Ninja-Bear Posted April 17, 2021 Report Share Posted April 17, 2021 Here an idea I’ll float out. Not sure how many people would buy this but, How about a PDF of legacy Characters with the original write ups through the editions? So say Starburst would have each of his listings as they were presented in each edition. His 1st edition would be shown as his first edition, no conversions. Pulsar would be shown from 1st (?) - 6th (I know he’s in Basic Rulebook). Niche? Yeah but I think it would be neat. Just an idea. Sketchpad, Steve and zslane 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sketchpad Posted April 17, 2021 Report Share Posted April 17, 2021 8 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said: Here an idea I’ll float out. Not sure how many people would buy this but, How about a PDF of legacy Characters with the original write ups through the editions? So say Starburst would have each of his listings as they were presented in each edition. His 1st edition would be shown as his first edition, no conversions. Pulsar would be shown from 1st (?) - 6th (I know he’s in Basic Rulebook). Niche? Yeah but I think it would be neat. Just an idea. I think I'd rather see a book called "Champions Legacy" that brought old characters back in an official format. Upgrade the backgrounds a bit, maybe have some new art and design. I realize that Tiger Paw Press does something similar, but I'd really like to see something in a more official capacity with a higher budget. Ninja-Bear and HeroGM 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted April 17, 2021 Report Share Posted April 17, 2021 27 minutes ago, Sketchpad said: I think I'd rather see a book called "Champions Legacy" that brought old characters back in an official format. Upgrade the backgrounds a bit, maybe have some new art and design. I realize that Tiger Paw Press does something similar, but I'd really like to see something in a more official capacity with a higher budget. I would go for that too! The thing is, I think it’s neat to see how far (and complex) the characters have come. I could see them still doing that and having each edition written in 6th. Sketchpad 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted April 17, 2021 Report Share Posted April 17, 2021 36 minutes ago, Sketchpad said: I think I'd rather see a book called "Champions Legacy" that brought old characters back in an official format. Upgrade the backgrounds a bit, maybe have some new art and design. I realize that Tiger Paw Press does something similar, but I'd really like to see something in a more official capacity with a higher budget. 4 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said: I would go for that too! The thing is, I think it’s neat to see how far (and complex) the characters have come. I could see them still doing that and having each edition written in 6th. maybe two versions one as if they were new (sort of direct translations of the originals) and 'Developed' versions Ninja-Bear and Sketchpad 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted April 17, 2021 Report Share Posted April 17, 2021 I wonder how well Champions Universe: News of the World sold back in the day. A chunk of that book was similar to this idea (updating existing characters to show their growth over time). Similar things have been in a couple other books too. I wonder whether they were strong sellers. Personally, I don't have any interest in a product that shows the same character in different editions of the rules, but I can see where it might make a good PDF product for folks who would dig it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted April 18, 2021 Report Share Posted April 18, 2021 I think a book that re-prints characters from all their editions is of great academic value, but probably of little practical game value. But that's what I find so compelling about it. As a student of the system since 2nd edition, I find the evolution of the game to be truly fascinating. There's probably no better way to see that evolution in action than through character design (and presentation). Jhamin and Ninja-Bear 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted April 18, 2021 Report Share Posted April 18, 2021 12 hours ago, Derek Hiemforth said: Personally, I don't have any interest in a product that shows the same character in different editions of the rules, but I can see where it might make a good PDF product for folks who would dig it. My initial post was also to be cheaper as a PDF. A decent copy and paste of each edition shouldn’t be too expensive to put in a PDF. And that’s why initially too I wasn’t worried about updating each version into 6th. I figure most people that are going to be interested in this would just convert if they wanted too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted April 18, 2021 Report Share Posted April 