Lord Liaden Posted January 16, 2021 Report Share Posted January 16, 2021 Yes, I'm asking for help tracking down a CU datum. Please get your mockery out of the way up front... 😔 I know I've read the story of how the classic 4E superhero, Seeker, became a fictional replacement for Nighthawk in the licensed "Champions comic series" within the official 5E/6E CU, because Nighthawk who was a member of the Champions team at the time, refused permission to use his name and image. But for the life of me I can't find the published print source of the story. Anyone remember where it is? My status as CU oracle hangs in the balance. 🙏 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted January 16, 2021 Report Share Posted January 16, 2021 Wait! Wasn’t Nighthawk the replacement for Seeker? Did I read your post wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Bushido Posted January 16, 2021 Report Share Posted January 16, 2021 3 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said: Wait! Wasn’t Nighthawk the replacement for Seeker? Did I read your post wrong? EDIT: Scratch what I just said. I suddenly remember Nighthawk on the cover of the Adventurers Club that contains the article about "The Hero and Legal System--" or something to that effect. Perhaps it was in some sort of side material: magazine article, something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archer Posted January 16, 2021 Report Share Posted January 16, 2021 1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said: EDIT: Scratch what I just said. I suddenly remember Nighthawk on the cover of the Adventurers Club that contains the article about "The Hero and Legal System--" or something to that effect. Perhaps it was in some sort of side material: magazine article, something? I don't remember reading it in Adventurers Club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted January 16, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2021 Just to make sure we're talking about the same things, Adventurers Club was the print periodical from Hero Games for 4E Hero System. With the beginning of the DOJ era and 5E, the company published an electronic magazine, Digital Hero. I'll search through the latter for the article Duke Bushido mentioned, and get back to you. 7 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said: Wait! Wasn’t Nighthawk the replacement for Seeker? Did I read your post wrong? In the sense of their roles as members of the example Champions superhero team for 4E and for 5E, Nighthawk did essentially replace Seeker, yes. What I'm asking about is their respective status for the official Champions Universe game setting under 5E/6E. In that world Seeker is a fictional character created for the licensed Champions comic book, created because Nighthawk wouldn't agree to have his identity used in the comic. It's clearly an in-joke for long-time Champions players. Thanks for your help so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted January 16, 2021 Report Share Posted January 16, 2021 Thanks for the clarification LL. Unfortunately I don’t know anymore than that. ☹️ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Bushido Posted January 16, 2021 Report Share Posted January 16, 2021 Hell, I didn't even know that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroGM Posted January 16, 2021 Report Share Posted January 16, 2021 I don't remember that. I remember nighthawk and seeker being part of the Champions and was tossed out for doing a Red X Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted January 16, 2021 Report Share Posted January 16, 2021 Seeker was replaced by Nighthawk because Steve Long didn't like Seeker. LL is looking for the in universe reasoning. Lord Liaden 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spence Posted January 16, 2021 Report Share Posted January 16, 2021 4 hours ago, Lord Liaden said: What I'm asking about is their respective status for the official Champions Universe game setting under 5E/6E. So far I have only found a couple items that are pertinent to the question. In Champions Universe News of the World, Nighthawk had a bad break with the Champions in the summer of 2006 (including coming to blows with Defender and quit the team. Later it also says "Harmon agreed, but was not willing to leave the Champions, especially in the wake of Nighthawk’s apparent death." Harmon is Defender and I have not been able to locate the incident so far. So, at this point Nighthawk (the Batman clone) is not a member of the Champions or even in good terms with them and is thought to actually be dead. Seeker doesn't seem to appear in Champions or Champions Universe (5th or 6th) and Champions Universe News of the World (5th). Still digging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted January 16, 2021 Report Share Posted January 16, 2021 34 minutes ago, Greywind said: Seeker was replaced by Nighthawk because Steve Long didn't like Seeker. LL is looking for the in universe reasoning. Well he wasn’t the only one according to most of the fan base. