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Vitals hit location


Gandalf970
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1 hour ago, Gandalf970 said:

Where exactly is the vitals location on the hit location chart?  Is it the throat, heart or brain?

 

Hero System 5th Ed Revised pg 415.

“Vitals” is defined as any particularly delicate or vulnerable area on the body; this can include the groin, the heart, a large artery, or many other areas. The GM should choose whatever effect is most appropriate for the attack and the situation."

 

I'm a Fred player so that is what you get :whistle:

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8 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

I have a skewed response, living in the south, where "vitals" means "guts," so I tend to interpret it as intestine, kidneys, bladder, etc-- anything below the ribcage and between the hips, really.

 

Well.........  obviously they ain't from the south :nya:

 

And the chart has "12 - Stomach" for that :nonp:

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Everyone always giggles about it being to the groin (and judging by how the chart is laid out, its a reasonable guess) but yeah its meant to be anywhere particularly vulnerable and deadly.

 

I think the chart needs to be seriously rewritten, because 13 is too near the hot spot most likely to roll range of 3d6 making it very likely to come up when it ought to be less likely in a random roll.  It should be pushed to the end (17-18) and stomach should be moved as well.  Two high stun areas are really close to the middle of that 3d6 bell curve.  Feet, which nobody really wants to hit anyway, are waaayy out on the tail end.

 

Something like this would work better:

 

3-5 ... Head

  6  ... Lower Leg

  7  ... Stomach

  8  ... Upper Arm

9-10 . Chest

 11  ... Shoulders

 12  ... Thighs

 13  ... Lower Arm

 14  ... Hands

 15  ... Lower Leg

16-17  Vitals

 18  ... Feet

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I'll have to dig it up; we haven't used hit locations in _years_, but when last we did, I had re-done a hit location based on the Rule of Nines.

 

For those unfamiliar with the Rule of Nines, is a tool for quick-and-dirty triage assessment to determine the extent of tissue damage for burn victims.

 

X2604-R-27.png

 

 

 

Using this chart (well, a different one, but mathematically, they're all the same) and the actual probabilities of any given number on 3d6, I came up with something we liked a bit better, and used routinely, but honestly, we just got _bored_ with the Hit Location mechanic, period.  In addition to slowing down an already fairly ponderous combat system, it made things generally more grisly than we care for.

 

 

 

Edit to add:

 

Obviously, it wasn't just completely random.  I had weighted it a bit to lean more toward the chest / torso area (center of mass and what any reasonably practiced person would be aiming for, at least at range) and the head.  That entire "roughly twenty percent of your strikes will hit the groin" thing was just nonsense unless you're fighting Bobby Hill. )

 

 

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Well, I may _never_ find the finished ones (ended up making them for standing, left/right cover, waist-down cover, and prone, as well as targeting modifiers for ranged and hand-to-hand / melee (ranged pictured below)), but I _did_ find a rough draft of the one that I started from to make the others.

 

I don't know if it will help anyone's idea juice get flowing, or even if anyone is remotely interested, but do take just a moment to note that my chart features a less-than-half-a-percent chance to randomly "nut-shot" an opponent.  That makes a _huge_ difference in keeping combat from devolving into a bunch of stale and immature jokes....

 

 

Quote

ROLL                                                      STUNx         BODYx        N STUN                Targeting modifier

 

3 = Foot (roll L/R*)                                 x1               x1/2              x1/2                       -8OCV

4 = Thigh (roll L/R*)                              x2               x1                  x1                           -5 OCV

5 = Thigh (roll L/R)                                x2               x1                  x1                           -5 OCV

6 = Shin (roll L/R*)                                x2               x1/2             x1/2                       -6 OCV

7 = Thigh (roll L/R*)                             x2                x1                 x1                           -4 OCV

8 = “Vitals”                                              x2                x2.5                x1.5                     -8 OCV

9 = Abdomen                                         x3                x1                 x1.5                        -6 OCV

10 = Chest                                               x3                x1                 x1                           -3 OCV

11= Chest                                                 x3               x1                  x1                           -3 OCV

12 = Shoulder (roll L/R*)                    x1.5            x1                  x1                           -5 OCV

13 = Head                                                 x5                x2                 x2                          -8 OCV

14 = Upper Arm (roll for L/R*)        x2                x1                  x1/2                      -6 OCV

15  = Forearm (roll for L/R*)             x2               x1/2              x1                           -6 OCV

16 = forearm (roll for L/R*)               x2               x1/2              x1                           -6 OCV

17 = Hand (roll for L/R*)                     x1               x1/2              x1/2                       -8 OCV

18 = Groin                                                 x2              x1/2**          x1                           -9 OCV

 

 

Note that the OCV modifiers given assume ranged attacks.  Hand-to-hand or melee OCV modifiers will be determined by the GM on a case-by-case basis.

