Increased knockback and Martial arts

[Zarthose]

    Hi guys, if I made a character with a 40 strength and used a fast attack ( +2 DC) and +1 HTH damage class....The norm is 11DC and roll 3D6 to subtract for knockback.

 

The question I have is if his strength is bought with an advantage 2x knockback(+1/2), am I reducing his MA damage to 2DC but doubling his body for knockback to reflect his advantage on his Str...or am I figuring it as 8DC strength ( thus 16DC for knockback) + 3dc from MA...since the MA did not pay for the advantage? A third possibility is I have to pay for the advantage on the MA as well...but now that is  crazy expensive, so expensive, its an unplayable option
 

  For comparison I bring up lets say HTH attack. Buy 2D6 and Armor piercing , on that guy an unmodified 40 strength ( 8DC) now would have 2DC AP+ 6 1/2 DC for a total of 8 1/2 DC that is all AP...effectively getting a choice of base damage or AP damage while only applying the actual costs to 2DC of powers. 

[unclevlad]

When you add damage to another attack that includes an advantage, you have to recompute the added damage.

 

So, it'd be 10d6.  Determine the BODY normally, then double it;  then roll 3d6 and subtract.  Under most circumstances;  there's other factors that can change KB, like hitting a flier.

 

I'll also note that in damage terms, this is a 15 DC attack, if your campaign has DC limits.  Second:  it's probably not a great idea to combine martial strikes with increased KB on your STR;  why diminish the impact?  Increased KB is *bloody* expensive;  not only is it 20 points but it's taking your END from 4 to 6.  It's expensive because it's a form of secondary attack at times...when you can wallop someone into a wall.  Realize:  you'll rarely get any benefit from those 20 points.  10d6 means 10 BODY;  -3d6 means you subtract 10 on average.

 

The AP computation is correct.  If I'm planning an advantaged HTH attack, I build the STR, the HTH, and the martial maneuvers and DCs to preferably a consistent number (say, Fast Strike and Counterstrike, with a block to get to 10 points), then I want to get all the damage that doesn't have the advantage, to make for whole dice.  IOW:

 

STR 30:  6 DCs

HA:  2D6 AP  

then with martial maneuvers that can use the HA, I would prefer a total of 4 DCs, or 9 DCs in a game with high damage caps.  That's a total of 10 DCs from STR and martial maneuvers, or 8d6 AP...so it's a 10d6 AP attack.

 

If I have maneuvers doing different damage (Fast Strike and Offensive Strike) I'll set things up for the one I expect to use most.

 

So....secondary thoughts.

1.  Double KB is useful but QUITE expensive.

2.  If you want it, I'd *strongly* recommend buying it as a Naked Advantage, NOT as a modifier on your basic STR.  Bought as a modifier, it *always* applies, by the rules.  It isn't optional...and it does, as noted, increase your END.  If it's a Naked Advantege, it's listed as a separate power you can use or not.  The limitation is that a Naked Advantage is considered a Special Power, and therefore it can't be included in a multipower or VPP.

3.  If you really like the double KB, then you probably don't want to buy the martial arts.  Instead, buy a 3d6 HA.  You can then buy CSLs;  at this point you've only got 1 attack, so 2, 2 point CSLs with your strikes gives you the Fast Strike +2 OCV.  

I'm not arguing against the martial maneuvers;  I use a ton of em.  It's the cancelling effect on the double KB that becomes the problem, and it's a lot of points.

[Duke Bushido]

 

 

First off, I want to state that I am in agreement with almost everything Vlad offered:  it's a lot of expense for little regular utility.

 

 

 

39 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

When you add damage to another attack that includes an advantage, you have to recompute the added damage.

 

So, it'd be 10d6.  Determine the BODY normally, then double it;  then roll 3d6 and subtract.  Under most circumstances;  there's other factors that can change KB, like hitting a flier.

 

I'll also note that in damage terms, this is a 15 DC attack, if your campaign has DC limits.  Second:  it's probably not a great idea to combine martial strikes with increased KB on your STR;  why diminish the impact?  Increased KB is *bloody* expensive;  not only is it 20 points but it's taking your END from 4 to 6.  It's expensive because it's a form of secondary attack at times...when you can wallop someone into a wall.  Realize:  you'll rarely get any benefit from those 20 points.  10d6 means 10 BODY;  -3d6 means you subtract 10 on average.

