Hero System: Beginner friendly?

[archer]

Your Conehead Expy will be different than your Robin Hood Espy.

[Spence]

On 1/21/2021 at 10:27 AM, Duke Bushido said:

I don't want to be "that guy," but I do want it noted:

 

There are a lot of suggestions on what to leave out, what to work up to, etc,

 

I have taught this game to a group of kids, spendibg about 3 sessions (including character generation), all of whom can play without problems or confusion, and I have done none of those things.  We started out tracking END, STUN, BODY, figuring range modifiers, assessing skill roll penalties and bonuses, countong damage, figuring DEF (to include Resistan vs non), etc.   I didnt leave anything out, and they got it quickly, the same way we did when we learned to play.

 

These kids range from 7th to 10 (11th?) Grade, and frankly, they have had more problems letting go of the "he's an underclassmen so I shouldn't be seen with him" than they had learning to play.

 

I suspect that a lot of the "hard to teach" aspect centers on how sold they are on wanting do learn it in the first place.

 

We have all noted at some point that there is no difficult math ib this game.  There is more math than there is with other games, but again: it's not difficult, and it becomes rote in a session or two.

 

 

Just to note.

 

My stand has zero to do with one player who already knows Hero teaching others.  I have never found that to be any harder than any other RPG.

 

I am trying to come up with what I think we need.   A way to allow a group where no one knows anything about Hero can be introduced to it. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tjack]

On 1/21/2021 at 11:27 AM, Duke Bushido said:

I don't want to be "that guy," but I do want it noted:

 

There are a lot of suggestions on what to leave out, what to work up to, etc,

 

I have taught this game to a group of kids, spendibg about 3 sessions (including character generation), all of whom can play without problems or confusion, and I have done none of those things.  We started out tracking END, STUN, BODY, figuring range modifiers, assessing skill roll penalties and bonuses, countong damage, figuring DEF (to include Resistan vs non), etc.   I didnt leave anything out, and they got it quickly, the same way we did when we learned to play.

 

These kids range from 7th to 10 (11th?) Grade, and frankly, they have had more problems letting go of the "he's an underclassmen so I shouldn't be seen with him" than they had learning to play.

 

I suspect that a lot of the "hard to teach" aspect centers on how sold they are on wanting do learn it in the first place.

 

We have all noted at some point that there is no difficult math ib this game.  There is more math than there is with other games, but again: it's not difficult, and it becomes rote in a session or two.

 

 

     I’ll grant you all that, but three sessions at about two hours each is SIX hours WITH an instructor to learn to play.  With the D&D and Pathfinder free downloads you can be playing within one hour without any live instructor. 

     Which do you see as easier for someone only vaguely curious to pick up and become interested in?
Champions desperately needs new blood, new players to keep the company going.  It’s not as if MAJOR companies haven’t gone down the tubes before because the old men at the top kept saying “ We never had to do anything different before, so we don’t have to now.”  I would hate to see Hero Games die out because of blindness and willful inaction.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

 Which do you see as easier for someone only vaguely curious to pick up and become interested in?

 

That's because of the product, not the game.  It is no more challenging than D&D to learn.  Easier in some ways.

It take any 6 hours to learn to play Champions in any case, you can start playing immediately and learn on the roll, like I did (and I suspect everyone else here).  I get that people want and like intro packages but for crying out loud, nobody used them to learn anything in the past, we just started playing.

[Thia Halmades]

While back I wrote a whole post about this, that boils down to this core idea:

 

HERO isn’t complex. HERO players make it complex. That’s not a dig in either direction; I find HERO remarkably straight forward and when managed well, the foundation of the system is very simple: roll low for skills and hit rolls, roll high for damage. The big thing to overcome is SPD and the Speed Chart, and unleashing the text on new people. If you want to introduce beginners to HERO, here’s how I would do it:

 

* Get everyone together over Discord (or here, or wherever) and pitch them the setting; get buy-in (I have rules for what this actually means but we’ll skip that)

* Once the setting is established, ask that most critical of questions: What do you want to be in this setting? If that’s too broad, give them some classic options: Gunslinger, Apothecary, Swindler, etc.

* You write up the builds based on that input; this is absolutely crucial for new people; I never ask new players to build, just feed me ideas

 

This way, you’re setting the balance, you’re setting the point limits, you see where I’m going with this. Then, send them their characters and walk them through the specifics and unique bits. Say the Gunslinger has “Fan the Hammer,” which is autofire, up to 6 shots, depending on how many rounds are left in the chamber and/or how many they want to unload. They also have “Speed Loader,” a skill check to reload, -1 for every 2 bullets, if successful it consumes no time. 

