Champions Universe reference help

[Ninja-Bear]

2 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

Yeah, when you express Seeker's whole concept and origin, it really seems like a mashup of a bunch of superficial pop-culture concepts popular at the time (1989) that Seeker was created: an orphaned swashbuckling Australian ninja country bumpkin from the Outback, raised and trained in ninjutsu by a survivor of a Japanese ninja recon team hiding in the Outback since WW II.

 

The "figure dressed in black" from the cover of AC 25 is actually supposed to be Seeker, dressed in gear more appropriate to ninja stealth activities. That's part of an update to the character's history and game stats which make up an article in that issue.

Maybe, but he was an original concept. i figured that the reason why he is Australian is that to make it more "plausible" to be taught by a ninja by the route of WW2. And this is a change from the American that goes to Japan and learns Ninjutsu. I just don't see it any more outlandish as a Latino boy learning to control his curse and become a were jaguar or the an Alien Prince sent to a backwater planet.

[Lord Liaden]

With respect, I would dispute Seeker being an "original" concept. As an aggregate he's unique, but IMO he's an aggregate of cliches. I also strongly suspect that him being Australian from the Outback (Crocodile Dundee), and a martial artist (legions of movie versions since Bruce Lee), came first, and the ninja mentor was rationalized afterward. Because nothing says "ninja" like a bare-chested white-skinned man in blousey white pants who likes to swing from chandeliers.

[Jhamin]

2 hours ago, greypaladin_01 said:

Seeker just gets no love.... he doesn't even get a name anymore.   Kinda shame... he was product of the times, but was always one I liked as a kid back in the 4E days.   Plus as mentioned before Watchers of the Dragon went a LONG way to softening some of the goofy hard edges while keeping the spirit there.

 

I am on your side with this one.  He was ridiculous, but he was a comic book superhero in a pretty silver age setting.  Lots of them were over the top in lots of ways.  His bright colors and bare chest never bothered me.  The version of Defender he shared a team with painted his armor Red White and Blue.

 

I loved that it was mentioned that when he needed to work things out for a while he rode with The Outcasts, the nomadic mutant biker outcasts from "The Mutant File".  It was such a random thing that I could so easily see being a plot arc in a comic of the era.

[Jhamin]

2 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

With respect, I would dispute Seeker being an "original" concept. As an aggregate he's unique, but IMO he's an aggregate of cliches.

 

The Champions are all pretty much archetypes, which only allows them to be so original.  In Fourth edition they did double duty as an in-universe team and as example characters who were legal at the starting points and campaign recommendations for the era.  They each filled one of the classic hero archetypes and they each were 2 classic origins/character shticks mixed together.

Seeker - Martial Artist.  Super Training/Wisecracking Jokester

Obsidian - Brick, Alien/Noble Elite

Quantum - Flying Blaster, Mutant/Hard-edged Lose Canon

Jaguar - Combat & Skill Multiform, Detective/Hero who doesn't like his powers
Defender - IAF Power Armored, Rich Genius/Legacy Hero

Solitaire - Super Wizard, Mystic Upbringing/Innocent in a strange world

You could make a similar list with the modern Champions.  I'm not sure that IronClad is that much more "original" than Obsidian was, but he is a much better example of the modern way to build a brick.

 

I'm not saying that Seeker is an amazing creation.  I do Argue that he has a certain personality as a character that makes him stand out from the other example characters of his era.  Good or Bad.
I mean when was the last time anyone asked a question about Jaguar?

[Lord Liaden]

Personally, I prefer the version of Seeker from the Champions: New Millennium setting. A much more original concept and interesting background IMO.

[Jhamin]

23 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

Personally, I prefer the version of Seeker from the Champions: New Millennium setting. A much more original concept and interesting background IMO.

 

I can respect that.

At the time New Millennium dropped I was rapidly souring on the hardcore 90s re-imaginings of classic heroes.  (Remember when Batman turned over the cowel to Azrael?)

When I read their Seeker's origin it felt like they decided to add some secret government projects and "ultimate assassin wearing straps & shoulderpads" to good old Seeker to make him more "hardcore" as was happening to several of my beloved marvel & dc comics characters at the time. 

