A 3pt sill level only applies to a limited number of maneuvers.   Adding in more powers will usually mean that you have to bump that up to a 5pt skill level.

 

There is also no reason you cannot combine purchasing martial maneuvers with using combat skill levels.  Purchase a martial arts with minimal maneuvers and buy combat skill levels.  The minimum cost for a martial arts is 10 and 3 maneuvers.  For a sword based martial arts you could go with a Fast Strike, Martial Block, and a Martial Disarm for 12 points.  Use another 12pts for 4 3pt combat skill levels. You can achieve nearly identical results as the character who put all the points into 8 combat skill levels.  Your OCV and DCV maxes are 2 points lower, but you get a +2 OCV when maxing out damage.  you also get both an OCV and DCV bonus when blocking.  When you attempt a disarm your max OCV and DCV are a little lower, but on the average better and you have a much better chance of actually disarming your opponent.