 

Once they’ve seen it, and they start relating limitations as form and advantages as function, they’ll be hooked.

 

I mean. Assuming you’ve got GM skills, that is.

[Duke Bushido]

2 hours ago, Tjack said:

     I’ll grant you all that, but three sessions at about two hours each is SIX hours WITH an instructor to learn to play.  With the D&D and Pathfinder free downloads you can be playing within one hour without any live instructor. 

     Which do you see as easier for someone only vaguely curious to pick up and become interested in?
Champions desperately needs new blood, new players to keep the company going.  It’s not as if MAJOR companies haven’t gone down the tubes before because the old men at the top kept saying “ We never had to do anything different before, so we don’t have to now.”  I would hate to see Hero Games die out because of blindness and willful inaction.

 

 

I must not have been clear enough; my apologies:

 

We were "playing" within a few minutes of the second session (the first having been entirely character generation and having fun with that.  Granted, fun slows down progression, but I'd prefer to keep it fun so that they look forward to the next session).

 

My statement, if it wasn't clear, was that by the third session, they were as versed as any other player, and required clarifications or questions only for those things which had not come up yet (flight v flight in a push-back contest, for example.  Hell, I don't even think that's in the book: I made a call and we ran with it.)

 

My apologies for the lack of clarity.

 

 

[Tjack]

8 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

I must not have been clear enough; my apologies:

 

We were "playing" within a few minutes of the second session (the first having been entirely character generation and having fun with that.  Granted, fun slows down progression, but I'd prefer to keep it fun so that they look forward to the next session).

 

My statement, if it wasn't clear, was that by the third session, they were as versed as any other player, and required clarifications or questions only for those things which had not come up yet (flight v flight in a push-back contest, for example.  Hell, I don't even think that's in the book: I made a call and we ran with it.)

 

My apologies for the lack of clarity.

 

 

      My problem is not with you so I’m sorry if it seemed that way. I’m just getting frustrated with what I see as a lack of caring from the senior members of this board whether or not this company lives or dies.

      Whenever I talk about a need for a way to bring in new players (like a free downloadable sample game) all anyone goes on about is how it’s actually not so tough to learn the rules.  Not if they have any BETTER IDEAS.  It’s easy to say “That crate will never get off the ground”.

  If any of you want to impress me show me a better way to get new players involved. Or at least admit that the clock is winding down and no one is interested enough to do anything about it.

[archer]

1 hour ago, Tjack said:

      My problem is not with you so I’m sorry if it seemed that way. I’m just getting frustrated with what I see as a lack of caring from the senior members of this board whether or not this company lives or dies.

      Whenever I talk about a need for a way to bring in new players (like a free downloadable sample game) all anyone goes on about is how it’s actually not so tough to learn the rules.  Not if they have any BETTER IDEAS.  It’s easy to say “That crate will never get off the ground”.

  If any of you want to impress me show me a better way to get new players involved. Or at least admit that the clock is winding down and no one is interested enough to do anything about it.

 

A personal opinion here.

 

The system isn't hard to learn to play. You can have someone playing in a few minutes if you write out a character sheet so that the new player can easily see his options of what to do.

 

The system is hard to learn so that people can build effective characters, manipulate the timing rules for advantage, manipulate the blocking rules for advantage, learn when to hold actions, and all the messy stuff.

 

In my limited experience, regular people who aren't gamers like playing the game if you just sit them down and play a game.

 

But they for the most part don't want to actually learn anything about the game because there's so many moving parts.

 

So those people are never going to be in the market to buy HERO products and most likely aren't going to ever GM a HERO game. Most of them act allergic to the books if you offer to loan them one so they can read about the system or setting (even adults react like "OMG, you're not trying to give me homework!")

 

My daughter plays Champions and Fantasy Hero games and has GM'ed one. But she's not deeply interested in it as a game system. She plays and DM's in multiple online D&D campaigns: she can always find a game wanting new players and she doesn't have trouble explaining the rules or concepts. Stuff just kind of happens in D&D and it's not all crunchy like Fantasy Hero.

 

Personally, I love the crunch.

 

But I've seen video of people playing D&D.

 

Their system has printed little cards with the classes' powers on them. When the power is used and isn't available anymore, the player puts that card into his discard pile.

