How to build a 'leaky' damage resistance?

[Panpiper]

I am about to join a Fantasy Hero campaign. The Campaign Guidelines permit me to buy up to 5PD/ED resistant that would be stackable with worn armor. I want to take this, but I want to define it as "Only a flesh wound", whereby while it's normal stun is not affected (it still stops 5), half the body from any killing attack that reaches this defense will always get through. I want it to stop the full 5 points of body if sufficient body reaches it.

 

So for example, if he is wearing full plate for 8 Def, and he gets hit for 12 killing body damage, he'll take 2 body with the additional resistant defense stopping 2. If he got hit for 18 killing body damage, the maximum of 5 resistant defense would apply and he'd take 5. If he got hit for 20 body killing, 7 would get through.

 

Basically I just want him to be harder to kill, and be able to absorb more stun, but not impervious to smaller attacks with regards the body damage.

 

How would you build and write this? I don't think it's worth more than a -1/4 limitation, as he still gets full effect from the non-resistant part of the PD/ED.

[eepjr24]

When looking at costing for limitations I try to figure out how much of the time it will affect the outcome of the attack. Here, I would say that the limitation is more powerful than your opponent buying penetrating on their 3d6 killing attack (on average). So that is a significant amount (22 points), but defenses always cost way less, so a value of half that (and only for the body, so actually a quarter or so) would be in the right range.

 

Another way to figure is using the limited power chart. I think it is not affecting you more than half the time since you have other armor and it's a window of 5 body. DC's in FH heroic are going to be in the 6-10 range so I think this will come into effect more than 1/4 of the time. I'd say somewhere around a third or 2/5ths of the time seems right, which would put me at a -1/2 limitation. That's around 5 points saved total, which works out to around what I speculated from the amount it would cost to defeat.

 

If the average DC's will be greater than 6-10 then you can probably bump it down to -1/4 since it will always be used at full in that case.

 

- E

[Ninja-Bear]

It sounds like a form of Side Effect- must let X amount pass in Y condition.  Normally I don’t try to question the Poster’s reasoning however if the GM is allowing you to bump up DEF then perhaps you wouldn’t want a leaky Defense. From your description it sounds like it might be a deadly game as is.

[Steve]

I suggest building it this way.

Buy the first 2-3 points of defense normally (or maybe toss on a limitation like Non-Persistent), then buy 2-3 more points with an additional limitation “lets 1st point of BODY damage through” to get pretty much the effect you want. That’s the limitation used in a Champions power write-up “You Only Nicked Me” that I like using on some builds like you describe.

[Jhamin]

On 2/7/2021 at 1:40 PM, Steve said:

Buy the first 2-3 points of defense normally (or maybe toss on a limitation like Non-Persistent), then buy 2-3 more points with an additional limitation “lets 1st point of BODY damage through” to get pretty much the effect you want. That’s the limitation used in a Champions power write-up “You Only Nicked Me” that I like using on some builds like you describe.

This was my thought as well.  I had a PC in a Pulp Hero game who played a big Prussian with this power bought as a combat luck style "too tough to care" type power.  He was supposed to be the guy who was so burly he could get shot & only notice later.

 

His normal defenses applied, then his combat luck applied, then if any body got through his "too tough to care" power let one body through then stopped the next 4.

[Hugh Neilson]

The challenge of this limitation is that it will be enormously campaign-dependent.  If the character did not have these extra defenses, how often would he take BOD damage?

 

 - pretty much never?  Then the limitation is pretty much never going to reduce the value of the extra defenses.  This would be, for example, a Super in a 12DC game who already has 20 rDEF and is tacking this on top.

 

 - all the time?  OK, now perhaps we have a limitation.  Would a typical attack get enough BOD through that he would normally take 5 or less BOD from the hit, so that limitation really means half of the defenses may as well not be resistant at all?  Or would a typical attack blow 10+ BOD past his defenses so he will typically reduce BOD damage by the full 5 points anyway (bringing us back to "not very limiting").

 

Without knowing how bloody the game will be in general, and how likely this character in particular is to take BOD past his other defenses, it's pretty tough to value the limitation.

 

Let's approach this from an alternate build.  If he made half of the defenses non-resistant, that would be a -1/2 limitation on half the defenses, and they would never block KA BOD.  It seems pretty tough, with that in mind, to think that this limitation would be worth more than -1/4 on the full defenses.

[Panpiper]

I am playing in a supers game right now where my flying tank has a limitation similar to this. The limitation my tank took was that one quarter of the killing body damage would get through. I gave it a -1/4 limitation. Last game she was down to half body. In at least one game, the entire group was forced to flee because we were all down to shreds of stun, with my character at that moment having all but one body left. There is absolutely no question that that limitation was NOT gratuitous, if anything, she didn't get enough for it.

 

Lilith Lefey's Character Sheet

 

In the case of this question, it was posed in the context of a 175 point fantasy character that would typically be wearing def seven armor, and this would be additional defense. Ordinary 2d6 weapons wielded by mooks would probably only occasionally reach the defense. Bosses and named enemies easily would with 3d6 KAs. The idea here is to reduce the body loss but not force the game to up the dice just to do damage. In this case I think half body for a -1/4 is just about right, but I wanted feedback. The GM already approved it by the way without blinking an eye.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Honestly this reads a lot more like Damage Reduction to me.