 

* indicates that you will probably have 2 of this body part, and should roll odd/even to determine which one is hit.

** if an attack to this location is done with an edged weapon that penetrates DEF, change BODY multiplier to x2 and target _is_ Bleeding, period.  The femoral artery is a nasty, nasty place to get cut.

 

 

This was the rough draft from which I based all the others.

 

If you had a character with a tail, then ask if it was "leg-sized" or "arm sized."  If it was leg-sized, any roll to location 5 you rolled a d3 instead of a d2; on a 3, you got hit in the tail.  If it was arm-sized, repeat that d3 roll on location 4.

 

If you had wings, make a d3 location check on location 11-12 for large wings; location 12 for smaller wings. 

 

If you were being attacked from behind, then make a "tail check" on all locations 4-7 for a "leg sized" tail; all locations 3-5 for a small one.

 

Large wings (from behind)  meant make a wing check on all locations 10-12, and small wings got checked on locations 11-12.

Note that, for sci-fi games (we never used hit locations in Supers games.  It just felt wrong), a "wing hit" could result in a hit to mechanical wings instead of the character.  Still, that's bad news in itself.  ;)

 

Enough about that, though:

 

As I said, it's based (roughly) on the rule of 9s, and weighted for sensible shooting.  I split arms and legs into multiple locations because in our Heroic games, we do tend to use sectional armor quite a bit, and this eliminated the need for an "activation roll" type mechanic, particularly when said roll might allow an armored gauntlet to repeatedly defend a foot.  Characters are clearly far more flexible than I would have thought.  ;)  Also, as there is only about 55 percent _total_ to the rule of nines, and because of probability distribution with the dice, splitting those locations-- and making "vitals" a non-specific area of "something really important"-- and most importantly, by making the groin an actual location _separate_ from the vitals-- helped to reconcile things.  "Vitals" on this chart represent things generally found in the torso, like the lungs, the liver, the spleen, the heart, and the kidneys.  The groin is now the groin, and "low blow" has one hell of a steep modifier.  :lol:  

 

STUN multipliers were based on researching self-reported pain levels from various types of injury;  BODY multipliers were based on difficulty of treatment for certain kinds of wounds, the ability to field-treat certain types of wounds, and the final prognosis (including healing time) for the majority of serious injuries to the relevant parts of the body, with weight to the "original values" as printed in the original Fantasy HERO.

 

OCV modifiers were based roughly (very) on the rule of nines, and weighted toward their original values as given in Fantasy HERO _and_ just how often I wanted to hear players shout "I'm totally aiming for his grapes!"  Then I dropped it back down to a _slightly_ possible -9 (one lower than the requirement for a "critical hit" in our fantasy games at the time), because there may one day come a legitimate reason to have to aim for the grapes.

 

Feedback welcomed, so long as you understand that this was the rough draft of something that got (slightly) more refined, and that I'm probably not going to defend it particularly hard, because I don't expect it to work for a single soul outside of our group.

 

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People complain when using random hit locations that you hit the hands and arms a lot but... you should.  That should be primarily where you hit humanoid opponents, because that's stuff that's moving closest and at you.  Its pretty easy to hit the legs on most humanoids because they will tend to be planted on their legs, so they can't move them as much.  Honestly if anything the hit location penalties for a called shot are excessive.

 

I guarantee you that if I wanted to touch you on the head, I could do it 9 times out of 10 unless you used a block maneuver to stop me (put an arm up, etc).  Now granted, its harder to hit someone in the head if you want to do any kind of damage, but still, the principle applies: its just not that hard to do so... if you don't care what they do to you.