 

When it's that person's turn during combat, he shuffles through the cards looking to see if there's a power he can use then either does that or attacks with a weapon. For the most part, the players aren't even looking at their character sheets anymore.

 

For all practical purposes, the players are playing cards. And the players don't find that intimidating or confusing. As the adventure/combat moves along, it gets more and more simple because the players have fewer options left to them...and they can see that because they have fewer cards.

 

 

I'm not sure how to get HERO down to being that simplistic. But I've tried an additional stripped down version of the character sheet specifically for combat use which shows only the things which you need to know for combat. It's divided into sections for offense, defense, movement, and panic (things to do when things are about to otherwise go very badly like Dodge, Dive for Cover, Block, Roll with the Blow, remember to turn on your forcefield, etc.)

 

So you don't have your Running in a different spot than your Flight. Your PD from your characteristics is close to your Forcefield and your armored costume stats. Your Energy Blast is listed with your Offensive Strike.

 

If the character has a multipower, group the slots as offense, defense, and movement then build it so you can describe to an idiot how it works during combat. Then write that explanation on the character sheet.

[Tjack]

1 hour ago, archer said:

 

A personal opinion here.

 

The system isn't hard to learn to play. You can have someone playing in a few minutes if you write out a character sheet so that the new player can easily see his options of what to do.

 

The system is hard to learn so that people can build effective characters, manipulate the timing rules for advantage, manipulate the blocking rules for advantage, learn when to hold actions, and all the messy stuff.

 

In my limited experience, regular people who aren't gamers like playing the game if you just sit them down and play a game.

 

But they for the most part don't want to actually learn anything about the game because there's so many moving parts.

 

So those people are never going to be in the market to buy HERO products and most likely aren't going to ever GM a HERO game. Most of them act allergic to the books if you offer to loan them one so they can read about the system or setting (even adults react like "OMG, you're not trying to give me homework!")

 

My daughter plays Champions and Fantasy Hero games and has GM'ed one. But she's not deeply interested in it as a game system. She plays and DM's in multiple online D&D campaigns: she can always find a game wanting new players and she doesn't have trouble explaining the rules or concepts. Stuff just kind of happens in D&D and it's not all crunchy like Fantasy Hero.

 

Personally, I love the crunch.

 

But I've seen video of people playing D&D.

 

Their system has printed little cards with the classes' powers on them. When the power is used and isn't available anymore, the player puts that card into his discard pile.

 

When it's that person's turn during combat, he shuffles through the cards looking to see if there's a power he can use then either does that or attacks with a weapon. For the most part, the players aren't even looking at their character sheets anymore.

 

For all practical purposes, the players are playing cards. And the players don't find that intimidating or confusing. As the adventure/combat moves along, it gets more and more simple because the players have fewer options left to them...and they can see that because they have fewer cards.

 

 

I'm not sure how to get HERO down to being that simplistic. But I've tried an additional stripped down version of the character sheet specifically for combat use which shows only the things which you need to know for combat. It's divided into sections for offense, defense, movement, and panic (things to do when things are about to otherwise go very badly like Dodge, Dive for Cover, Block, Roll with the Blow, remember to turn on your forcefield, etc.)

 

So you don't have your Running in a different spot than your Flight. Your PD from your characteristics is close to your Forcefield and your armored costume stats. Your Energy Blast is listed with your Offensive Strike.

 

If the character has a multipower, group the slots as offense, defense, and movement then build it so you can describe to an idiot how it works during combat. Then write that explanation on the character sheet.

      I may have missed it, what did you say your idea for bringing in new players was again?

[Duke Bushido]

9 hours ago, Tjack said:

      My problem is not with you so I’m sorry if it seemed that way.

 

It didn't, and I didnt take it that way: no offense taken or imagined. 

 

I simply thought that I needed to clarify my information more than I had.

 

Quote

I’m just getting frustrated with what I see as a lack of caring from the senior members of this board whether or not this company lives or dies.

 

Ah.  Sorry, my friend.  I'm not a senior anything around here:  I'm just very opinionated.     seriously though:  we all are.  The reason you didn't get a lot of reaction on that front is that weve been rehashing it for years, and the general consensus is "go write it."

 

No; I am not being short, and apologize if it sounds that way.  The fact is that there is, for all practical production terms, no company left.  It exists on paper, but the money is gone.  Jason's "Hall of Heroes" or whatever it is called is one of those last few gasps that may or may not breathe life back into the company.  Personally, I hope it does.  More importantly, though, it allows folks the chance to strut their stuff and for HERO to have things published under the brand.

