[5edR] Endurance

[Spence]

As the title indicates, I am a 5th Edition Revised player.

 

When I started playing Hero back in the Champions 1st ed era, End cost was 1 End per 5 points.  This was later changed to 1 End per 10 points. 

 

For me I always go back to the 1 to 5 ratio for my games.  I  personally find it easier to use and easier to teach the game.  I don't know if there is any actual difference in the end, but it seems so to me.

 

Anyone else with similar experiences?

 

[Lord Liaden]

I didn't find either to be easier to teach, use or keep track of. However, 1 END per 5 CP tends to make characters more expensive, as Reduced Endurance becomes more essential.

[Greywind]

...or just buy more END.

[Lord Liaden]

Sure, but to match the efficiency of RE on a Multipower you also have to buy up REC too.

[Duke Bushido]

As I tend to backport everything new into 2e, I, like Spence, am still doing 1/5 for END.

 

Making it more challenging is that I still do Red END the old way: keep halfing it until you get to .5 for 0 END.

 

I like it better.  For one, it controls power leveks and power creep far, far better than any suggested campaign cap or guidelone ive seen; it keeps battles fairly brief, and not always decisive, and brings its own special sort of tactics.

 

But then again, I dont know much about comics, save that I have a preference for the Spiderman / Doc Savage end of the scale to the "why are they not demanding worship and tribute?" end of the scale.

 

I dont need universe-destroying villain power levels to keep the thrill and sense of danger real to the players, and the built-in limits of expensive END and expensive END reduction keeps the PCs themselves from being absolute threats to the nation.

 

I know there has for many years been discussion of Registration acts, etc (I dont use them, as I prefer a more idealized setting of a free nation with responsible citizens), but in my mind, a super with the power to level buildings with ease or do millions of dollars in collateral damage four battles a day isnt going to be forced onto a registration list: hes going to be incarcerated "for the public good" at _best_, and quietly exterminated if containment should prove impossible--  in a "we faer them, so we register them" type setting, that is.

 

Anyway, pros and cons for our own games, I find the 1/5 just yields a better experience for me.

[Grailknight]

Using 5R rules but 1/5 END will be fine as far as play goes but may cause some Character Creation trends.

 

Slightly lower DC's at 0 END will become more common and you will probably see more Multipowers constructed thusly:

 

Multipower : (62 point reserve)

6u- 12d6 Blast

6u- 10d6 Blast, 1/2 Reduced END

6u- 8d6 Blast, 0 END

 

Expect to see very few END Reserves and lots of Charges(with clips where appropriate).

 

Cost END to Activate will be very popular on non-Attack Powers.

[unclevlad]

It also begs for martial arts DCs because the maneuvers and DCs don't cost END.  Or possibly ECs with, let's say, force field, flight, and HA.  The EC savings will tend to make the 1/2 END cost more tolerable.

 

And it seems to me that this would make figured characteristics that much more significant, especially if the plan's to buy up REC.  It's more expensive to do that in 5E,  To be sure, that's competing with buying the damage (for example) in other ways, but that's a matter of playing around with it.  

 

 

 

 

[Spence]

Keep it coming

 

My experience has been a lot like Duke Bushido's. 

 

While I have never seen anything like Grailknight or unclevlad described.

Or any issues problems with the balance derived from more END or raising REC, but I have noticed a very big difference in play. 

Combats in supers or fantasy always seemed to drag on forever with 1/10, but had a built in sense of urgency and a faster pace at 1/5.

 

I'm not saying anyone is wrong. 

I am liking the inputs on peoples thoughts.

[Tech]

Using mostly 4-5th Edition with a touch of 1-3rd thrown in, we're using 1 End/10 pts. However, I've seen more and more that people aren't buying reduced END. Before you say 'you're not using as much END', if anything, players are designing characters so that they run out of END faster, far faster than the 1/10 benefits them.

Part of it might be we've run into heroic situations where the character is near or at 0 END but has to stop the bad guy but the character continues fighting. That heroic moment where the character shines cannot be underestimated, which is why we still use END.

 

I hope this didn't go off the trail.