 

-8 to hit a head makes sense in a metagaming way: we don't want you to be able to hit the head very reliably; but it fails any sort of smell test in real life combat.  But then, in real life combat you have to rely on protecting yourself with blocking and dodging way more than Hero combat simulates as well.  Basically you're trying hard to not get hurt while looking for an opening in normal combat.

 

 

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9 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

People complain when using random hit locations that you hit the hands and arms a lot but... you should.  

 

Agreed.  Our hand-to-hand / melee location chart reflected that.  I kinda wish I had found it. Just for the compare/contrast, but such is life.

 

That chart was weighted toward upper body, and more so to hands and arms which, as you note, are moving both defensively and being thrown at you in attack.

 

As to the rest of what you said: also correct; it is a simulation.  At the end of the day, you have to decide just how far you want to carry that simulation and find that sweet or "good enough" spot thatcworks for you and tour group.  For us, our custom charts were great fun for a while, but eventually we decided we just preferred to not use hit locations at all (which put ua back to an activation roll for sectional armor, but such is life).

 

 

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But then, in real life combat you have to rely on protecting yourself with blocking and dodging way more than Hero combat simulates as well.  Basically you're trying hard to not get hurt while looking for an opening in normal combat.

 

I wonder if a possible solution to this is to let people sacrifice DCV to add to their OCV to hit locations.  Basically lose defense to add precision?  That is kind of what you do with a Brace maneuver.

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17 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

-8 to hit a head makes sense in a metagaming way: we don't want you to be able to hit the head very reliably; but it fails any sort of smell test in real life combat.

 

From everything I've heard and read from people who've been in actual (firearms) combat, basically anything outside of center of mass is almost a guaranteed miss in a real fight, and even aimed center of mass shots still tend to randomly hit the extremities.  

 

Edit to add:  When I'm at the pistol range shooting at a piece of paper, I control my breathing and movement, and shoot at my own pace.  In a real fight there's adrenaline, fear, snap decisions, and loss of technique due to all of those.  Even, for instance, a 50-yard jog before taking your place at the bench, otherwise still under controlled conditions at the range, can massively screw up your score.  

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From everything I've heard and read from people who've been in actual (firearms) combat, basically anything outside of center of mass is almost a guaranteed miss in a real fight, and even aimed center of mass shots still tend to randomly hit the extremities.  

 

Sure, at range.   But in melee its a bit different.  

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17 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I guarantee you that if I wanted to touch you on the head, I could do it 9 times out of 10 unless you used a block maneuver to stop me (put an arm up, etc).  Now granted, its harder to hit someone in the head if you want to do any kind of damage, but still, the principle applies: its just not that hard to do so... if you don't care what they do to you.

 

Up front, I totally allow that these are trained, experienced combatants.  However, that's not a valid refutation, because your characters are, too.

 

Before guaranteeing you're going to touch someone's head nine times out of ten, you ...

 

Never mind; I don't know how old you are; my apologies.

 

However, I remember watching this when I was a _much_ younger person.  Twenty-one head blows in ten seconds, opponent on the ropes.  Missed every single one of them:

 

 

 

17 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

-8 to hit a head makes sense in a metagaming way: we don't want you to be able to hit the head very reliably; but it fails any sort of smell test in real life combat. 

 

I don't know if you're familiar with Tyson Fury, but he's pretty good.  He also uses a fairly common style for taller people.  For what it's worth, his style is one of the reasons the shoulders are weighted (in the custom chart above) as easier to hit than the head:

 

 

 

Fury started with a block maneuver-- one-- but turned to dodges at the end (if you want to call that dodging.  Deflection would work fairly well to define that style, as could "actively using his OCV".

 

 

17 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

 

But then, in real life combat you have to rely on protecting yourself with blocking and dodging way more than Hero combat simulates as well.  Basically you're trying hard to not get hurt while looking for an opening in normal combat.

 

 

 

The attack roll is basically CV vs CV.  Unless you want a chart of individual maneuvers and stances that each player will select as his next move, then lay them down and hope they overlap in a meaningful way, there's really not a lot more you can do to simulate combat in _any_ system, really: at some point, it comes down to rolling dice and then ad-libbing the action.

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But would you characterize those fights as two guys slugging it out or one trying to hit another who is dodging and blocking?

 

In other words, is the difficulty due to the inherent difficulty of hitting someone in a location, or due to defensive maneuvering instead of attacking on the part of the defender?