18, 2021 It seems that between 1st and 2nd, Goodman started to show his influence! And Geodesics were robbed! I always thought they were weak however compared to some of the originals they weren’t bad. I mean OG Starburst had only a 40 pt MP. He was also less than starting points too. But then the world (Heroes) got more powerful and except for Dystopia they were left behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted April 18, 2021 Report Share Posted April 18, 2021 My recollection of the Geodesics is that they appeared designed as starting characters, like Crusader and Starburst, where the other villains seemed designed as more powerful adversaries, often as one villain to fight a team of PCs. So 4 PCs with 8-10d6 attacks and 18-20 defenses facing off against a single villain with a 12d6 attack and 25-30 defenses. But the "solo villains" in 1e quickly became the standard players built their characters to, leaving a Starburst who could land and markedly lower his defenses to fire a 10d6 Blast and the Geodesics behind in favour of a 12d6 attack and 25-30 defenses becoming the standard. Duke Bushido and assault 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted April 18, 2021 Report Share Posted April 18, 2021 3 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said: My recollection of the Geodesics is that they appeared designed as starting characters, like Crusader and Starburst, where the other villains seemed designed as more powerful adversaries, often as one villain to fight a team of PCs. So 4 PCs with 8-10d6 attacks and 18-20 defenses facing off against a single villain with a 12d6 attack and 25-30 defenses. But the "solo villains" in 1e quickly became the standard players built their characters to, leaving a Starburst who could land and markedly lower his defenses to fire a 10d6 Blast and the Geodesics behind in favour of a 12d6 attack and 25-30 defenses becoming the standard. That seems to be what I’m finding out. Even though the 3 sample characters in 2ed are built as 200 pts. I believe I saw the suggested starting points are supposed to be 225 pts. At those levels 20-25 pts make a big difference! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted April 18, 2021 Report Share Posted April 18, 2021 Plus all the changes weren’t bad. Green Dragon stayed the same points but dropped Disguise for Acrobatics. Which is more in keeping with his background. Still seeing Crusader without his (to me) iconic shield is mind blowing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sketchpad Posted April 19, 2021 Report Share Posted April 19, 2021 I was thinking about what I'd like to see for Hero last night and I realized a big book of Talents (and maybe Perks) would be pretty useful. Even if they were Powers-As-Talents, I really think a book of this level would be handy. Each chapter could dive into one of the big concepts (Fantasy, Action, Supers, Sci-Fi, Horror, etc.) with a bunch of new Talents to choose from. Some may emulate what other games called "Class Abilities," while some may be original to the Hero System. Size could be around the HS Skills book that came out. Black Rose, Derek Hiemforth and Tywyll 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spence Posted April 19, 2021 Report Share Posted April 19, 2021 5 hours ago, Sketchpad said: I was thinking about what I'd like to see for Hero last night and I realized a big book of Talents (and maybe Perks) would be pretty useful. Even if they were Powers-As-Talents, I really think a book of this level would be handy. Each chapter could dive into one of the big concepts (Fantasy, Action, Supers, Sci-Fi, Horror, etc.) with a bunch of new Talents to choose from. Some may emulate what other games called "Class Abilities," while some may be original to the Hero System. Size could be around the HS Skills book that came out. That is actually a great idea and one that would be useful, not only for experienced players but new ones as well. While they achieved their objective in sanitizing everything down to the lowest possible building block, such as Secret ID being a social complication. They forget that it is easier for players to just call it Secret ID. Not precisely the same thing as your thought, but close enough for this thread. A book of "Talent" builds would be extremely useful for people who just want to play today and get into esoteric build theory later. Sketchpad, Norm and Black Rose 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted April 19, 2021 Report Share Posted April 19, 2021 9 hours ago, Sketchpad said: I was thinking about what I'd like to see for Hero last night and I realized a big book of Talents (and maybe Perks) would be pretty useful. Even if they were Powers-As-Talents, I really think a book of this level would be handy. Each chapter could dive into one of the big concepts (Fantasy, Action, Supers, Sci-Fi, Horror, etc.) with a bunch of new Talents to choose from. Some may emulate what other games called "Class Abilities," while some may be original to the Hero System. Size could be around the HS Skills book that came out. I like this idea. I'd suggest only putting the Talent descriptions and the critical "how this actually works in play" information in the main part of the book. The "under the hood" details of how the Talent was constructed from other Powers and such, I would put in an appendix at the back of the book (or maybe even put it in a free PDF download for folks who are interested, and don't put it in the book itself at all). zslane, Spence, Sketchpad and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sketchpad Posted April 20, 2021 Report Share Posted April 20, 2021 5 hours ago, Spence said: That is actually a great idea and one that would be useful, not only for experienced players but new ones as well. While they achieved their objective in sanitizing everything down to the lowest possible building block, such as Secret ID being a social complication. They forget that it is easier for players to just call it Secret ID. Not precisely the same thing as your thought, but close enough for this thread. A book of "Talent" builds would be extremely useful for people who just want to play today and get into esoteric build theory later. Thanks! 51 minutes ago, Derek Hiemforth said: I like this idea. I'd suggest only putting the Talent descriptions and the critical "how this actually works in play" information in the main part of the book. The "under the hood" details of how the Talent was constructed from other Powers and such, I would put in an appendix at the back of the book (or maybe even put it in a free PDF download for folks who are interested, and don't put it in the book itself at all). Thanks! And I totally agree. I think the builds being available as a DLC would be awesome. Spence 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spence Posted April 20, 2021 Report Share Posted April 20, 2021 1 hour ago, Derek Hiemforth said: I like this idea. I'd suggest only putting the Talent descriptions and the critical "how this actually works in play" information in the main part of the book. The "under the hood" details of how the Talent was constructed from other Powers and such, I would put in an appendix at the back of the book (or maybe even put it in a free PDF download for folks who are interested, and don't put it in the book itself at all). Emphasis mine Yes, yes, YES! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted April 20, 2021 Report Share Posted April 20, 2021 13 minutes ago, Spence said: Emphasis mine Yes, yes, YES! This is what Champions Complete did, and it seemed to work fine, as far as I've ever heard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spence Posted April 20, 2021 Report Share Posted April 20, 2021 10 minutes ago, Derek Hiemforth said: This is what Champions Complete did, and it seemed to work fine, as far as I've ever heard. Actually yes it did. It was one of the things that I liked about CC. Derek Hiemforth 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCUBA Hero Posted April 21, 2021 Report Share Posted April 21, 2021 On 4/19/2021 at 7:18 PM, Derek Hiemforth said: I like this idea. I'd suggest only putting the Talent descriptions and the critical "how this actually works in play" information in the main part of the book. The "under the hood" details of how the Talent was constructed from other Powers and such, I would put in an appendix at the back of the book (or maybe even put it in a free PDF download for folks who are interested, and don't put it in the book itself at all). Yes! Very similar to how I make character sheets for convention games; effects are on the sheet, I have the build in case it becomes relevant. I ran "Nazi Death Zombies of the Congo!" this way. What the player cares about the elephant rifle: It hits *hard*. Accurate at long range. Two shots, then takes time to reload. So make those shots count. Spence, Sketchpad, Derek Hiemforth and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sketchpad Posted April 23, 2021 Report Share Posted April 23, 2021 On 4/19/2021 at 7:18 PM, Derek Hiemforth said: I like this idea. I'd suggest only putting the Talent descriptions and the critical "how this actually works in play" information in the main part of the book. The "under the hood" details of how the Talent was constructed from other Powers and such, I would put in an appendix at the back of the book (or maybe even put it in a free PDF download for folks who are interested, and don't put it in the book itself at all). On 4/21/2021 at 6:57 PM, SCUBA Hero said: Yes! Very similar to how I make character sheets for convention games; effects are on the sheet, I have the build in case it becomes relevant. I ran "Nazi Death