 

The AP computation is correct.  If I'm planning an advantaged HTH attack, I build the STR, the HTH, and the martial maneuvers and DCs to preferably a consistent number (say, Fast Strike and Counterstrike, with a block to get to 10 points), then I want to get all the damage that doesn't have the advantage, to make for whole dice.  IOW:

 

STR 30:  6 DCs

HA:  2D6 AP  

then with martial maneuvers that can use the HA, I would prefer a total of 4 DCs, or 9 DCs in a game with high damage caps.  That's a total of 10 DCs from STR and martial maneuvers, or 8d6 AP...so it's a 10d6 AP attack.

 

If I have maneuvers doing different damage (Fast Strike and Offensive Strike) I'll set things up for the one I expect to use most.

 

So....secondary thoughts.

1.  Double KB is useful but QUITE expensive.

2.  If you want it, I'd *strongly* recommend buying it as a Naked Advantage, NOT as a modifier on your basic STR.  Bought as a modifier, it *always* applies, by the rules.  It isn't optional...and it does, as noted, increase your END.  If it's a Naked Advantege, it's listed as a separate power you can use or not.  The limitation is that a Naked Advantage is considered a Special Power, and therefore it can't be included in a multipower or VPP.

3.  If you really like the double KB, then you probably don't want to buy the martial arts.  Instead, buy a 3d6 HA.  You can then buy CSLs;  at this point you've only got 1 attack, so 2, 2 point CSLs with your strikes gives you the Fast Strike +2 OCV.  

I'm not arguing against the martial maneuvers;  I use a ton of em.  It's the cancelling effect on the double KB that becomes the problem, and it's a lot of points.

 

 

I also want to point out that his Naked Advantage comments are a solid recommendation.

 

 

Where I don't one-hundred percent agree isn't really a quibble with what he offered, but something he didn't really go over:

 

Sure; you've really got to both set up a situation _and_ get a little bit lucky to bounce an opponent off of  an object to get that extra die or two of damage; he's absolutely right there.

 

However, there is another aspect to double knockback that has a lot of overlooked value, particularly at those tables where combat monsters and damaged vectors reign supreme:

 

There's a nifty tactical advantage beyond the small chance of dishing out another die or three of damage.  You can completely screw up a coordinated attack.  You can screw up range modifiers, and that gets really fun if you can do it after a character has assigned his skill levels. 

 

Most martial artists and bricks are hands-on with regard to damage delivery.  knocking them back repeatedly means that they are coming in at penalty already (knock them back enough that they have to take a movement-induced penalty to attack again, etc) and depending on SFX, you set off a lot of END-using triggered attacks and not have to worry as much about getting tagged.

 

And that flying guy?  The one without the powerful ranged attack?  It's fun to watch him yo-yo back and forth across the map, wasting half-phases on getting back into range, etc.  Those speedsters with "Flight: only while touching a surface?"  Knock them all the way across town!  It's awesome!

 

Sure, these are extremes, and require some significant BODY damage and some great rolls, etc, but I promise that they tend to come into play more often than any additional damage.  And as a GM, let me tell you with the honesty of personal experience that the GM whose memory fails to recall that little tidbit is quite likely to have his ambush go way differently than he planned.   

 

 

Again: Vlad isn't wrong; not even a little bit.

 

But there are other things to consider with Double Knockback besides the potential to add a die or two of damage.

 

 

 

[unclevlad]

I agree with the tactical aspect...BUT if that's what your target is, then you don't want to dampen it by using martial strikes.  Your mean damage on 10d6 is 10 BODY;  it's 50-50 to roll 11+ on 3d6.  Similarly, fine, you knock the flying guy...but will it be enough to get any range mod?

 

And it is 20 points here....I think that's my bigger issue.  Consider...not even a naked advantage, but a 2d6 HA with double KB.  Cost...12.  END, 1.  Net damage in this build, even keeping the 3 DCs from martial strikes is 11 DCs (STR and martial) --> 7d6, +2d6 for the HA is 9d6.  Or smoothing things...half advantages like 3 DCs...add another martial DC for 12 DCs, and you have a 10d6, double KB attack.

