Talents

[Sicarius]

6E says Talents are built from skills and powers. The example build of Universal Translator in 6E1 Appendix is built using Detect Meaning of Speech 10 pts and Detect Meaning of Text 10 pts.  

Am I correct that this is from Powers-Sense Groups and uses Detect Table - 'A large class of things' ?

 

[HeroGM]

Yes

[Sicarius]

1 hour ago, HeroGM said:

Yes

Thank you!

[Christopher R Taylor]

The big 6th edition 2-volume ruleset has the builds for the talents in the back, I don't have anything handy right here but I think some of the later books do too

[unclevlad]

6 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

The big 6th edition 2-volume ruleset has the builds for the talents in the back, I don't have anything handy right here but I think some of the later books do too

 

6E1 447 to be specific.  I do not believe it's in Champions Complete, or at least the index isn't pointing me to a spot that has it.

[HeroGM]

It's not in Champions Complete.

[HeroGM]

Provided purely for Reference. That was one nice thing about Fantasy Hero 6e is it listed how the Talent was built in the description.

 

Grrrrrr

 

 

[HeroGM]

Ok, here we go.

[Sicarius]

4 hours ago, HeroGM said:

Ok, here we go.

Thats what I'm talkin bout!

[Christopher R Taylor]

I appreciate the builds behind the scenes, but do people really care or need them?  When my Player's Guide comes out I'll bundle the heromaker files together, including the talent builds but I wonder how much people even care.

[Spence]

8 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I appreciate the builds behind the scenes, but do people really care or need them?  When my Player's Guide comes out I'll bundle the heromaker files together, including the talent builds but I wonder how much people even care.

 

Very few would be my guess. 

 

The only time I looked at the Talent builds given in the book was when I wanted to create a couple for my mystery man Pulp game.  Once I realized they were just pre-packaged powers with names I didn't need to look again.

 

That was what always made me laugh at the crusade to eliminate Instant Change as a power.  If it was so uncomfortable they should have called it a Talent.  Hmmm will Hero v6.5 consist of Hero with all the Talents removed and relegated to being various builds of foundation powers?

[unclevlad]

8 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I appreciate the builds behind the scenes, but do people really care or need them?  When my Player's Guide comes out I'll bundle the heromaker files together, including the talent builds but I wonder how much people even care.

 

Not terribly often, but I do have one example:  "GPS" as a talent.  Bump of Direction is Detect Direction;  GPS extends this to direction and position.  So from "a single thing" to "a class of things."  4 points.

 

But by the same token, yeah, the fact that every talent can be taken as a power, suggests there's no need for talents at all as a separate section.  I will say it's cleaner overall;  I take several of the talents reasonably often.  And the talent names are easier to work with than the powers descriptions.  Also, some don't fit cozily into the powers structure.  Environmental Movement is defensive PSLs...but they apply to DCV *and* DC penalties.  Normal PSLs wouldn't.  Another is Combat Luck, if taken literally.  rDef with Hardened and Impenetrable, with complex limitations.  Reallly now....  6E1 342, Penetrating...Targets with impenetrable defenses ignore the effects of Penetrating.  Relative levels of attack and defense don't matter.  1 rPD + 1 rED Impenetrable negates 5 full DCs from a 10d6 Penetrating attack.  Can you spell "munchkin"?  It *does* spell out that it's hardened but that's less of an issue mechanically.

 

So...i really hope they don't delete the Talents section. 

[archer]

The powers don't necessarily accurately reflect what the talent does. Like Perfect Pitch being Detect Exact Pitch.

 

Most people I've heard of who have Perfect Pitch can replicate that perfect pitch with their voice.

 

Someone with Detect Hole in the Ground can't make a hole in the ground with that power and the person with Detect Gold cannot produce gold.

 

So someone with Detect Exact Pitch shouldn't produce an exact pitch, IMO.

 

At a minimum Perfect Pitch, if built with powers, should be Detect Exact Pitch plus Mimicry skill for producing the pitch.

[Duke Bushido]

An argument can be made that he is Detecting his own pitch, and adjusting himself accordingly, ultimately allowing him, with the means he has At hand, and perhaps practice, produce the perfect pitch.

 

Still, I personally felt the big push to break Talents into Powers was a bunch of self-serving bull snuckles to begin with, for most of the reasons mentioned already.

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

I think Duke the only reason why to break down Talents into Powers would be to show  GMs how to build their own Talents.

[Sicarius]

16 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I appreciate the builds behind the scenes, but do people really care or need them?  When my Player's Guide comes out I'll bundle the heromaker files together, including the talent builds but I wonder how much people even care.

I do because being new to Hero it explains not only the logic but the mechanics behind the talent.  These builds are similar to code snippets in a programming manual.  And Hero is a kind of programming manual for P&P RPGs.  Or toolkit, whatever lingo floats your boat. 

[HeroGM]

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

An argument can be made that he is Detecting his own pitch, and adjusting himself accordingly, ultimately allowing him, with the means he has At hand, and perhaps practice, produce the perfect pitch.

 

Still, I personally felt the big push to break Talents into Powers was a bunch of self-serving bull snuckles to begin with, for most of the reasons mentioned already.

 

 

 

I think it had to do with lawyerism personally.