[Ninja-Bear]

4 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Honestly this reads a lot more like Damage Reduction to me.

Agreed. Or if the GM is willing, how about Damage Negation that only works on 3D6K and above? 

[IndianaJoe3]

One situation that hasn't been mentioned is Linked attacks where the first must do BODY for the second to have an effect (poisoned knives, etc). The character would be more vulnerable to those attacks.

[unclevlad]

22 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Honestly this reads a lot more like Damage Reduction to me.

 

Yeah, this is the natural mechanism.  Also, note that Damage Reduction can be bought Body Only.  I'd also probably allow either:

 

a)  for 20 points, 50% DR vs. killing damage only 

b)  30 points for 50% resistant DR, but -1/2 for only resistant defense.

Net costs are pretty much the same.  20 points with the 1/2 limit for Body Only would be 13;  30 points with -1 limit would be 15.  The difference won't change if there are additional limitations applied, at least up to another -1's worth.

[Panpiper]

So, I have here a character with:

 

10PD/10ED Natural
5 PD/5 ED Resistant Defense
Physical Damage Reduction, Resistant, 50%
Energy Damage Reduction, Resistant, 50%

 

This build takes more damage from smaller attacks, less damage from really big attacks. All is well. No GM would bat an eye at this build. She also bounces small bullets off her chest, laughing at the feeble pop guns of street punks and police officers.

 

However I do not want that. I want a character that takes damage from smaller attacks, that does NOT "bounce bullets off her chest". I want a character that respects the weapons of street punks and police officers because they can do body damage to her. So I define the resistant defense as leaky, always lets half through. This saves me three whole character points! I am clearly being abusive with my build and character conception.

 

Instead you would require me to SPEND, VASTLY MORE points to PURCHASE the extra vulnerability!!!??? Why? Because Hero is a rigid system in which all possible effects must conform in exactly one way to the published powers. No limitations may be taken on anything in a manner which might resemble some other power definition.

 

Are you guys effing serious?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Just damage reduction will do that.  You take damage from all attacks, just not as much.  50% means take half as much from all attacks, that's literally what the power is for.

[Hugh Neilson]

The challenge of Damage Reduction is in the pricing.

 

If I'm in a 12 DC Supers game, I might have 22 PD and 22 ED.  That costs 40 points, and an average 12d6 hit will pass 20 STUN past my defenses.  Make the extra defenses resistant, and now I pay 60 points.

 

For the same 60 points, I can have 2 PD and ED, and 50% Physical and Energy damage reduction.  I'll take more BOD.  Small attacks will do more STUN, and bigger ones will do less.  This feels reasonably priced.

 

But in an 8DC game, where I might have 15 PD and ED, 6 Resistant, I pay 32 points.  A typical attack gets 13 STUN past my defenses, and I'll take a bit of BOD.

 

Paying 60 for the same Damage Reduction, and sticking to 2 PD and ED, a typical attack still gets 13 past my defenses, but I spent almost twice the CP.  That pricing doesn't feel quite as equitable.

[Panpiper]

14 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Paying 60 for the same Damage Reduction, and sticking to 2 PD and ED, a typical attack still gets 13 past my defenses, but I spent almost twice the CP.  That pricing doesn't feel quite as equitable.

 

True, but it does depend a lot on how you pay for it. As a for instance, here's a character I am currently building for a Fantasy Hero game using pretty much the standard Fantasy Hero guidelines. She's got 50% resistant damage reduction and is a 175 point character.

Sheherazade.pdf

[Hugh Neilson]

Change each spell to +20 rDEF and how much less damage would the character take?  A Damage Negation variant could also be assessed.  That's without any extra tweaks like reducing the Resistant component, since 28 rDEF is not likely essential, to bump up the PD/ED component. 

 

There is also the added advantage of using the "1/3 of cost" FH variant, which is a pretty sweet deal when applied to abilities intended to be constant in nature. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

 

The challenge of Damage Reduction is in the pricing.

 

 

I agree, and either it or Damage Negation need a serious reexamination for cost and effect.  Maybe both.

[Hugh Neilson]

Any flat priced ability is challenging when most scale, especially if we compare, say, 150 point low powered Heroic characters to 750 point Galactic Champions. 

 

In a 6DC game, buy +25 PD and ED, 10 resistant, and compare the character's performance to one with 50% Damage Reduction.

 

27 PD will block most 6d6 normal attacks entirely and 10 rDEF will block out most of a 2d6 KA.  The Damage Reduction is pathetic by comparison.

 

Now let's start with 15 rDEF each in a 15 DC game.  40 DEF, 25 Resistant will blunt KA BOD , with 12.5 STUN passing through from an average Normal attack.  15 rDEF will see a bit of BOD damage pass through - 5d6 wKA is 1 BOD from each average hit.  And 18-19 STUN is still getting through as well.

 

Unless the attack blows past campaign norms, or the norms are extremely high, Damage Reduction is not likely to be an optimal choice.

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think you have to build for a target point range and let people who break that deal with it themselves (or, maybe, make an EPIC HERO sourcebook that deals with those issues?).  Anything from 50-400 points up to 75 active points is going to work pretty well as written, I think, for the most part.  And if you build to that as the proper range, then you can tweak stuff like Damage Reduction.