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I'm trying to look at the difference in Cap but my eyes keep Wandaring.  

Multiform assumes nothing. The players and GM make the assumptions. Beast Boy/Changeling is the poster child of Multiform. Every form he takes has the same personality; Gar Logan's.

We have buried Liefield....YAH 2020 ends on a good note...

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Re: my various claims to know nothing about comics.


Thank you, Gentlemen.  I am sure no one will doubt me on that claim anymore.    :lol:



Thanks, Sundog, 


Though my opinion is that they are all multiform.  And they are all OIAID.


Bevause the only concrete difference between the two is the discount.

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11 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:


Three things:


First, I am a _terrible_ person to ask about Multiform.  I understand how it works, and how to use it, but at the end of the day, I personally don't believe it ever really needed to exist.  I have theories (some _way_ less crazy than others) about how a lot of newer things came to be over the years, but absolutely none of that is important.  Suffice it to say that the "only in identity X" thing has been around since the beginning, and given the massive price discounting, etc, of Multiform compared to that, I just don't think it's a thing that even _needed_ to be.  It exists; feel free to use it if that's what you feel the best choice is.


Second:  No; you don't actually have to become an entirely different person to qualify for multiform.  To use the Human Torch example that has been discussed here a bit:  


It is conceivable that you can build a character with all kinds of flame powers-- that is, powers with Flame as a Special Effect, and use multiform.  Even if you wanted him to have some of his flame powers (I'm going to keep saying "Flame Powers" because I can't say "firepowers" with a straight face.  Sorry) while he was a normal human.  You simple have the "normal human" portion pay for the powers he can use as a normal human:  perhaps a Fire Blast or even Flight.  You can still build the Multiform specifically to represent the engulfed-in-flames version of him, which would have either more powerful versions of these same powers, additional powers not available in the normal human version, or both.  The sky's the limit.  Given the 1/5 costing, the freakin' lunar orbit is the limit.


it's going to really be between you and the GM and how he sees it working.  As you can see from this conversation, those of us who have been with this game a long, long time can't really agree on what is "appropriate" for Multiform.  In those cases: go with the rules.  Look for the absolute essence of the rules, not all the verbiage.  the Multiform rules (ignoring the outrageous cost discounting) boil down to "one or more powers that are available in one or more form that are not available in one or more other forms."  If you can lock yourself out of something and into something else, and if changing back locks you out of that something else again, then yes: you can build it with Multiform.


Like I said, go right to the basics of the rules.  I assume (correct me if I'm wrong) that you're using 6e.


That being said:





That's it.  You can change into one or more forms, each with it's own abilities, personality, and Characteristics.


Your Human Torch will have, if built with a Multiform, at lest one ability that locks in and out based on the form he is in.  It could be a Characteristic; it could be a Power; it could be a Skill.  


5e, if you were wondering, says exactly the same thing-- the first paragraph-- and little bit more-- were just lifted whole-cloth from 5e.


it is almost identical to the wording from 4e, save the change from 4e's "a character with this Special power can have several different forms, each with its own personality, Characteristics, and Powers. 


Multiform didn't exist in 3e-- at least, not in the core rules.


Weirdly, it didn't come from 4e.  It came from 2e (sort of).  It was presented in the supplemental book Champions III, which barely beat Champions 3e to press.  In 2e, the first sentence states "This power allows a character to have several different forms, each with it's own Characteristics, Powers, and Disadvantages."


The difference here?


Two editions later, the word "personality" was added.


is it important?


Depends on who you ask.  Those that maintain "you have to have a different personality or you can't use Multiform" will certainly find it important.  However, that means that Captain Marvel is _not_ using Multiform to switch from a child to the world's mightiest mortal: he has the same personality.  That's why he was chose to be Captain Marvel (not in the movie.  The kid in the movie is self-centered dink who _becomes_  a worthwhile person. )  I don't think it's terribly important because it says multi-_form_, and not "scizophrenia." 


Well for those who believe that the change to drop the word Disadvantages and replace it with the word Personality means something, then does not dropping the word Disadvantages also mean something?


Moreover, the word "can" is still in there.  So are we saying that "he _can_ have this," as in "he might want to do it this way," or, put another way:  "He _can_, but he might not."  That is, we are saying _can_ as opposed to _must_.


At the end of the day, the defining trait of Multiform is access to at least one thing that at least one other form locks you out of.



As far as "getting the logic" of OIHID versus Multiform?  Stop trying.  There is no logic to it at all-- the difference between "multiform" and "alternate ID."  _Something_ makes that ID "alternate," after all.  it might be abilities; it might be Characteristics; it might be Powers; it might be Personality; it might be Disadvantages.  Why is that "alternate" not an additional hundred pounds of muscle and a hokey accent?  Until Champions III was published, it _was_.


