The Non-Martial Art

[Duke Bushido]

19 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Martial arts maneuvers not possible using only basic maneuvers and skill levels:

 

No.

 

Some use power builds.  Still doesn't require martial arts.

 

Defender was a martial artist before Allston ever had his idea to sell Skill levels in fractions for single-use builds.

 

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Choke Hold (NND damage continuous)

 

HtH Attack; NND.  LImited by STR if you like, but not necessary.  Far more options if you don't.

 

 

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  (any of the moves which use the NND damage element)

 

See above.   Actually, that's pretty much _all_ the moves that use the NND element: HtH: NND.  

 

There.  One build, and now I have unlimited styles should I so choose.  And of course, all the moves that use the NND element.

 

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Disarming Throw (disarm and throw at the same time)

 

Breaks the rules as-is (two actions in your half-phase), but no one complains because "mystic arts" and "I can yell He-Yah!"  Still, if you can break the rules there, you can break them elsewhere:

 

Throw.  Grab weapon on the way by.

 

Yes; it's two moves.  So is, if I may quote "Disarm and throw."  we'll do the same thing "martial arts" did and add the key phrase "at the same time:"

 

Throw opponent and grab weapon _at the same time_.

 

 

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  Any of the moves which combine two attacks into one single half phase attack

 

All break the rules in their own way, but hey-- martial arts, amirite?   

 

Multipower Attacks have, for many players, _always_ been a part of the game; they were officially codified in 5e.

 

So....

 

HtH attack, HtH attack, HtH attack.  Assign dice as desired.   Using multipower attack, I can now combine _three_ attacks into a single half phase!  Or use autofire for up to ten; whichever seems best.

 

Ohh!  Wait:  HtH attack 3d6 Autofire, HtH attack 3d6 Autofire, HtH attack 3d6 autofire....   Declare a multiple power attack, through in some skill levels-- Boom!  Thirty attacks in a half phase.

 

 

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Flying Dodge (full move +DCV bonus)

 

You can put your skill levels wherever you want.  It's zero phase, use-it-with-a-full-move stuff.

 

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  (any of the "flying" moves which use the Full Move element)

 

Break the rules if you let them use a full move and an attack _in the same Phase_ and don't declare it as a move-by or a move-through.

 

However:

 

Move by.

Move through.

 

If you want to use stuff from martial arts, use the unnamed single-point adder that makes you immune to taking any of the v/5 damage.  That, I think, is _totally_ worth the point.  We should let speedsters have it, too.

 

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Killing Strike

  (any of the moves which use the Killing Attack element)

 

No sarcasm here:  I simply want to point out that your argument is that I can't use Killing Attack without buying a Killing element via martial arts.  I could digress into the "ranged" versus "STR Bonus" points to the existence of a 10-pt Killing Attack that has neither range nor STR Bonus, which in turn points to the existence if a +1/2 "Killing" Advantage, but I won't get any deeper into it, because Hugh hates it.     However, if I were to do it, it would point out just how busted the costing for the killing element is.

 

At any rate:  Killing Attack.  It comes with even more Killing Attack if you have an STR of 15 or higher.

 

 

 

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Martial Flash (flash attack)

  (any of the moves which use the "flash" blinding element)

 

Again: the argument is that I can't use the actual _power_ without buying the element that simulates it.

 

Flash.  Done.

 

 

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Martial Escape 

  (any of the moves which involve the "escape" element with bonus STR to break grab)

 

It sounds crazy to folks who hold fast to the idea that the campaign guidelines for one guy's one campaign are die hard essentials for all guys' all campaigns, but I'm going to go with +X STR; no extra lifting / jumping.  Or even more specifically: +STR: only to break grab.

 

 

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Martial Arts introduces several things into the combat system not possible using only the basic list of maneuvers.

Can you build them using powers and talents and so on?  Sure.  But the discussion at hand is "using only combat skill levels to simulate martial arts"

 

No; _your_ discussion might be "only using combat skill levels to simulate martial arts;" I won't deny that.

 

My posit was "there are no martial maneuvers that can't be done without buying martial arts."  I didn't mention Skill Levels there at all, mostly because I understand that Martial Arts itself isn't possible without dipping into the Powers list, though over the years I have learned that renaming a super-discount Skill Level or Power as an "Element" is enough to make a lot of people fail to see them as actual Powers after that.