 

There's a few sides to consider...some separately, some in the combination.  There's a famous line from Eddington I've been known to misquote, but this is the real one:

“We used to think that if we knew one, we knew two, because one and one are two. We are finding that we must learn a great deal more about ‘and.”  Here, we actually need to consider each "one" (effective use of double KB, effective HTH damage construction) as well as what the "and" does.

 

(OK, it's a line mathematicians learn to love intimately, because "and" can get...really weird.  But sometimes lesser scholars can find its core truth.)

 

 

 

<ducks and runs to make dinner...........>

[unclevlad]

Nasty, evil, technically legal but highly abusive trick...

 

VPP:  5 Real, 6 active;  No skill roll (+1), No time (+1), HAs and HKAs only (call it -1/2).  Cost:  13 points.

 

Why?  HA, 1 pip, is 2 points.  6 active means you can put advantages up to +2...but can put *anything* you can convince the GM to allow within your power set.  This includes special effects, so it can target PD or ED...or AVAD and NND.  Including AVAD, Does Body.  Can include limitations like Reduced Penetration for when you *don't* want to rip them a new one...or make it a 1 pip HKA (against PD or ED again) when you do.  You've got Autofire and Damage Over Time if you can convince your GM...but even if not, being able to adjust special effects and other advantages and limitations, is really nice.  Yes, you can consider Variable Special Effects, but that doesn't get you the AVADs, and it *does* lower your damage, according to HD.  For just adjusting special effects, this does not.

 

The DCs don't change on the HA;  the damage dice will, of course.  The HKA adds 1 DC.  For the martial artist type, the cost may well go to next to nothing...you don't have to buy Nerve Strike or Killing Strike, and in fact, it's probably inefficient to buy Nerve Strike because STR does not apply.  It does apply, here.  (Obviously this depends on how much you bought your STR.)  

 

The abuse is that you're using a plausible, but very exploitable rule:  all the STR, and all the DCs, inherit the qualities of the HA.  This is just doing it in a dirt-cheap way that, beyond the points, has no downside that I can see.  Well, other than perhaps getting a nasty evil Rules Lawyer reputation...........

[Hey I Can Chan]

 

4 hours ago, unclevlad said:

The abuse is that you're using a plausible, but very exploitable rule:  all the STR, and all the DCs, inherit the qualities of the HA.

 

The HA still lowers the overall DCs due to the HA's Advantages, though, as per Adding Damage To Attacks With Advantages (E62 153). 10 DCs become 5 DCs when a +1 Advantage is applied to them, for instance. So while the HA permits STR 30 and the associated 4 DCs to inherit the HA's Advantages, there's essentially an inheritance tax of 5 DCs. (Reader, you may have already been aware of this. I'm including it more for myself and hoping someone will correct me if I'm wrong—I'm still learning this edition.) Nonetheless, that's a significant amount of versatility packed into 13 points.

 

However, isn't the really abusive part of the VPP the fact that the character can pick for the HA smaller-value Advantages each Phase so his DCs don't suffer a needless slashing as they would from a HA with the Advantages Variable Special Effect (any; +½) and Variable Advantage (+2; +4)? I mean, I get why a character would want that, but it's weird to think that the real and serious benefit of the character's VPP over the Variable Advantage Advantage is that the character can opt to be even less versatile.

 

 

[unclevlad]

1 hour ago, Hey I Can Chan said:

 

 

The HA still lowers the overall DCs due to the HA's Advantages, though, as per Adding Damage To Attacks With Advantages (E62 153). 10 DCs become 5 DCs when a +1 Advantage is applied to them, for instance. So while the HA permits STR 30 and the associated 4 DCs to inherit the HA's Advantages, there's essentially an inheritance tax of 5 DCs. (Reader, you may have already been aware of this. I'm including it more for myself and hoping someone will correct me if I'm wrong—I'm still learning this edition.) Nonetheless, that's a significant amount of versatility packed into 13 points.