 

Increased authorship; reduced vetting.  Anyone can write whatever it is that they think HERO needs, or whatever they just want HERO to have.

 

I am not being an ass when I say this:  we have already come to the conclusion, after years of this, that this program means the answer is always going to be "write it."

 

What's stopping you?

 

Dont get me wrong: I am sure something is wong, but I promise you I didn't just issue a challenge.  I know something is because I know what's stopping me; I know what's stopping Brian; I know what's stopping a few others. (I promise its not a lack of "want to.")

 

They are the same sort of thing that's stopping Jason.  It may be the same things stopping Steve; I don't know.  I have paranoid conspiracy theories about what's stopping Darren, and I suspect we all know what's stopping the guns-for-hire set as well.  I don't one-hundred percent know any of this, but I have reasonable theories.

 

And I am willing to bet there is something stopping you, too.  We are grown adults with enough responsibilites to make even playing in a game difficult, and to make writing one even more problematic.

 

And that's it.  That's why we don't bandy it around anymore: we know the solution, and only a precious one or two guys are in any position to do something about it.

 

It is the solution, though: write it.

 

Edited January 28, 2021 by Duke Bushido
touch screen-related mass of typos

[Hugh Neilson]

Can you play D&D or Pathfinder with an intro set in just a few minutes?  Sure.

 

But you will be playing a pre-fab character.  You will not roll or point-buy your stats, chose a race and a class, select from an array of archetypes within that class, choose variant racial abilities, pick traits and feats, assign skill points and favoured class bonuses, buy gear, select spells, etc. etc. etc.  And that's all for a first-level character.

 

You will select from 6 or 8 pre-fab characters and start the game.

 

Then you will stop to figure out how AC and to hit rolls work.  And how that spell functions.  And what this skill does, and what you need to roll.  You won't likely be using combat maneuvers and, of course, you will have no high level options.

 

And you will make mistakes along the way - just like we all did when we learned to play.  Sometimes, those mistakes were handed down the play group.

 

What Hero needs, first, is Games Powered by Hero.  Pull the curtain over the mechanics.  A Game Powered by Hero could easily have an introductory pack with half a dozen pre-fab characters (a sample of the choices in the game, and a tiny fraction of what you could make with the full system) and a short adventure to introduce this Game Powered by Hero.  They don't even need to know a Dwarven Wizard is possible in your fantasy Game Powered by Hero when all they do is start with the StarterPack.  They certainly don't need to know Hero would let them design other races, abilities, spells and monsters, much less that they could use it to build a sci-fi, post-apocalypse, spies, supers or pulp game.

[Duke Bushido]

Some months (a year now?) ago I announced intentions to re-write Robot Warriors.  I don't know if it will ever see the light of day (or even get done, now that Chris has published his conversion rules), or even get finished, time-wise.  Even if it does, will it make it any further than my G-drive?  I doubt it.

 

I have no software to format such a document; I can't do anything about layout or art injection; the computer I am on can't be updated any further (long story), and other things.

 

Mostly, though: time.  I have an _outline_, after all these months.  An outline!

 

Though it is my intention that "the system" be as hidden as it originally was, and the result be one thin book.

 

 

Sure: I know Mechs fall in and out of fashion, and are currently on the "out" cycle, and that this particular game is a poor choice to attract interest in the larger system, but hey: I'm not getting paid, so I am going to do something I want to see. 

 

 

[Tjack]

5 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

It didn't, and I didnt take it that way: no offense taken or imagined. 

 

I simoly thought that I needed to clarify my information more than I had.

 

 

Ah.  Sorry, my friend.  I'm not a senior anything around here:  I'm just very opinionated.     seriously though:  we all are.  The reason you didn't get a lot of reaction on that front is that weve been rehashing it for years, and the general consensus is "go write it."

 

no; I am not being short.  The fact is that there is, for all practical production terms, no company left.  It exists on paper, but the money is gone.  Jason"s Hall of Heroes or whatever it is called is one of those last few gasps that may or may not breathe life back into the company.  More importantly, though, it allos folks the chance to strut their stuff and for HERO to have things published under the brand.

 

increased authorship; reduced vetting.  Anyone can write whatever it is they think HERO needs, or whatever they just want HERO to have.

 

I am not being an ass when I say this:  we have already xomw to the conclusion, after years of this, that this program means the answer is always going to be "write it."