I was never really able to look at that character on his own.  For me the contrast between 4e's happy swashbuckling Ninja in starched pants and his Liefieldesque "aloof and distant" replacement was a bridge too far.  the New Millenium version of the character got wrapped up in my distaste for the 90s antihero.  It probably isn't a fair judgement

 

I *was* a pretty big fan of "Team Defender" though....

[Spence]

20 minutes ago, Jhamin said:

the New Millenium version of the character got wrapped up in my distaste for the 90s antihero.  It probably isn't a fair judgement

 

Nope your distaste for the 90s antihero is spot on.  

You get the Spence stamp of approval...

[Ninja-Bear]

@Lord Liaden, yeah shirtless Seeker bothered me although years ago. Now that I understand more genre tropes and years passing by, it doesn’t bother me as much. But I do get it. Somethings may bother me and you’ll be like, eh? What’s the deal? And vice versa. 😀

[greypaladin_01]

I always had a soft spot for the bulk of the 4E Champions team, but I also admit that all of New Millennium got the short end of the stick by fans.   While it is VERY image in places, it is a very viable campaign and there are many elements of it that I like better than what we ended up with in 5/6E.

 

Also, other than licensing issues, I really don't see how most of the changes  (everyone by Defender)  were really any better than their predecessors.   While the 5E+ team are viable characters in their own right, I still don't see how a little more care to flesh out backgrounds from 4E team could not have made them just as viable.   (Except maybe Jaguar,  while he is a good example of Multiform character he was the weak link of the team to me.)

 

  

[Dr. MID-Nite]

A bit late....but yes...5th Ed MC.

[Lord Liaden]

4 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

@Lord Liaden, yeah shirtless Seeker bothered me although years ago. Now that I understand more genre tropes and years passing by, it doesn’t bother me as much. But I do get it. Somethings may bother me and you’ll be like, eh? What’s the deal? And vice versa. 😀

 

It wasn't the shirtlessness that bothered me, at least not much. Other comic characters are bare-chested. It was the illogic of someone raised and trained by a ninja, the epitome of stealth, whose dress and whole manner is the most attention-grabbing imaginable.

[Ninja-Bear]

12 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

It wasn't the shirtlessness that bothered me, at least not much. Other comic characters are bare-chested. It was the illogic of someone raised and trained by a ninja, the epitome of stealth, whose dress and whole manner is the most attention-grabbing imaginable.

I guess you never watched Five Element Ninjas? 😁

[Spence]

4 hours ago, greypaladin_01 said:

I always had a soft spot for the bulk of the 4E Champions team, but I also admit that all of New Millennium got the short end of the stick by fans.

 

New Millennium was the Fuzon version and that was its downfall.  But not for the reasons most people think.

 

When Fuzon came out products were physical books and the internet was nothing near what we have today.  Social media was in its infancy and bulletin boards ruled.  But product was physical and the idea of getting timely errata was something for the future. 

 

Fuzon had been hyped by a few newsletters, gaming magazines and some people at a con.   So when I saw a copy at a store I bought it.  It was utter incoherent c*ap.  It kept referring to “dials” and “switches” but they were not to be found anywhere in the book.  Examples talking about things that did not appear anywhere.  So, I tossed into a box and was pretty angry about getting taken, it wasted a good amount of my free money at a time when I wasn’t making much. 

 

It wasn’t until years later when I got in an argument with a gamer friend about it.  He thought the game wasn’t bad and that it was shame it hadn’t made it while I only remembered it as the definition of c*ap.  We decided we would settle it going through the books.  It took me a good week to find the box my copy was stashed in and then I got a real surprise.  We were both right.   His copy had whole sections that were literally not in my book, even though the pages numbers were all there.  It was like someone had randomly removed parts of the book and then renumbered the pages.  Back then it wasn’t like you could just compare the hardcopy to the PDF or jump on the company’s forum and get answers.  If even a minor part of the print run was defective like mine was, that would be enough to doom a game without the owners of the game even being aware of why.  Remember, at that time there were many games being printed that actually were incoherent garbage so seeing another wasn’t too surprising.  Seeing your favorite game company with a good track record suddenly shafting you with would really anger their fanbase. 

 

So Fuzon crashed, hard.  And has a really bad reputation to this day.  I think it wasn’t the game itself, but a printing error that was not identified, but hidden during the general release.