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spence Posted January 16, 2021 Report Share Posted January 16, 2021 5 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said: Well he wasn’t the only one according to most of the fan base. There were a lot of changes and I really don't remember them that well because I got them in pieces because I was on the move a lot in my last few years in the Navy. But I do seem to remember they were on par with the changes from 5th to 6th. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted January 16, 2021 Report Share Posted January 16, 2021 53 minutes ago, Spence said: There were a lot of changes and I really don't remember them that well because I got them in pieces because I was on the move a lot in my last few years in the Navy. But I do seem to remember they were on par with the changes from 5th to 6th. I believe the biggest issue with Seeker was his background. Him being an Australian Ninja. And it wasn’t *Ahem* logical. Back in the day, I had a bigger problem with his 25 STR and a little with Ultrasonic Hearing. And the Sais being called Triple Irons! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archer Posted January 16, 2021 Report Share Posted January 16, 2021 5 hours ago, Lord Liaden said: Just to make sure we're talking about the same things, Adventurers Club was the print periodical from Hero Games for 4E Hero System. With the beginning of the DOJ era and 5E, the company published an electronic magazine, Digital Hero. I'll search through the latter for the article Duke Bushido mentioned, and get back to you. I'm talking about "I don't recall ever seeing it mentioned in the print periodical". I own all 27 issues of that (and have never read even one full issue of Digital Hero). Now Seeker is on the cover of issue 25 and is mirrored by a similar figure dressed in black. There might be something mentioned there that I just don't remember after not reading it in more than 15 years. But I don't think so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spence Posted January 16, 2021 Report Share Posted January 16, 2021 1 hour ago, Ninja-Bear said: I believe the biggest issue with Seeker was his background. Him being an Australian Ninja. And it wasn’t *Ahem* logical. Back in the day, I had a bigger problem with his 25 STR and a little with Ultrasonic Hearing. And the Sais being called Triple Irons! I had this big long reply written. And then realized it all boiled down to "I can understand not liking a character concept, but I didn't have that big an issue". So I made it shorter..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jhamin Posted January 16, 2021 Report Share Posted January 16, 2021 1 hour ago, Ninja-Bear said: I believe the biggest issue with Seeker was his background. Him being an Australian Ninja. And it wasn’t *Ahem* logical. Back in the day, I had a bigger problem with his 25 STR and a little with Ultrasonic Hearing. And the Sais being called Triple Irons! He was always a bit outlandish, but I always thought he was fun in a Rocket Racer/Vibe/Dazzler/"way too topical hero" kind of way. Ninjas were cool, Crocodile Dundee was popular, why not combine them? Love him or hate him, He is a *ton* more memorable than some of the other 4th edition Champions like Jaguar or Quantum. archer, Spence, Lawnmower Boy and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted January 17, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2021 3 hours ago, Jhamin said: He was always a bit outlandish, but I always thought he was fun in a Rocket Racer/Vibe/Dazzler/"way too topical hero" kind of way. Ninjas were cool, Crocodile Dundee was popular, why not combine them? Love him or hate him, He is a *ton* more memorable than some of the other 4th edition Champions like Jaguar or Quantum. Yeah, when you express Seeker's whole concept and origin, it really seems like a mashup of a bunch of superficial pop-culture concepts popular at the time (1989) that Seeker was created: an orphaned swashbuckling Australian ninja country bumpkin from the Outback, raised and trained in ninjutsu by a survivor of a Japanese ninja recon team hiding in the Outback since WW II. The "figure dressed in black" from the cover of AC 25 is actually supposed to be Seeker, dressed in gear more appropriate to ninja stealth activities. That's part of an update to the character's history and game stats which make up an article in that issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Bushido Posted January 17, 2021 Report Share Posted January 17, 2021 6 hours ago, Greywind said: Seeker was replaced by Nighthawk because Steve Long didn't like Seeker. LL is looking for the in universe reasoning. You know, I don't think I have ever felt as much appreciation for another human being to whom I am not married as this statement made me feel for Steve Long. I detest (no; not past tense: I really can't let it go) Seeker, and for all the reasons LL mentioned. He might as well have had massively-outsized shoulder pads, been covered in pouches, and had a single glowing eye... 4 hours ago, archer said: I'm talking about "I don't recall ever