Now if you're just opinion shopping, here's mine:


Multiform exists because enough people didn't make an intuitive leap from Only in _hero_ identity to "only in _appropriate_ identity," as so were flummoxed as to just how they could create the Hulk.  The Hulk is billed, more or less, as  hero, but at the time Champs III was written, he was mostly running around the American Southwestern Desert beating up Army guys  (and running over to New York once a month to do an Avengers thing before  racing back to the desert before anyone caught on). 


Any justification for why Multiform is more or less appropriate than OIAID that I have ever come across or even come up with on my own (yes; I used to try) sounds so forced as to be just a little bit embarrassing to pretend I accept that there is a difference.  My final decision on that for my own games was that Multiform has no place in my games and is just a points grab to start out at higher levels of each "alternate ID" than are possible with the OIAID  (which, if we would read as "only in _appropriate_ ID," we could STOP HAVING TWO NAMES FOR THE EXACT SAME THING!   oh.  Sorry about that.  I didn't realize I wasn't just thinking that part....).



Honestly, we just had a remarkably good discussion on this vey subject-- Multiform, I mean-- not too terribly long ago.   If I stumble across the thread, I will be happy to link you to it.  There may be something there that will help you make up your mind.



For all other questions you might have of me, I respectfully refer you to the first answer in this response:  I am a _terrible_ person to ask about Multiform.   :lol:



Awesome post.  I have been messing with 4th ed. Thank you very much.  It 'seems' to my mind that adding personality was likely a clarification for this very reason.  But that is just a guess.  In that case I personally would use multiform for Hulk, Dr. Jekyll / Hyde.  Even Dr. Blake / Thor.  Guys who basically become a different person, not just activate powers. Johnny just activates with 'Flame On' but the Torch and Johnny are the same 'guy'.  So he is OIHID, EC, MP something like these or a combo of them.


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Multiform has its uses but I think people pick it for unideal situations, such as this.  The Human Torch is a perfect example of Hero Form Only/Only in alternate ID.  He's still the same person, he just manifests a bunch of powers all the sudden, like turning on a light switch.  He doesn't turn into a cat, he doesn't morph into a huge robot from a truck.


However, note that he can use some of his powers without fully flaming on, like one hand acting as a welding torch or just manifesting heat for someone to stay warm, so he should have some powers outside HFO.

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13 hours ago, Sundog said:

Shazam/Captain Marvel may not be multiform, but Captain Mar-Vell - at least when he was bonded to Rick Jones - was. There you had two different personalities, skillsets and ideologies as well as powers.



And that I can agree on, even after Avenger's Forever when Rick was bound to Mar-vell's son.

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I must say you members are so far a very helpful and civil group.  Usually some troll would have manifested by now and poisoned the thread. Perhaps the dedication necessary to comprehend and utilize Hero effectivly appeals to a different breed of cat.  Or perhaps I have just been lucky so far but between this and my other inquiries you people have been top notch. 

Go ahead....pat yourselves on the back for me.

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4 minutes ago, Sicarius said:

I must say you members are so far a very helpful and civil group.  Usually some troll would have manifested by now and poisoned the thread. Perhaps the dedication necessary to comprehend and utilize Hero effectivly appeals to a different breed of cat.  Or perhaps I have just been lucky so far but between this and my other inquiries you people have been top notch. 

Go ahead....pat yourselves on the back for me.

Just to make you feel better





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In the older Fantastic Four comics, Johnny Storm's powers were fairly easy to deactivate, at least for certain villains.  Not as easy as in Twisted Toyfare Theater, where The Thing said "flame off" and Johnny fell to his death, but still easy.  Doctor Doom would build a wind cannon, and with one powerful gust, Johnny's fire went out.  Likewise if he went underwater, his fire didn't work.


To me, this is probably best represented by Only In Hero ID.  With some experience points, he might buy that off (I haven't seen the wind cannon stunt in a very long time).  He probably has the Power skill, and maybe has a couple of tricks that he can do in his normal ID.  He also can turn off his damage shield at will.

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29 minutes ago, HeroGM said:

Bits and pieces of it at that


Well, his legs (or body) can be on fire, and then he can pick things up with his hands.  In Secret Wars I remember him carrying a hot alien chick he met in his arms while half his body was on fire.  However, that doesn't necessarily mean that his Damage Shield (as in the power) was activated at the time.  I've never seen him carrying somebody around, and then get attacked by somebody else who gets burned on his fiery portion.  I think you'd be pretty safe in not worrying about that possibility.

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11 minutes ago, Greywind said:

He also can control the heat output. He shook a general's hand at least once while he was still flaming.

It seems like quite a bit of f/x leeway, some loose and free interpretations combined with a standard and fairly detailed set of powers is the perfect combination to describe The Torch. 

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