[Sketchpad]

When I was running Champions in the CU, I made some changes to Seeker up front. I changed him from "Ninja" to "Martial Artist" and gave him some chi abilities ala Iron Fist. I kept the katana, but gave it some neat, mystical properties that allowed it to cut desolid characters, and slice through materials. As he advanced in the campaign, he took on an outfit inspired by Watchers of the Dragon, but that was colored white and red. When the campaign was retired, he was working as a mentor at UNTIL where he trained a group of new heroes. 

[dmjalund]

My only (minor) complaint with Seeker was his non-uniform uniform clashed with the spandex/armor jockeys he teamed up with (and fought)

[Lord Liaden]

I'm not sure I agree. The visuals of the 4E Champions were pretty diverse.

[Jhamin]

It always bothered me that Defender's color scheme was always red/white/blue but exactly which colors were on which parts of his armor was never consistent.  There is no rule that says he could never repaint his armor, but it bothered me. 

 

I *did* really like the color scheme of Red Fury, his evil universe doppelganger.  That Gold/Black/Red looked snazzy!

[archer]

15 hours ago, Spence said:

 

New Millennium was the Fuzon version and that was its downfall.  But not for the reasons most people think.

 

When Fuzon came out products were physical books and the internet was nothing near what we have today.  Social media was in its infancy and bulletin boards ruled.  But product was physical and the idea of getting timely errata was something for the future. 

 

Fuzon had been hyped by a few newsletters, gaming magazines and some people at a con.   So when I saw a copy at a store I bought it.  It was utter incoherent c*ap.  It kept referring to “dials” and “switches” but they were not to be found anywhere in the book.  Examples talking about things that did not appear anywhere.  So, I tossed into a box and was pretty angry about getting taken, it wasted a good amount of my free money at a time when I wasn’t making much. 

 

It wasn’t until years later when I got in an argument with a gamer friend about it.  He thought the game wasn’t bad and that it was shame it hadn’t made it while I only remembered it as the definition of c*ap.  We decided we would settle it going through the books.  It took me a good week to find the box my copy was stashed in and then I got a real surprise.  We were both right.   His copy had whole sections that were literally not in my book, even though the pages numbers were all there.  It was like someone had randomly removed parts of the book and then renumbered the pages.  Back then it wasn’t like you could just compare the hardcopy to the PDF or jump on the company’s forum and get answers.  If even a minor part of the print run was defective like mine was, that would be enough to doom a game without the owners of the game even being aware of why.  Remember, at that time there were many games being printed that actually were incoherent garbage so seeing another wasn’t too surprising.  Seeing your favorite game company with a good track record suddenly shafting you with would really anger their fanbase. 

 

So Fuzon crashed, hard.  And has a really bad reputation to this day.  I think it wasn’t the game itself, but a printing error that was not identified, but hidden during the general release.

 

I'd have to dig up my copy as well but my impression after reading it was the same as yours. I had no idea what they meant by dials and switches.

 

I figured they were just trying to tell me to tweak the characters to fit the power level of the game I wanted to play...or something like that. And just hadn't figured out that using unexplained insider jargon wasn't helpful when introducing a player to their version of the game.

[Lord Liaden]

I found the presentation of the whole setting incoherent. Key information to understand what this world is all about was scattered across not only the first book, but the other two books in the line, with no clear guide for where to find it. The books also have no index, which when compared to the exhaustive indices in DOJ Hero books just makes me more frustrated. (Now that the New Millennium books are available in searchable PDF form that problem is greatly diminished.)

 

I also found the characters to be decidedly hit-or-miss. Some were very cleverly designed, like the new, saner version of Foxbat who's "haunted" by the psyche of the original loony Foxbat. Others seemed to have no significant history or motivation for what they're doing. One example being the comment by Malais the Dragon as to why he answered the call to come to Earth: "Why not?"

 

When I think of the NM books I'm reminded of one reviewer's description of the Fantastic Four movie from 2005 as a "shit-encrusted diamond." The setting has some great elements, but they're degraded by sloppy execution and no few questionable choices.

 

 

[Jhamin]

19 hours ago, Spence said:

When Fuzon came out products were physical books and the internet was nothing near what we have today.  Social media was in its infancy and bulletin boards ruled.  But product was physical and the idea of getting timely errata was something for the future. 