seeing it mentioned in the print periodical". Obviously, I had to check for myself after posting. However, I was still at work, and my AC's weren't. At any rate, the character I was thinking of was not Nighthawk; he bore a superficial resemblance in the cover art, however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted January 17, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2021 6 hours ago, Spence said: So far I have only found a couple items that are pertinent to the question. In Champions Universe News of the World, Nighthawk had a bad break with the Champions in the summer of 2006 (including coming to blows with Defender and quit the team. Later it also says "Harmon agreed, but was not willing to leave the Champions, especially in the wake of Nighthawk’s apparent death." Harmon is Defender and I have not been able to locate the incident so far. So, at this point Nighthawk (the Batman clone) is not a member of the Champions or even in good terms with them and is thought to actually be dead. Seeker doesn't seem to appear in Champions or Champions Universe (5th or 6th) and Champions Universe News of the World (5th). Still digging. And I'm grateful for you taking the time to do that, Spence. The only other print reference to Seeker I can find now in 5E/6E books, which is consistent with the fictional character concept I outlined above, is from Vibora Bay p. 50. The import/export company, Transnational Container, is sitting on ten thousand Seeker action figures which they bought on speculation, and haven't been able to find a buyer for at any price. 8 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said: You know, I don't think I have ever felt as much appreciation for another human being to whom I am not married as this statement made me feel for Steve Long. I detest (no; not past tense: I really can't let it go) Seeker, and for all the reasons LL mentioned. He might as well have had massively-outsized shoulder pads, been covered in pouches, and had a single glowing eye... It's actually rather ironic, in that Seeker is the protagonist and central character in IMHO one of the better books Steve Long wrote for Champions, Watchers of the Dragon. Steve succeeded in making Seeker/Don Morgan believable, interesting, even compelling. But I guess the union of Steve Long with Don Morgan was purely contractual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greypaladin_01 Posted January 17, 2021 Report Share Posted January 17, 2021 Hi Lord Liaden, The specific mention you are looking for was 5e Millennium City book. Media & Entertainment section / Superworld & Other Magazines... page 39, second paragraph. Hope it helps! Lord Liaden, Jhamin and Spence 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jhamin Posted January 17, 2021 Report Share Posted January 17, 2021 14 minutes ago, greypaladin_01 said: The specific mention you are looking for was 5e Millennium City book. Media & Entertainment section / Superworld & Other Magazines... page 39, second paragraph. Dude! You are a Hero Lore Legend! Having just read the bit, Lord Liaden may have had trouble finding this because it never actually names Seeker. The way the character is described it's clearly Seeker, they just never call him that. greypaladin_01 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted January 17, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2021 YES!! Thank you so much, GP01! That was driving me crazy. I wasted too much time and effort looking for "Seeker," which this book didn't name, just calling him an "Australian ninja." BTW I had also noticed that the MC book included a cover for the fictional Champions comic on page 52, which the banner declared, "Down Under and Outback -- The Senses Shattering Conclusion -- The Final Fate of Seeker!" With the image of who is clearly Seeker being strangled. Poor Don. Even in 5E he's still getting beaten up on covers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greypaladin_01 Posted January 17, 2021 Report Share Posted January 17, 2021 Glad I could help! I remembered the section as well... I just had to check through a few books to find it. Advantages to having read and re-read so many of the books over my life. Made narrowing it down quicker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted January 17, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2021 Yeah, MC was one of the first books I thought to look in. I even have the PDF to search, but I didn't think to input either "Australian" or "ninja" as a search term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greypaladin_01 Posted January 17, 2021 Report Share Posted January 17, 2021 Seeker just gets no love.... he doesn't even get a name anymore. Kinda shame... he was product of the times, but was always one I liked as a kid back in the 4E days. Plus as mentioned before Watchers of the Dragon went a LONG way to softening some of the goofy hard edges while keeping the spirit there. Jhamin, HeroGM and Lord Liaden 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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