character progression for a hero (not superhero) game

[gavicus]

I'm looking at starting a steampunk campaign. I have a storyline under construction, and I'm really excited about it.

 

The players are coming from a D&D game. All the characters in D&D are superheroes. I realize that a first level wizard is a crappy superhero, but give them a few levels, and they're all superhuman. Anyway, in D&D you are invested in your character, largely because of anticipation. Next level or in a few levels, you get this power you've been waiting for, etc.

 

Now D&D just won't work for my story. I've played Hero before and love the way it's built. My favorite thing about the system is that it's so open-ended. Sadly, the worst thing about the system is that it's so open-ended.

 

So too late to make a long story short: How do you guys make character progress interesting in a Hero System game for non-super characters?

[Duke Bushido]

3 hours ago, gavicus said:

How do you guys make character progress interesting in a Hero System game for non-super characters?

 

 

Depends. We've got a few discussions on this already, but for the life of my I can't recall and thread titles, so I can't give you any links. 

 

Still, you've got a couple of options.

 

One that I have found helps ease people in from D&D  (and I don't usually do it, but there are always those folks that just _have_ to have this "feature" of a broken system):

 

Study their character type.  Consider the types of skills and abilities (including Skill Levels with various weapons and other equipment), both those the characters already have and those that characters "of that type" are likely to have.

 

 

Build a "level."  That is, a couple of character points worth of an appropriate characteristic, a couple points of STUN, a pip or two of BODY, a couple of +x to skills on a short list, perhaps a new skill, maybe two.   Total that up in terms of character point cost.  Hoard their EP-- well, assign it, but they don't "spend it" as is typically done in HERO, and when they hit the cost of that level you built, they have "advanced a level" and get all that goodness.

 

Do something slightly bigger for each 5th or 10th level (or both; why not?  [/Ziodberg] ) just to give those "milestones" a special feeling.

 

 

If you just want to go with standard HERO progression, well that's just a matter of the XP you award and when and how you let them spend it.  I find a lengthy session can run from 2-5 XP per character, sometimes a bonus one here or there for certain characters for certain reasons, like spectacular resolution to situation, etc.  Typical sessions run 1-3 XP.   When you're buying equipment with money, there's nothing left to spend EX on but Characteristics and Skills, so they ramp up pretty quickly (well, magic guys, depending on your system, can often buy more magic-guy-related stuff).

 

Another nifty thing is to simply allow both.  Allow them to spend as they please, or hoard for a "Level."  Yes: you and I know that the end result is identical: they can by the level piece by piece, but something about die-hard D&D players keeps them from grasping that until they've played _a while_.

 

 

To make it interesting, well that depends on both what they are used to and what they expect.  If they expect the D&D "I've leveled up!," then stick with it.  It doesn't really hurt anything (unless you give out _too much_ CON, STUN, BODY-- that can grow lesser gods in no time).

 

You can require training in a skill before they are allowed to spend points on that skill-- you can handle that off-table / bluebook if you like, but the character is going to go somewhere to learn how to be better at something, etc.

 

Regarding training:

 

My players aren't really keen on taking time away from the adventure to hunt up a talented trainer (and I'm not a big Pokemon fan), so we do something a little different:

 

Every time a Character makes a certain Skill roll by 5, I make a tick.  When he makes it be 8 or more, I make 2 ticks.  When he gets to 10 ticks, he is able to spend an EP or two on improving that skill.  (twenty ticks for a combat skill level unless it is for one specific weapon or one specific maneuver with a class of weapon).  I look at it as "on the job training."  When you do something really well, you are aware of the difference in what you've done versus what you usually do.  You strive to repeat that success.  That's kind of what we're pretending to emulate here.  It works.  Anyone who wants to improve at half the number of ticks pays double the EP cost.  Anyone who wants to improve after one tick pays triple (only happened once, in many, many years, and he was not unhappy, as he knew this going in).

 

I find this helps keep "banked" XP under control and still keeps the rate of progression sensible.  A short story arc done in six sessions can see a player finding that he has twenty or so XP to spend!  If he wants to dump them into one thing, all at once, it gets a bit ugly until the other characters kind of catch up.  The training systems help control that, both by regulating the speed at which someone can increase a skill and, for the impatient, controlling the amount of XP out there to spend.  Obviously, you can alter the "tick points" as you see fit.