 

What's stopping you?

 

Dont get me wrong: I am sure something is; I disnt just issue a challenge.  I know somwthing is because I know whats stopping me; i know what's stopping Brian; I know whats stopping a few others. (I promise its not a lack of 'want to")

 

They are the same sort of thing thats stopping Jason.  May be the same things stopping Steve; I dont know.  I have paranoid conspiracy theories about whats stopping Darren, and I suspect I know whats stopping the guns for hire set as well.  I dont one-hundred percent, but I have theories.

 

And I am willing to bet there is something stopping you, too.  We are grown adults with enough reaponaibilites to make even playing in a game difficult, and to make writing one even more problematic.

 

And thats it.  Thats why we dont bandy it aroubd anymore: we know the solution, and only a preciius one or two guys are in any position to do something about it.

 

It is the solution, though: write it.

 

     *Thanks, at least someone said it all outright.*   
    I’d be proud and happy to contribute to an effort to save this game that’s given me so much. Friends, some of my most heartfelt memories, my Godchildren.  
    But I never had the number crunch skills the game requires, and currently health issues keep me from tasks that require long, sustained concentration. If someone ever asked me to contribute to such an effort I could write up histories and background for characters and help write/edit instructional sections. A look at my past posts show I’m still pretty good at putting together this kind of material.

    I am willing to put my money where my Grand Canyon sized mouth is but someone else would have to take the lead on any project. Just let me know what’s needed.

[assault]

A thought: most quick start versions of games seem to be about 8 pages long.

 

3e Champions had a three page long programmed adventure that ran new players through a basic combat. They also used a character sheet - a fourth page. Yes, it was 3e not 6e, but converting would be easy.

 

Hero in 2 Pages is two pages long.

 

That's six pages there.

 

Writing a quick start for Hero doesn't seem like an arduous task.

[Duke Bushido]

Okay, this time I am going to be that guy, if only because I recommended a lot until I actually tried to use it as a teaching aid:

 

HERO in 2 Pages is nothing more than an Order of Operations flow chart.  It contains no useful information as to actual "how to play" actually works.  Unless you already know how to play, or are at least familiar with the mechanics, H2P doesn't help with anything.

 

Certainly a Lite version could be written, but H2P isn't it.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

I’m just getting frustrated with what I see as a lack of caring from the senior members of this board whether or not this company lives or dies.

 

I don't know what "senior members of this board" refers to or even means in this context, but stuff is being done right now as you type here to make an introductory scenario with premade characters to help people start playing Champions.  its been discussed on this board for years, and a lot of concepts worked out, character types discussed, what sort of scenario should be used, etc.

 

 

[archer]

7 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

I don't know what "senior members of this board" refers to

 

 

 

I certainly have my senior moments....

[assault]

11 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Okay, this time I am going to be that guy, if only because I recommended a lot until I actually tried to use it as a teaching aid:

 

HERO in 2 Pages is nothing more than an Order of Operations flow chart.  It contains no useful information as to actual "how to play" actually works.  Unless you already know how to play, or are at least familiar with the mechanics, H2P doesn't help with anything.

 

Certainly a Lite version could be written, but H2P isn't it.

I take your point about the suitability of H2P.

However, if you look at Quick Starts for other games, they aren't Lite versions of the game. Instead, they are advertising.

 

One of the few "Lite" versions is GURPS Lite, which dates from way back when. That's not a useful model, especially since a HERO equivalent would compromise HERO Games' intellectual property.

Quick Starts in general give you just enough information to use a character sheet and roll some dice. Then it's all "what to do next", which conveniently happens to entail buying products...

[Duke Bushido]

Out of rep at the moment, 

 

but I agree: a GURPS-style "lite" model can't work so well for HERO because-- well, let's face it:  the system is all there is.

 

And at the risk of going over a path so well-worn that it threatens to become a gorge, a simple "intro to HERO" could include a small number of pregen characters (of whatever genre), the builds completely hidden, and rules on how to use what's on those sheets, and of course: combat and skill checks.

 

An appendix that breaks the builds down-- only those presented, and I'd suggest simple builds to keep it attractive-- and a map or two, each with a scenario, preferably that could be chained together into a short adventure.

 

That's probably the biggest reason I push for "one thin book" models of HERO: you don't have to display the builds, etc, in all their meticulous glory, for an intro product.  You're after the delivery of that first crack rock; they don't need the details of your supply chain until they are ready to set up their own, and history has demonstrated that dumping the whole chain on them and declaring "now put it together" has had less-than-desirable results.