 

However, isn't the really abusive part of the VPP the fact that the character can pick for the HA smaller-value Advantages each Phase so his DCs don't suffer a needless slashing as they would from a HA with the Advantages Variable Special Effect (any; +½) and Variable Advantage (+2; +4)? I mean, I get why a character would want that, but it's weird to think that the real and serious benefit of the character's VPP over the Variable Advantage Advantage is that the character can opt to be even less versatile.

 

 

 

To start with:  yes, it does lower the dice you'll roll for damage.  But only if you apply an advantage.  You can tweak the SFX to target PD or ED, and potentially exploit a limitation or complication.  But, yes.  If you have 12 DCs of damage elsewhere, then adding Double KB through this HA would mean you drop it to 8 dice.  But remember, 8d6 with double KB *is* a 12 DC attack.  As Duke pointed out, sometimes this can be advantageous.  If it won't be?  Pick something else.  And remember that you can take AVAD versus Power Def, Mental Def, or Flash Def for +1...and NND against those for +1/2....by the rules.  (The GM may well make them MORE expensive here.)  So that's 8 dice...28 STUN on average.  You can do NND vs. life support like vacuum, extreme heat, or extreme cold for +1.  And you can switch it up from round to round.

 

The abusive part is more complex.  Yes, quite a bit is that there's greater flexibility in the VPP because you don't have to apply anything if you don't want to, and you are getting the advantage of Variable SFX without the liability.  However, you can also take limitations if you like...specifically, Reduced Penetration.  If you're running hero-types and killing is frowned upon, Red Pen can be your best friend.  It makes more sense if you narrow the benefits;  I have a fondness for electromagnetic SFX, so the limits defined by the power set might be:

 

--versus PD or ED (electrical)

--AP and KA are vs. PD, using something akin to a magnetic force field focused down

--double KB is a big ol' fist...magnetics, most likely

--Red Pen is magnetic

 

So I'm not including any AVADs.  I can also drop the active cost to 5, which means the control cost drops to 2.  Saves a bit.

[Hugh Neilson]

The key tactical advantage I see is that even 0" Knockback (so 50/50 with average damage on 10d6) knocks the target prone.  That's half DCV until the target uses a half phase (or Acrobactics) to stand up (reorient for the flyers).  And they have used a half phase.  That Brick?  Well, a half phase to stand up means he can use the remaining half phase to move OR attack, unless he wants to try a Move By (halving his STR) or Move Through.

 

But consider the MA build you choose.  You can make a perfectly fine Martial Artist with limited or no actual martial maneuvers.

 

A Multipower of Flexible slots of OCV, DCV and limited STR is a fine replacement for maneuvers that only change OCV, DCV and damage.

 

It also increases your Grab, Trip, Disarm, Escape, etc. strength

 

You can always buy those Martial Maneuvers that suit the character, such as those with the effects above.  You can still use your Multipower, and reduced knockback is not an issue on attacks that don't do Knockback anyway.

[Zarthose]

   Thank you for the input. The current game I am running has no damage cap, and the intended user is a NPC...so cost and effectiveness do not play a part. This is more about their theme. Also, everyone at the school ( setting) is expected to learn MA...and multipowers are limited severely in game. This is to prevent blurring of roles...I didn't want everyone to fly/be invisible, have 7 different attacks ect. 

 

  So it looks like a naked advantage would be the way to go, or a 1 pip HTH 2x knockback...which would convert all DC , but not always have to be on. 

 

I was just hoping for something that was not a cheesy dodge, or the worst buy possable

 

   

[Ninja-Bear]

I wanted to add a side note about KB and Martial Arts. I ran several shaw Brothers style games in 6th (Heroic level but with “powers”).  I use the 1”= 1m. Well my youngest didn’t like that he wasn’t getting to do KB. Rolling 3D6 is kinda hard. I changed that to Standard 2D6 BUT if you use 1m you are supposed to then x2 the result. (This is so you get the distance of 1”=2m and at first I didn’t realize this step either.) Well the bottom line is just rolling 2D6 and getting KB is FUN! And in my opinion very appropriate to the style of game i want to play.  It really added Some Chop sockey to the game. Obviously this isn’t for every style of game.