Zombies of the Congo!" this way. What the player cares about the elephant rifle: It hits *hard*. Accurate at long range. Two shots, then takes time to reload. So make those shots count. All this talk about stat format makes me wonder if there's a better stat block for Hero. Think I'll start a discussion of it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legendsmiths Posted August 29, 2021 Report Share Posted August 29, 2021 On 2/14/2021 at 10:56 PM, Hugh Neilson said: I’m looking to Book 1 of a Game Powered by Hero, not necessarily a micro-starter book. Hero is not going to compete as a “gamer’s first game” any time soon. But my numbers were definitely the highest, not the lowest, I would consider. I envision much less advancement, though, with no new spells, powers, etc. And limited advancement in the intro sessions. More breadth, less depth, so we are not adding new races, vocations, etc. In the next few books, but providing advancement options as well as the new adventures, and possibly some new locations. But adding four to eight full prefabs would also make sense. Grab and play, if desired. Or pop in a micro-book that introduces the full “Powered by HERO” game which starts with the book I described. I'm sorry I missed this conversation (having written the Narosia book). My original pitch to DOJ for Narosia was to be an all-in-one intro to fantasy hero with all of the systematic decisions already made (magic works like THIS, equipment works like THIS, etc.). We succeeded on that point. However, I think it ended up being too much. The tenets of my design philosophy were: The world needed to make sense. It is a deconstruction of dungeon crawling. Why dungeons? Why tougher monsters the deeper you go? Why don't the monsters overwhelm the surface world? Hand players a ready to play game powered by the Hero System. The GM needed to be able to easily keep the history of the world in their head. Not the details, but the framework. What could have been better was the accessibility of it all. It's absolutely a fair criticism that maybe it's too much. That is the consequence of trying to make it complete (which it isn't, actually). I developed the Quickstart character building system (and have a generic Fantasy Hero version of it) to facilitate rapid character development. At cons I would run a Narosia Quickstart: build a character in 45 min and then play for 1:15 (2 hour slot) or 3:15 (4 hour slot). I was always successful. Absent such a system, which is fairly comprehensive in its character options, you end up with classic decision paralysis unless you know how to play Hero. Still, there is a lot there. I built 2 (arguably 4) magic systems for the game. The feel of each system was exactly what I wanted, and conceptually a Skill based magic system where you pay only 1 point for a spell proficiency seems simple enough. Looking at it now, there is a lot of detail (which provided 100s of hours of fun for us), but that detail can still be overwhelming. In many ways I traded one set of complexity (building Hero powers) with a different one. The magic systems are still complex, but in a different way from core Hero. Is that a positive or negative? Entirely subjective. I still run Narosia, and learned a lot from writing it. I have worked on Narosia 2.0 because I see how it can be better, simpler, and more unique and inclusive. There are constructs in the book (like race) that don't need to be. The cosmology can be simpler and cleaner. Now, even with greater simplicity, does that serve the Fantasy Hero Quickstart objective? No, not really. I wanted it to be that, but no 500 page rulebook can be that. Ideally, something with an edited Hero System Basic ruleset + fantasy character building + basic magic + adventure is what I'd like to see. My Fantasy Hero Quick Start is 38 pages with very little padding (that covers characters, magic, and equipment). Add that to 138 pages of basic + 32 page adventure and that's a 200 page book. Here's the question I would pose: why make such a product? I dreamed once of winning the hearts and minds of gamers over to Hero to have the type of gaming experiences I've been lucky to have. I don't think that's realistic. Hero does what it does in its way and those that engage with it will like it or not. At the end of the day if the 4-6 players at the table don't engage with it, the point is kind of moot. I think we can always win over 1-2 players at any table, but winning them all is really difficult, and everyone has to WANT to play the game that operates the way Hero does or the campaign fails. Especially when player expectations of online tools, online content, and accessibility is such that the legacy of Hero I don't believe can match. Nor should it. I've got 3 active projects right now: 1. Narosia 2.0 2. NOVA6 3. Atomic Sky Narosia 2.0 and Atomic Sky drove the development of