[Duke Bushido]

I was trying really hard not to say that.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

At a minimum Perfect Pitch, if built with powers, should be Detect Exact Pitch plus Mimicry skill for producing the pitch.

 

I think you can hand wave that, because being able to replicate an exact tone has very limited actual in-game function.  I mean, yeah I watched an old pulp serial where the heroine was able to exactly duplicate a tuning fork note to open a secret cave, but how often does that kind of thing come up?

 

Quote

These builds are similar to code snippets in a programming manual.  And Hero is a kind of programming manual for P&P RPGs.

 

That is a good way of thinking of it: Hero lets you build what you want using their code.  For me the Talent builds make sure you are creating a proper construct with a reasonable cost.  Its easy to guess (which is how original talents were created -- they predated D&D's 'feats' by almost a decade), but its best to be sure.  And that's why I don't mind the use of the rules to construct talents "behind the scenes" even if nobody knows the build.

[Spence]

2 hours ago, Sicarius said:

I do because being new to Hero it explains not only the logic but the mechanics behind the talent.  These builds are similar to code snippets in a programming manual.  And Hero is a kind of programming manual for P&P RPGs.  Or toolkit, whatever lingo floats your boat. 

 

For the last few years I been saying that Hero isn't actually a RPG, not in the sense of D&D, Pathfinder, and so on. 

 

Instead it is what I call MetaRules used to write an RPG.  Every RPG has a set of "metarules", whether that is a stack of notes or "official" published company documents.  The game company uses these to write the rulebooks it actually sells maintaining game balance and cohesion. 

 

Hero doesn't publish ready to play RPGs.  Instead they publish a set of metarules that allow people to create a RPG. 

 

D&D, Pathfinder and virtually every fantasy RPG out there contains complete magic systems including complete and well rounded spell lists that can be used immediately.

 

Fantasy Hero (any version) does not.  It includes advice and some examples.  But nothing complete and usable immediately.

 

D&D and such spell lists are crafted to compliment the "in actuall play" needs of the PCs that use them.  The closest thing for Hero are their Grimoirs.  But those are massive alphabetical lists grouped by what is basically their special effect or unifying concept.  Which makes the book useless to new inexperienced players just trying to identify a few starting spells that they can afford at chargen.

 

It is

 

But Hero has been stuck in the "chicken or the egg" cycle for years. 

 

In most RPGs the GM merely takes pre-existing balanced game components and inserts them into a story.  If they are confused or don't quite understand, they have access to hundreds of prebuilds and the majority of games include one as an example right in the book.

 

Players normally have a baked in guides for building characters. 

 

Hero has neither, so GMs and players must learn by trial and error. 

 

 

[Sicarius]

2 hours ago, Spence said:

 

For the last few years I been saying that Hero isn't actually a RPG, not in the sense of D&D, Pathfinder, and so on. 

 

Instead it is what I call MetaRules used to write an RPG.  Every RPG has a set of "metarules", whether that is a stack of notes or "official" published company documents.  The game company uses these to write the rulebooks it actually sells maintaining game balance and cohesion. 

 

Hero doesn't publish ready to play RPGs.  Instead they publish a set of metarules that allow people to create a RPG. 

 

D&D, Pathfinder and virtually every fantasy RPG out there contains complete magic systems including complete and well rounded spell lists that can be used immediately.

 

Fantasy Hero (any version) does not.  It includes advice and some examples.  But nothing complete and usable immediately.

 

D&D and such spell lists are crafted to compliment the "in actuall play" needs of the PCs that use them.  The closest thing for Hero are their Grimoirs.  But those are massive alphabetical lists grouped by what is basically their special effect or unifying concept.  Which makes the book useless to new inexperienced players just trying to identify a few starting spells that they can afford at chargen.

 

It is

 

But Hero has been stuck in the "chicken or the egg" cycle for years. 

 

In most RPGs the GM merely takes pre-existing balanced game components and inserts them into a story.  If they are confused or don't quite understand, they have access to hundreds of prebuilds and the majority of games include one as an example right in the book.

 

Players normally have a baked in guides for building characters. 

 

Hero has neither, so GMs and players must learn by trial and error. 

 

 

That's the cost of being allowed access to the source code!  Hero with bestiary, grimoire and FH's templates seem pretty much equal any given D&Dish type set. (admitted with a greater investment by GM and players),  Warhammer FRP, Hollow Earth Expedition, Zweihander are examples of more complete gaming environments.  Which is great and cool as long as your content with the setup.   Hero is freaking awesome if you want to build your own world.

 

The complexity issue between Steve Jackson's Melee, Wizard, Adv Melee, Adv Wizard, The Fantasy Trip and GURPS is to me a personal preference of the GM and group because even Melee is a tougher game than Hangman or UNO.  But Melee opens tons of options over them there UNO cards and Hero opens tons of options over....uhh...EVERY FREAKING THING!

 

But I still like UNO!  😃

[Duke Bushido]

3 hours ago, Spence said:

 

Fantasy Hero (any version) does not. 

 

 

 

 

Just gonna leave this right here....

 

 

[Spence]

5 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

Just gonna leave this right here....

 

 

I stand corrected...

[Sicarius]

24 minutes ago, Spence said:

I stand corrected...

Its a big man that owns up.  Cheers to you, sir! 😉

[Duke Bushido]

Its all good.  I just like to drop periodic reminders of the value of complete self-contained games.