[foolishvictor]

Having changed the cost to 1End per 5 active points did you feel the need to make other changes too?  To be honest, I find the charges limitation to rarely be much of a limitation even at 1End per 10 active points.  (If the charges are genuinely difficult to recover then that is another matter.)

[MrAgdesh]

On 2/15/2021 at 4:25 AM, Spence said:

 

Combats in supers or fantasy always seemed to drag on forever with 1/10, but had a built in sense of urgency and a faster pace at 1/5.

 

I've never known END use to drag out combat. My only experience on malingering combats has been when defences have been too high compared to average damage dealt.

 

I am using 6E. I keep End at 1/10 for Supers and 1/5 for Heroic level games. 

[Spence]

1 hour ago, MrAgdesh said:

I've never known END use to drag out combat. My only experience on malingering combats has been when defences have been too high compared to average damage dealt.

 

I am using 6E. I keep End at 1/10 for Supers and 1/5 for Heroic level games. 

 Fair enough.

 

It could be the 6th Ed part. 

I picked up the books (I'm a compulsive completionist collector of RPG's) for 6th, but could never really play it.  4th and 5th Ed's are my favorites.  To me, 6th feels and plays very different than all the earlier versions so I just never actually put together anything that ran more than one or two sessions in 6th.

5thR on the other hand feels right and everything clicks. 

[Opal]

I started with 1st, so I've always found 1/5 more intuitive, especially for attacks (but, in 1e, movement was 1/5" so was already 1/10 for most movement modes, IIRC), but it did seem to make 1/2 END almost mandatory and charges a pretty good deal.

OTOH, if you went with it, if you had tight campaign limits that had the bricks, for instance, going for the full 60 STR rather than lower with 1/2 END, it did bring some drama, something about spending lots of END evokes the feel of superhuman effort to go with those superhuman powers.

(and, yeah, 6th failed to grab me; 4th with some variants is my preference)

[Ninja-Bear]

On 3/8/2021 at 11:44 PM, Spence said:

 Fair enough.

 

It could be the 6th Ed part. 

I picked up the books (I'm a compulsive completionist collector of RPG's) for 6th, but could never really play it.  4th and 5th Ed's are my favorites.  To me, 6th feels and plays very different than all the earlier versions so I just never actually put together anything that ran more than one or two sessions in 6th.

5thR on the other hand feels right and everything clicks. 

Spence wondering could you elaborate on 6th plays different? Cause I’m not having that experience. But that can be based on the rules that I often (or probably rather) don’t use.

[Spence]

On 3/16/2021 at 10:50 PM, Ninja-Bear said:

Spence wondering could you elaborate on 6th plays different? Cause I’m not having that experience. But that can be based on the rules that I often (or probably rather) don’t use.

 

Didn't mean to ignore you, but this week was a bit stressful.  I got the first shot of the COVID this week.  They all say that the first shot is no problem and the second shot can be rough.  They lied.  Teh first shot nailed me right in my old man'ness.  Ended up taking a couple days off of work.

 

Back the the question.  You also caused me to realize I am not really playing 5thR.  I was really trying to because I can still get the books and have more than enough copies to run a game.  But the reality is I have "borrowed" the parts of 4th into my build, or basically I am playing 4th. 

 

But one of the reasons the game plays different is that at 1/10 players are always up powering things so they do not "waste" endurance.   At 1/5 they will tend to apply their powers more to the situation.   Take a straight stick Energy Blast.   At 1/5 1D6 is 1 END, 2D6 is 2 END, 3d6 is 3 End and so on.  You will see the players using the full range from 1D6 to 8D6 one die at a time.  But at 1/10 you don't.  You see 2D6, 4D6, 5D6 and so on.  This may not seem to mean much, but it impacts the game across all END use. 

 

HERO also naturally breaks across 5's and I have noticed that paying endurance across 5's tends to flow easier.  Or it does for me. 

 

That may or may not make sense.

[Ninja-Bear]

Spence that actually makes sense. The people I originally learned to play Champions play 4th with 5th costs. And borrow what Rules we like from any edition. Now since I’ve been working with my brother for his Fantasy game, with him I’ve jumped in 6th. We have played some here and there in 6th (mainly Heroic). And what we play (the most basic of rules) plays the same.