RSR on an End Reserve

[Mr. R]

So I want to use a RSR magic system, but I want the Roll to not affect the spell, it goes off, but the End Battery.  In essence the Roll is to see if you have harnessed the energy correctly.  Make the roll and end usage is normal.  Fail the roll and end usage goes up.

 

First- is this a Lim on the Spell or the End Battery?

 

Second- Do I make it as a Side Effect (3d6 to End Battery) or a more sliding scale based on how much it failed by?

 

Third- Are there any other considerations I am not accounting for?

[drunkonduty]

Hmmm.

 

First - I'd put the lim on the END Battery.

Second - Sliding scale of horrible side effects sounds pretty cool to me. 

Third - nothing comes to mind.

 

Hope that helps. 🙂

[pawsplay]

If you put it on the battery, there is a chance the character wastes their action.

[HeroGM]

I'd use the burnout option of RSR.

[eepjr24]

Hrm. It does not sounds like you are affecting the END battery or the spell. Both will work. All that is in question is how much END it costs.

 

Here are some ways to build that. It does require a bit of initial math.

 

Variable END Cost: 10x END, Requires a Roll: 11- . For every point you miss the roll by, move up the Increase END chart (x2,x3,x4, etc.) 

I just took the odds of each value on 3d6 and you would average to a x2 END (well, 1.9583), so we call the limitation -1/2.

 

If you move to 10- it's about midway from  x2 to x3 END (2.458) so call it -3/4 limitation. At 9- it goes to x3 END (3.083) so call it -1 limitation.

 

If you'd like to play with the math, here is the chart I was playing with, copy and paste to excel or similar.

 

Roll	%	Probability	END MULT	END AVG
3 or less	0.46%	0.46%	1	0.0046
4 or less	1.85%	1.39%	1	0.0139
5 or less	4.63%	2.78%	1	0.0278
6 or less	9.26%	4.63%	1	0.0463
7 or less	16.20%	6.94%	1	0.0694
8 or less	25.93%	9.73%	1	0.0973
9 or less	37.50%	11.57%	1	0.1157
10 or less	50.00%	12.50%	1	0.125
11 or less	62.50%	12.50%	2	0.25
12 or less	74.07%	11.57%	3	0.3471
13 or less	83.80%	9.73%	4	0.3892
14 or less	90.74%	6.94%	5	0.347
15 or less	95.37%	4.63%	6	0.2778
16 or less	98.15%	2.78%	7	0.1946
17 or less	99.54%	1.39%	8	0.1112
18 or less	100.00%	0.46%	9	0.0414
				2.4583

[Mr. R]

19 hours ago, pawsplay said:

If you put it on the battery, there is a chance the character wastes their action.

 

How so?

[eepjr24]

Either way you can lose your action, actually.

 

Quote

Regardless of the type of roll used, a character always makes Required Rolls after all other preparations. For example, he must spend the END for a power regardless of whether the Required Roll succeeds; if the power is an attack, attempting to use it is an Attack Action even if the power fails to activate. Making a Required Roll is an Action that takes no time that’s part of the overall attempt to activate or use an ability; if the roll fails, the character can’t change his declared Action.

Of course, if you are making this a feature of our magic system you can change how that works if you like as the GM.

 

- E

[Mr. R]

8 hours ago, eepjr24 said:

Hrm. It does not sounds like you are affecting the END battery or the spell. Both will work. All that is in question is how much END it costs.

 

Here are some ways to build that. It does require a bit of initial math.

 

Variable END Cost: 10x END, Requires a Roll: 11- . For every point you miss the roll by, move up the Increase END chart (x2,x3,x4, etc.) 

I just took the odds of each value on 3d6 and you would average to a x2 END (well, 1.9583), so we call the limitation -1/2.

 

If you move to 10- it's about midway from  x2 to x3 END (2.458) so call it -3/4 limitation. At 9- it goes to x3 END (3.083) so call it -1 limitation.

 

If you'd like to play with the math, here is the chart I was playing with, copy and paste to excel or similar.

 

Roll	%	Probability	END MULT	END AVG
3 or less	0.46%	0.46%	1	0.0046
4 or less	1.85%	1.39%	1	0.0139
5 or less	4.63%	2.78%	1	0.0278
6 or less	9.26%	4.63%	1	0.0463
7 or less	16.20%	6.94%	1	0.0694
8 or less	25.93%	9.73%	1	0.0973
9 or less	37.50%	11.57%	1	0.1157
10 or less	50.00%	12.50%	1	0.125
11 or less	62.50%	12.50%	2	0.25
12 or less	74.07%	11.57%	3	0.3471
13 or less	83.80%	9.73%	4	0.3892
14 or less	90.74%	6.94%	5	0.347
15 or less	95.37%	4.63%	6	0.2778
16 or less	98.15%	2.78%	7	0.1946
17 or less	99.54%	1.39%	8	0.1112
18 or less	100.00%	0.46%	9	0.0414
				2.4583

 

 

I don't think this goes to what I was thinking.

 

Malus casts his Seeking Fire Bolts.  As he casts the spell he realizes that he has grabbed the Winds of Magic too fast and he winces as he feels his Mana Pool bleeds to much energy and much of it is wasted as his spell goes off!

 

Game Speak

Malus is casting his RKA Homing (45 AP).  He makes a RSR to see if he can harness the required energy to fuel his spell.  As he fails the RSR, the spell is still cast but rather that the 4 End that he would usually spend he spends 8 ( X2).  If he had failed by more it may have been more (possibly x3 or x4).  His spell goes off regardless, it is the fuel that suffers.

 

SO---

Is this a RSR on the FB with a Side Effect to the End Battery?

-or-

A RSR on the End Battery (where the modifier to the roll is from the spell(?), so how is that stated out?)