 

 

[IndianaJoe3]

4 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

but I agree: a GURPS-style "lite" model can't work so well for HERO because-- well, let's face it:  the system is all there is.

 

I am working on Champions Lite. It is deliberately missing many elements of the Hero System (Adjustment Powers, Mental Powers, many Modifiers, Vehicles, many skills, etc), but the intent is that every Lite character will be mostly viable in a standard Champions game of the same power level. It will contain basic character templates, sample characters (built from the templates), and a short adventure.

 

The plan is that it will give potential players a free taste of the Hero System's potential, but also encourage them to upgrade to the full version.

[Asperion]

What you should do is basically what most other universal systems have done.  Make one core rule book.  This book will have only primary abilities,  skills,  and talents basically the things that all characters will require.  In addition,  it will provide the combat maneuvers,  how the game works,  and other required system details.  A supers supplement would have the powers section and other information needed for superpowered games, another one for espionage games, fantasy games gets their own,  etc. The core rule book should be limited to one book that is half to 2/3 the size of each one of the 6e books today. 

[Duke Bushido]

If skipping component and modifier builds, you can get it down to the size of Basic, no problem.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Without the powers and modifiers info I was able to squeeze Hero down to about 150 pages, including combat etc in Western Hero.  Powers and mods, frameworks etc take up a ton of space.

[Spence]

On 1/28/2021 at 6:31 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

Can you play D&D or Pathfinder with an intro set in just a few minutes?  Sure.

 

But you will be playing a pre-fab character.  You will not roll or point-buy your stats, chose a race and a class, select from an array of archetypes within that class, choose variant racial abilities, pick traits and feats, assign skill points and favoured class bonuses, buy gear, select spells, etc. etc. etc.  And that's all for a first-level character.

 

You will select from 6 or 8 pre-fab characters and start the game.

 

Exactly.

 

And here I kick the hornets nests and being out the mob with pitchforks and torches.

 

I have run intro games for Pathfinder, D&D5th, and Star Wars using the starter sets and Hero using my home built, all with pregens and it was easier for the players with Hero.  Why?  Hero's uses one single die mechanic for literally everything.  3d6 roll low.  

 

On 1/28/2021 at 6:31 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

What Hero needs, first, is Games Powered by Hero.  Pull the curtain over the mechanics.  A Game Powered by Hero could easily have an introductory pack with half a dozen pre-fab characters (a sample of the choices in the game, and a tiny fraction of what you could make with the full system) and a short adventure to introduce this Game Powered by Hero.

 

Better use of words than my feeble attempts.

 

This is another place I will invoke outrage.

 

There has never been a product for Hero built this way.  EVER.

 

But but but but there was Robot Warriors

But but but but there was Narosia

But but but but there was Monster Hunters International

 

And none of those titles fit the description.

They all contain the full design build rules, which in my opinion is the reason Hero is dying. 

 

A Robot Warriors stand alone powered by Hero game would not contain anything on how to buy/build/customize anything.

The only thing you customize by points would be characteristics and buying tailored skills. 

The equipment would be from a list for the setting. 

Mecha frames woudl be picked from a list, not 1/2's, 1/4's or anything.  Just a size and bottom line cost and capacity to hold stuff.  Also bought from a list WITH NO BUILD ANYTHING. 

 

Players could pick up the book and "build" their mechs and never even realize that build rules exist.  In the back, WAY BACK, buried in an appendix you can have the full wright ups with a note that being able to fully customize and expand things could be done by purchasing Champions Complete or Hero 6th. 

 

But Powered By Hero does not mean "include system core design rules".

23 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Without the powers and modifiers info I was able to squeeze Hero down to about 150 pages, including combat etc in Western Hero.  Powers and mods, frameworks etc take up a ton of space.

 

I'd am waiting to see that

[Tjack]

21 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

I don't know what "senior members of this board" refers to or even means in this context, but stuff is being done right now as you type here to make an introductory scenario with premade characters to help people start playing Champions.  its been discussed on this board for years, and a lot of concepts worked out, character types discussed, what sort of scenario should be used, etc.

 

 

   “Senior members” would be referring to the people on this site who actually have authority within the Hero Games company.  
    Duke Bushido has already explained to me in a previous post the actual status of the company. If you say that someone in an actual position to put out something with the company logo and not some well meaning guy off the street is on the case than I’ll back off and only offer good wishes and any help that would be appreciated.