 

Learning a new skill usually requires training, though I do allow a character to buy a 6 or less familiarity (yes; 6.  Again, a control against advancement to Godhood in a few short sessions) for 4 pts, which he can then improve up normally (for what it's worth, a "3" always gets a tick, even if it's not a succeed-by-five situation).

 

Like I said, you can alter the ticks: I have run shorter campaigns with the ticks at 5 and 10; longer ones with them at 15 and 30.

 

 

[bluesguy]

As for the training, my world has a wicked monsoon season and there is a separate month in the year when all kinds of crazy/random things can happen.  These points in time on the calender make natural places for training.

 

Also sometimes if one player has a set of skills that another player wants to learn they will tell me about it and over a period of time the 2nd player can buy those skills.

[Tjack]

   There is a way but it’s a LOT of work for the GM. Have the training sequences involve interesting NPC’s.  A player wants to learn Martial Arts...give them Chuin from the Remo Williams movie (“You move like a baboon with two club feet!” “The seasons move faster!”) or Ping Hai from Kill Bill. If they want to learn “thief” skills give them either a Cary Grant ex-cat burglar or a Baldrick from Blackadder looking second story man. 
   You get the idea, make the introduction of the teacher and the training of the student part of the tapestry of the game. Perhaps the mad scientist obsessed with the power of Steam who ends up instructing a player in the sciences also tells them of other scientists who have mysteriously disappeared.  These NPC’s can become great storytelling devices.
  Have episodes open on a teaching sequence with one of the players just to set the mood “ You’re all in the gymnasium watching Bertrand spar with Master Chuin...
    This will be a lot more fun in the long run than just them endlessly repeating “My character trains for three weeks and I spend my points.”

[archer]

World of Warcraft has a level system but every so many levels, you get an additional power out of a choice of three potential powers.

 

You could try something like that. Give out less experience than you normally would each session and bank up that additional experience to pay for that occasional power-up.

 

Build a choice of three power-ups which fit thematically with whatever role the PC is built for. Give each of the power-ups a name. For example, the fighter player could be choosing between Blademaster, Tough Guy, and Bouncer. Each is worth six real points and typically has a characteristic, skill, or skill bonus plus one power (with limitations).

 

Blademaster

1 Ambidexterity -1 of Off Hand penalty removed

2 Acrobatics (-1/2 only while holding a bladed weapon. "Look guys, I'm Errol Flynn!")

3 Defense Maneuver I (no character is considered to be attacking "from behind")

 

Tough Guy

6 Combat Luck +3PDr/+3EDr

 

Bouncer

2 +5 PRE (-1 not for defense)

2 +3 CON (-1/2 only to resist being stunned)

2 Off-Hand Defense (usually an improvised weapon in bar fights  )

 

After they bank up the six points to pay for that power-up, come up with three new power-ups and let them work toward that.

 

The time after that put in one of the three power-ups they didn't pick the first time and a power-up they didn't pick the second time and a new one.

 

The time after that, tell them they're working toward a break-through power-up. Have that one be worth 12 or 15 points or whatever works for you. After they reach that, go back to the six point power-ups for a while.

 

A thief character might be working toward an infrared vision power-up, a spider-climbing power-up, and something else. A mage toward various spells, and a cleric toward whatever the hell that clerics do in your campaign.

[LoneWolf]

While Hero system does not have levels that does not mean the characters cannot grow.  The important thing is how much experience you give out.  The one thing that is different about a Fantasy Hero campaign is that most adventures take multiple games which means if you use the guidelines in the book it progresses at a much lower rate.  Typically our “Adventure lasts around 4-8 sessions to fully play out.  To fix this we give out experience on a per session basis not a per adventure.  At the end of the adventure we usually also give out a few extra points as a bonus.  This works out to getting somewhere around 1-3 XP per session, and usually about 5-10 as the bonus at the end of the story. 

[gavicus]

These are great ideas, guys. Thanks for your help.

[Chris Goodwin]

While it's not my preferred style personally, there's no reason you can't run a fantasy game at a superheroic level or with whatever rate of progression you'd like.  If it's what your players want, and you're fine with it, then go for it.