 

Fuzon had been hyped by a few newsletters, gaming magazines and some people at a con.   So when I saw a copy at a store I bought it.  It was utter incoherent c*ap.  It kept referring to “dials” and “switches” but they were not to be found anywhere in the book.  Examples talking about things that did not appear anywhere.  So, I tossed into a box and was pretty angry about getting taken, it wasted a good amount of my free money at a time when I wasn’t making much.

 

The Hype part was important.  The art direction and tone of the New Millennium books was a big break from what came before, but it came at a time when Comics were seeing a lot of tonal shifts.  I didn't like it but I can't fault them for making those choices in the late 90s.

I think it was the gaming side of it that broke them.  Back in the day Fuzion was being marketed as a **replacement** for 4th edition.  No more Hero system, everything would be Fuzion from now on.  Folks were skeptical, but were willing to hear them out. 

Then we got the book and the sidebar for the powers section explicitly said that all it's powers were bought by using the Hero 4th edition rules and dividing point costs by five.  They had a list of powers and costs but if the power you wanted wasn't there the new edition of the rules said you should use Hero 4th to buy it.  This was like having Champions Complete refer you to the 5th Edition core book for Skills explanations.  There were also references to Mekton Z for vehicle rules and whatever other Plugins you needed but no sense of how they worked or when you should add them.  To really get all the rules you needed a bunch of books, many of which didn't exist yet.  This felt like a big step backward from Hero 4th, which was just as much a universal system in one book as 6th is.

When folks asked how this was a replacement for Hero but still required Hero to work the official response was that the "Powers Plugin" wasn't ready but would come out later, which was not what we had been promised before buying Fuzion.  There was a *lot* of backlash to C:NM in the online Hero communities of the era.  Folks decided to just stick to 4E, Fuzion fizzled, and one of the early promises Steve Long made when 5E was launching was that he was going to help us all pretend Fuzion had never happened.  A promise he kept.

Also, that promised "Powers Plugin?  Never did come out.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

It always bothered me that Defender's color scheme was always red/white/blue but exactly which colors were on which parts of his armor was never consistent.  There is no rule that says he could never repaint his armor, but it bothered me. 

 

The version Liadin linked was my interpretation of what his armor ought to look like.

[Jhamin]

20 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

The version Liadin linked was my interpretation of what his armor ought to look like.

 

But that version almost never showed up in any of the color art.  I think Champions of the North goes with that, but it may be the only art that does.

On the cover of the Core Book (the Perez art with Seeker Fighting Dr. Destroyer), Defender's shoulders are red & his helmet is blue.  Which is the scheme they go with on Champions in 3D and Challenges for Champions.
Kingdom of Champions gave him a red helmet

Zodiac Conspiracy show him the White torso & shoulders like in the image above, but reversed the colors on his legs

Invaders from Below gave him a white helmet & gauntlets, a Red Torso, and blue legs and biceps

Allies also gave him a White Helmet, but with White Forearm guards and Blue Gauntlets

I'm gonna just assume that 4th edition Defender didn't have multiple suits, he had an assortment of Helmets, Torsos, Gauntlets, Boots, etc that were all some variant of Red/White/Blue which he put on at random and we were just lucky that the Boots normally matched.

 

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

Jaguar also had a different scheme. He was mostly black but I do recall a brown spotted version?

[Jhamin]

9 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Jaguar also had a different scheme. He was mostly black but I do recall a brown spotted version?

 

He was yellow and spotted on "Pyramid in the Sky", which is what Jaguars really should look like.

He was black furred on the 4th Ed Champions Universe and Brown furred on European Enemies (aka: That which must not be named), which I *think* are his only cover appearances.  He was by far the least depicted of the 4th edition Champions.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Jaguar really ought to be portrayed as a well-dressed South American gentleman ready to do field work as a private detective, because he preferred not to be the cat.  It was a family curse, think of him like the Hulk: Banner doesn't like to be that way.  When I wrote up a Champions comic book that I never was able to finish the issue introducing Jaguar was him undercover in VIPER as a trainee agent, discovering their secrets for Defender (the money man in the team).  He was the cat only at the very end of the issue, the rest of the time he was being smart and finding things out.