 

Your discussion screws anyone from demonstrating this, because you are implying that Allston built the Martial Arts from Skill Levels alone, which he did not.  As you pointed out, you can't Skill Level your way into a Killing Attack.  However, because "ooh!  Martial Arts!," you can buy a Killing Attack for some ridiculously low-low price.

 

So...   Martial Arts should remain core rules because.....Cheese?    or because Tasty Cheese?   

 

I disagree.  There are a number of martial arts (actual martial arts; not dice-and-hex-paper martial arts) fans on the board and in the hobby, and you want to know something?  I think _that_ is the reason everyone argue so vehemently when I state my opinion that they are unnecessary.  "Oooh; but that's my jam!" doesn't make something more relevant, more critical, or more un-cheesed.  It just means it's something that _you_ like.  I don't even advocate doing away with them, honestly: I actually think it was originally a very cute idea, and I still think so today.  However, I think they should be very clearly relegated to "this kind of a campaign" and not presented as core rules.

 

And just so you and I can both properly apologize to the OP for skewing the course of this thread,  the conversation at hand is the generic, non-specified martial art and using it in Hero Designer.

 

Sorry, Hero GM.

 

I helped drag your thread off course, and didn't realize it wouldn't bounce back.

 

I know nothing of Hero Designer, and can't help you there, but I am a _huge_ fan of doing Martial Arts builds without doing Martial Arts builds, so I sincerely hope it's as easy to work out as it sounds.

 

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yes, you can technically build everything in the game using powers.  But since we're discussing martial arts, and the argument I made was:
 

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Martial arts maneuvers not possible using only basic maneuvers and skill levels

 

 

I dunno what you have in mind here.  

 

[Ninja-Bear]

14 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Yes, you can technically build everything in the game using powers.  But since we're discussing martial arts, and the argument I made was:
 

 

I dunno what you have in mind here.  

 

Well to throw a monkey wrench in this whole argument.  (and I do understand what you are saying) Now that 6th has expanded the basic free maneuvers with things as choke, you can probably represent all martial maneuvers through skill levels. But this is only valid in 6th.

[HeroGM]

And HSMA discusses using powers as martial arts.

 

Always more then one way to skin that cat

[Ninja-Bear]

7 hours ago, HeroGM said:

And HSMA discusses using powers as martial arts.

 

Always more then one way to skin that cat

Yup. But as always that is always GM discretion.

[Duke Bushido]

I've got a lot of rep to hand out to you folks on this thread, but unfortunately I've burned it all up; Christopher and a couple other folks had a slew of good input all over the board today!  And here I went to work, like a sucker....

 

Keep posting and bumping this thread!  I'll remember! 

 

 

[Nekkidcarpenter]

On 11/26/2020 at 8:36 PM, Duke Bushido said:

Martial Sneer:  3 pts --------+1/+2-----------Must Follow Presence Attack; Target falls.

This is a fantastic story I missed from back then.  I was searching the boards for examples of great Presence Attacks, and this popped up.

[HeroGM]

Now go away or I shall taunt you some more.

 

 

I need to take a day and go back and look at old threads.

[Duke Bushido]

Thanks for bumping this, Gents!

 

I've still got to pass out all that rep!

 

 

[schir1964]

Fascinating discussion to say the least. (8^D)

[HeroGM]

12 minutes ago, schir1964 said:

Fascinating discussion to say the least. (8^D)

 

Beware - my cat knows Kung Fu 😁

[HeroGM]

 

 

 

In all seriousness this is why I love the "Non-Martial Art" Art, i.e. flat combat levels. Yes this could be brought as a Comic-Book style or a bunch of mixed M.A. maneuvers and knowledge skills. Either or all honestly work. It's just at some point you have a long list of maneuvers and K.S: Martial Art Name and not enough sheet 🥴

[Ninja-Bear]

6 hours ago, HeroGM said:

 

 

 

In all seriousness this is why I love the "Non-Martial Art" Art, i.e. flat combat levels. Yes this could be brought as a Comic-Book style or a bunch of mixed M.A. maneuvers and knowledge skills. Either or all honestly work. It's just at some point you have a long list of maneuvers and K.S: Martial Art Name and not enough sheet 🥴

Ha, the writer of this comic doesn’t understand Jeet Kune Do. Then again some of its proponents don’t either.