-or- 

Something else entirely?

 

 

[eepjr24]

23 minutes ago, Mr. R said:

I don't think this goes to what I was thinking.

 

Malus casts his Seeking Fire Bolts.  As he casts the spell he realizes that he has grabbed the Winds of Magic too fast and he winces as he feels his Mana Pool bleeds to much energy and much of it is wasted as his spell goes off!

 

Game Speak

Malus is casting his RKA Homing (45 AP).  He makes a RSR to see if he can harness the required energy to fuel his spell.  As he fails the RSR, the spell is still cast but rather that the 4 End that he would usually spend he spends 8 ( X2).  If he had failed by more it may have been more (possibly x3 or x4).  His spell goes off regardless, it is the fuel that suffers.

 

SO---

Is this a RSR on the FB with a Side Effect to the End Battery?

-or-

A RSR on the End Battery (where the modifier to the roll is from the spell(?), so how is that stated out?)

-or- 

Something else entirely?

I bought it as a Increased Endurance cost on the spell (FB in this case) that has an RSR on the Increased Endurance limitation. Not exactly, but close enough. Basically, I looked at the likelihood of missing the roll based on flat activation roll. The example you use above replaces that with a skill roll, which makes the math a lot more variable. You'd have to pick an average or some other method of determining what the normal skill roll would be. But it will vary, since Malus can cast his FB spell as 1d6 (22 AP) or a 2d6 (45 AP) which would be -2 or -4 to his roll (assuming he uses -1 per 10 AP instead of -1 per 5 or -1 per 20.)

 

Personally, I would just call it a wash and use the -1/2 value since it is unlikely that most players will let their roll get below 11- for their most commonly used spells. So for -1/2 you make an activation roll. If you miss the roll, the spell still goes off, but for each 1 you miss it by the END multiplier goes up. Miss your roll by 1? 8 END. Miss it by 4? 20 END. Cesar save you if you miss it by 7 (probably rolled an 18), that is 32 END gone bye bye bye.

 

For a less harsh version, call it a -1/4 limitation and for every 2 (or part thereof) you miss your roll by the END multiplier goes up. So miss it by 3 or 4 and that's 3x END.

 

If you are feeling generous you can also have spells cost 1/2 END if they make their roll by half or more.

 

- E 

Edited February 12, 2021 by eepjr24
Added additional options.

[Mr. R]

4 hours ago, eepjr24 said:

I bought it as a Increased Endurance cost on the spell (FB in this case) that has an RSR on the Increased Endurance limitation. Not exactly, but close enough. Basically, I looked at the likelihood of missing the roll based on flat activation roll. The example you use above replaces that with a skill roll, which makes the math a lot more variable. You'd have to pick an average or some other method of determining what the normal skill roll would be. But it will vary, since Malus can cast his FB spell as 1d6 (22 AP) or a 2d6 (45 AP) which would be -2 or -4 to his roll (assuming he uses -1 per 10 AP instead of -1 per 5 or -1 per 20.)

 

Personally, I would just call it a wash and use the -1/2 value since it is unlikely that most players will let their roll get below 11- for their most commonly used spells. So for -1/2 you make an activation roll. If you miss the roll, the spell still goes off, but for each 1 you miss it by the END multiplier goes up. Miss your roll by 1? 8 END. Miss it by 4? 20 END. Cesar save you if you miss it by 7 (probably rolled an 18), that is 32 END gone bye bye bye.

 

For a less harsh version, call it a -1/4 limitation and for every 2 (or part thereof) you miss your roll by the END multiplier goes up. So miss it by 3 or 4 and that's 3x END.

 

If you are feeling generous you can also have spells cost 1/2 END if they make their roll by half or more.

 

- E 

I like.  Thank you!

[IndianaJoe3]

On 2/10/2021 at 6:03 PM, Mr. R said:

So I want to use a RSR magic system, but I want the Roll to not affect the spell, it goes off, but the End Battery.  In essence the Roll is to see if you have harnessed the energy correctly.  Make the roll and end usage is normal.  Fail the roll and end usage goes up.

 

First- is this a Lim on the Spell or the End Battery?

 

Second- Do I make it as a Side Effect (3d6 to End Battery) or a more sliding scale based on how much it failed by?

 

Third- Are there any other considerations I am not accounting for?

 

From my perspective, this is a Side Effect on the spell. If the caster fails his roll, he uses up more of his mana pool. I'd call it a -1/4 Limitation, but the exact value depends on how badly depleted the pool would be by a failed roll.

[theinfn8]

On 2/12/2021 at 9:45 AM, IndianaJoe3 said:

 

From my perspective, this is a Side Effect on the spell. If the caster fails his roll, he uses up more of his mana pool. I'd call it a -1/4 Limitation, but the exact value depends on how badly depleted the pool would be by a failed roll.

 

Yeah, I wouldn't want to make it too complicated either. I love the chart and all the math that went into it though. I think I would be inclined to add a roll of 3 gives 1/2 END cost (cause players love that moment of awesome), chuck the limitation, and say "this is just an effect of how magic operates in this world".

 

[eepjr24]

1 hour ago, theinfn8 said:

 

Yeah, I wouldn't want to make it too complicated either. I love the chart and all the math that went into it though. I think I would be inclined to add a roll of 3 gives 1/2 END cost (cause players love that moment of awesome), chuck the limitation, and say "this is just an effect of how magic operates in this world".

 

I never really make the math a part of the limitation in my games. I just use it to figure out a reasonable amount to make the limitation. I try to balance it either against raw probabilities or compare the effectiveness to existing limitations or look at how many points it saves and what else you could do given those points in the main power. And with Hero I generally find that it is VERY well thought out and math based so the three all arrive at about the same answer.

 

- E