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1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

But would you characterize those fights as two guys slugging it out or one trying to hit another who is dodging and blocking?

 

 

 

Oh, I am so glad you asked that, because there is a -- well, let's say there's some interesting psychological deception going on here that actually make-- 

 

well, you'll see. 

 

Ali wasn't just an amazing fighter: he was a _gifted_ fighter, and a lot of what he did is actively taught in boxing-- and even self-defense courses today. Ali was impressive because no one taught him this:  it wasn't really known as a thing to be taught.  He had an amazing, instinctual ability to take control of a fight no matter what was going on, and love him or hate him (I'm not a big fan of showboats), you have to respect him for the raw skill.  He wasn't like Mike Tyson: Sure, Iron Mike has skill; that can't be questioned.  But more than skill, he relies on raw power and speed, literally bludgeoning his opponents while they are still in the "okay, how are we going to engage?" stage.  Before Tyson, fighters danced and feinted a bit to get a measure of their opponent.  Tyson took advantage of that and went straight for the knockout.  It worked, mostly because he's one of the most physically powerful men ever to enter the ring.  Today, you see that Tyson-style openers are now the standard--

 

Like I said, things get studied.  Things that work get taught.

 

 

Getting back to Ali:

 

Ali is _neither_ dodging _nor_ is he blocking.

 

Watch the video again.  Hit the options button and reduce the speed.  The first combo, Ali is reacting-- call that a dodge if you will, but he really doesn't do anything that would give him a significant CV penalty, nor is he unable to counter at any point.  So, in HERO terms, not a dodge.  What he's doing is _taking a recovery_.   Watch again, slower:

 

Ali most definitely leans back and then darts sideways away from the opening 1-2, but he _doesn't stop dipping_.  That's critical; you'll see why in a minute.  He bobbles once,  one-and-half more times then something amazing happens:

 

His opponent strikes.  As Ali is moving, that is.  His opponent, who for all the world seems to be unleashing an unrelenting combo, has begun to _not_ strike Ali, but to _react_ to Ali: he is trying to anticipate Ali's location, failing, but that urge to strike forces his hand and he starts throwing punches at where Ali _was_, not where he _is_, or even where he is going to be.  From this point on, only blind luck will let him hit Ali in the head: Ali is in control of his opponent now, and can literally make him punch any spot Ali wants him to.  He flaunts it a bit toward the end.  You can see how _ridiculously vulnerable_ he has made himself, but it doesn't matter, because his opponent has fallen for the bait, and has stopped trying to anticipate him at all (And I have to tell you, it's really hard to anticipate a head weave.  I know nothing about martial arts; I have enjoyed watching lighter-weight boxing matches over the years, and scrapped steadily into my early thirties (literal scrap: street fights; bar fights, etc-- nothing professional), so while I am not an never was a pro, I can tell you that when your opponent starts all that head-bobbing stuff, back up.  If you're not going to throw a knee up, you're not going to get him.  If he's faster than you, don't throw a knee up.  

 

Sorry-- throwing a knee up in the hopes of popping him in the chin or face with your knee reduces the amount of room he has to bobble his head, giving you a better shot of tagging him with a fist.  Not a great one, but better than you had.

 

Anyway, if you're not going to throw a knee up-- and boxers can't--, then stop swinging, because all you are doing is burning energy.

 

And that guy was burning up some serious energy the entire time that Ali was, in all seriousness, _resting_; taking a recovery.  You saw how comfortable he was toward the end: the longer it went on, the more in control of his opponent he was, and it was beautiful.

 

 

So what would _I_ say Ali was doing?

 

He wasn't blocking, clearly.

 

He wasn't Dodging, because none of the penalties associated with Dodging were in play-- he was free to body blow his opponent any time he wanted to, but he didn't.  He wowed the crowd and caught his breath.

 

What he did was actively apply is DCV; he might have put a couple of skill levels into it, too, but going by the mandates of the HERO System maneuvers, he didn't use any of them.

 

 

Now the tall fighter in the second clip (Tyson) is a bit different: he opens / defends with an obvious block, starts to abort to another block but thinks better of it and -- well, there's no name for it that I am aware, but he uses a style fairly common to taller fighters, particularly if they aren't as wide as the heavyweights like Ali or Iron Mike: he turns _away_ from the punch as it comes forward, and once he is just inside it, he rolls back to face his opponent, causing their striking arm to be pushed wide, upsetting their timing _and_ making it cost more energy to recover from the punch.