NOVA6. I'm super happy with that game and I run it weekly. It's just about ready to launch (and you can find it on the website in its most recent version). It isn't Hero, but it is a descendant of Hero. It addresses the accessibility aspect, with rapid time to play that I feel doesn't lose much from a fantasy hero experience (at least). We finished the Narosia grand campaign in NOVA6 (meaning the original playtesters going through Village of Gillkas, to the Library of Baradahm, and finally Act 3, all in NOVA6) and it works. I will say, however, that it is a different experience than the Hero version of Narosia, all good, but not necessarily "better" (depending on what you want out of the game). NOVA6, especially in its more detailed version (which we call NOVA6 Expanded and aren't moving forward with), was tailored for Narosia and Atomic Sky. However, I didn't like how it played for Atomic Sky (dieselpunk atomic apocalypse). So... Atomic Sky drifted into other directions, other systems. At one point it was going to be its own system (*shudder*, like I need to make ANOTHER system). It was in D&D 5E (and working, and would, I think, be attractive to a wide audience there). But I didn't like it. I only ever really liked it in Hero. Years ago I did a full conversion (well, full-ish) of Fallout and S.T.A.L.K.E.R., both of which I ran on the con circuit for years and had a ton of fun (and are still on my website). So, I've come back around to Atomic Sky being in Hero and, thinking through it, having it be essentially PA Hero 6E. However, I'm not going to replicate all that material since I think it is largely unnecessary. What I will do is use that material to make a complete setting book (no integrated rules), make the campaign decisions about how powers and such work, and then build out scavenging and campaign guidelines for what Atomic Sky is about. I want power-armor character, scrappy snipers, monstrous mutants, synths, high tech, and low life, scrabbling for survival with hope for a higher purpose. Hero GMs can build on that material (or not). I've learned a lot on this journey, and I'm happy to be focusing on Hero again. This time my objective is different: I want to make something I, as a Hero fan, enjoy playing and hope to bring some of you along with me. I'm not trying to win over non-hero players (like I was with Narosia). And this experience will likely result in a Narosia 2.0 that is also more of a service to this community rather than tilting at the windmills of winning over D&D players to Hero. They'll join us if they want, because they see us smiling, shouting, and having fun at that "table over there" rather than challenging them that they are engaging in wrongfun and that we know better. Ninja-Bear, Sketchpad, archer and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroGM Posted August 29, 2021 Report Share Posted August 29, 2021 Going back to Champion's Legacy for a second. I'd do it like Strike Force where we see heroes and Villian's at the start and then a modern version along with their goals and what they've done. A villian (or hero) may start out wanting one thing and figure out he's really wanting something else. Maybe he went good for awhile and is still there or gone back to his old ways. It's almost be interesting to see a Champion's:Generations book (after John Byrne's Superman/Batman) book that shows how heroes during the different ages are along with people who picked up their mantle later on. Sketchpad and Duke Bushido 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Bushido Posted August 29, 2021 Report Share Posted August 29, 2021 On 4/23/2021 at 11:42 AM, Sketchpad said: All this talk about stat format makes me wonder if there's a better stat block for Hero. I don't know if it's what you're looking for, but I find that the layouts in The HERO System Book of Templates are the best-laid-out "Character Sheets" in a couple of decades. That whole book is great: possibly the best NPC book ever published under the HERO umbrella. Joe Walsh, Amorkca and Sketchpad 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sketchpad Posted August 31, 2021 Report Share Posted August 31, 2021 On 8/29/2021 at 12:31 PM, Duke Bushido said: I don't know if it's what you're looking for, but I find that the layouts in The HERO System Book of Templates are the best-laid-out "Character Sheets" in a couple of decades. That whole book is great: possibly the best NPC book ever published under the HERO umbrella. How are they any different than the previous 6e stat blocks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Bushido Posted August 31, 2021 Report Share Posted August 31, 2021 everything is on one page; there are no distractions-- no weird borders, no split pages. I just liked them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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