 

If it were me, I would consider this pretty much the same thing Ali was doing: actively using his CV:  this is actually what's going on when "uh...  I rolled a thirteen.  Do I hit?" is happening on the table. Just because the GM failed to take the initiative to run with "So close!  Your fist blasts forward like it was rocket powered, dead-lined-up with his left cheekbone.  You see his eyes open a bit in recognition and he leans back, turning away-- suddenly his face is gone, and you feel your arm sliding full-extension across the back of his shoulder...."

 

Just because your GM has chosen not to do that does not mean that we need a mechanic, chart, or system for it:  this is what actively defending yourself-- that is, having a good DCV, and having skill levels with DCV looks like.  Think about it:  if it _doesn't_ look like this, then what we are modeling is two people standing dead-stock still in front of each, taking turns hitting each other, while DCV becomes some magical in the middle that swallows fists when the rolls are too high.

 

 

Now I will say this:  If you _want_ a mechanic for what you're seeing in either clip--

 

nah.  I really can't assign one to Ali any more than actually just _using_ his DCV, though I suppose the case could be made that after a successful "mind rape" roll he switched to his OCV instead.  Still, it's a pretty weak case....

 

At any rate, I would accept that the style of defense Tyson preferred in his clip was some limited form of Deflection: fisticuff-based headshots only, but I will also maintain that the build isn't necessary to get what you saw in the clip.

 

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

In other words, is the difficulty due to the inherent difficulty of hitting someone in a location, or due to defensive maneuvering instead of attacking on the part of the defender?

 

 

Yes.

 

 

No; I'm not being funny: for the videos shown, there is only one valid question there.   The HERO System has that nifty chart that tells us what the modifiers and results are for each and every maneuver-- and a separate chart and more charts for the fancier "martial" ones.

 

No one in either of those videos suffered any of those penalties.  Neither of the guys having their heads aimed at found themselves at all unable to deliver a retaliatory blow at any moment they wanted to.  Both opted to hold for a better opportunity, as each of their opponents were riding the bonuses of the maneuvers that _they_ were executing.  The only thing the gentlemen on the ropes in both videos were doing was, in HERO terms "having a DCV score."

 

That's it.

 

Hitting someone in a location, in an actual fight, isn't easy, and it isn't easy because your opponent is going to stand there and let you do it.  Unless, of course, he has no DCV.

 

Look, I seem to be the only guy on this board who isn't active in martial arts in one way or another  (I abused the Hell out of my body when I was younger, and I had a _blast_ doing it.  As a result, however, I am no longer young enough, fast enough, or limber enough to bother even considering hand-to-hand combat, and instead go down to the hunting club to practice shooting people who are trying to hit me in the head.  At this point in my life, it's better suited for my defense needs. ). 

 

That being said, I figure there's a reasonable chance that you are involved in martial arts, too.  So find a sparring partner, and square off.  See how many times out of ten you can actually hit him in the head when he is actively using his DCV.  I have no idea what the total will actually be, but I guarantee it's not nine.

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

Look, I seem to be the only guy on this board who isn't active in martial arts in one way or another  (I abused the Hell out of my body when I was younger, and I had a _blast_ doing it.  As a result, however, I am no longer young enough, fast enough, or limber enough to bother even considering hand-to-hand combat, and instead go down to the hunting club to practice shooting people who are trying to hit me in the head.  At this point in my life, it's better suited for my defense needs. ). 

 

 

I am not, and have never been, active in martial arts in any shape, form, or fashion.

 

Nor do I have any experience in casual fights.

 

I broke my foot two years ago while walking. Not falling, tripping, accidentally kicking something, or anything else...just walking.

 

So I figure it's probably not a good point in my life to get into martial arts....

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Ali is _neither_ dodging _nor_ is he blocking.

 

See this is where we disagree, because he's clearly taking a defensive action, and not attacking on that phase. In hero terms, you cannot recover and use your DCV.  If you don't attack and actively attempt to avoid attacks, that's a dodge.

 

The guy taking those hits on his shoulders?  He's blocking.

 

However, I did go to some length to explain that if you're trying to do damage its harder to hit, but the principle holds true in real life combat: its not as hard to hit someone in a specific location as Hero makes it... IF you don't care about being hit yourself.

 

Let's break it down in Hero terms.

 

two untrained combatants face each other.  3 OCV vs 3 DCV.  One tries to hit the other in the hand (-6 OCV).  To do so, the attacker has to roll a 5- on 3d6 (or a 4.62% chance).  The head requires a straight natural 3 (.46% chance, less than once every 200 rolls).  This seems... reasonable to people?

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6 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

See this is where we disagree, because he's clearly taking a defensive action, and not attacking on that phase. In hero terms, you cannot recover and use your DCV.  If you don't attack and actively attempt to avoid attacks, that's a dodge.

 

 

 

 

I just want to make sure that I understand your position before I get into this(and in still at work and really cant get into it):

 

You are stating that using your DCV is a dodge, or at least that actively avoiding or taking action to aboid getting hit is by default a maneuver.  Is that correct?

 

If so, then does it not correlate that your natural DCV is a general "unhittableness" that is inherent within you, while standing stock still?  If this is so, does putting skill levels into DCV then make you more unhittable while perfectly still?

 

 

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You are stating that using your DCV is a dodge, or at least that actively avoiding or taking action to aboid getting hit is by default a maneuver.  Is that correct?

 

Um, dodge is a maneuver, its in the rules, you know?  You "use your DCV" simply by being awake and wanting to not get hit.  You add to that with a dodge maneuver, which takes a half phase.

 

If you're fighting and avoiding being hit, that's DCV.  If you do nothing but avoid being hit with extra effort, that's a dodge.

 

I cannot understand why this is even an issue or what it has to do with the problem of hit location penalties being too high.  Even if you want to pretend Ali is not using a dodge maneuver in that video, he's one of the best trained, highly capable combatants in human history so he's hardly a good example of routine combat in any case.

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Again, just for clarification--

 

and forgive my not picking this up sooner.

 

I arrive at work at six AM.  Today was...  not at good day.  I took an eleven minute "lunch break" at five-fifteen this evening.  I arrived home about twenty minutes ago.

 

 

Anyway--

 

Just to clarify:

 

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

  You "use your DCV" simply by being awake and wanting to not get hit. 

 

 

Are you or are you not stating that DCV is a matter of not wanting to be hit, period?  That is, are you stating that simply standing still, your ability to "not get hit" is based entirely on will power, requiring no physical attempt to not get hit?

 

 

I'm not trying to poke, point, or jeer.  I want to first understand where you are coming from and why.    That is all.  I don't see us having more than our typical disagreement on something otherwise. 

 

You have plenty of time, because right now, all I want is another shower and a bed.  Ugh.   It's been almost exactly twenty years since I've had a day as bad as this one.  One day you've got the Midas Touch, where everything you lay a hand on becomes gold.  Other days, you have the Ty-D-Bowl Touch, where everything you lay a hand on goes straight down the toilet....

 

 

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I think the core of the disagreement is that Duke believes Ali is not spending an action to Dodge (i.e. going all-out on avoiding being hit), but that his bobbing and weaving reflects his natural DCV, perhaps with skill levels applied (which also reflects a skilled combatant focusing more on avoiding being than on striking their opponent, but not to the exclusion of all else).  A boxer bobbing, weaving and occasionally Jabbing can be viewed, in Hero terms, as placing all levels in DCV and using a Defensive Strike (to get a bit of Stun in), while waiting for an opening to switch levels to OCV and lash land a powerful Offensive Strike.

 

By contrast, a Dodge would leave our character unable to counterattack for a couple of seconds, possibly as he better positions himself to deliver a strike.

12 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

If you're fighting and avoiding being hit, that's DCV.  If you do nothing but avoid being hit with extra effort, that's a dodge.

 

Between the two, we have skill levels on DCV and Martial maneuvers with DCV bonuses rather than OCV/Damage penalties.

 

12 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 Even if you want to pretend Ali is not using a dodge maneuver in that video, he's one of the best trained, highly capable combatants in human history so he's hardly a good example of routine combat in any case.

 

No, he's not.  He's more an example of a heroic level character fighting under cinematic reality rules.

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