VPP -1/4 limitation; All powers must be predesigned?

[Duke Bushido]

Had a longer post last night; failed,to,post it.

 

Short version: you can track the evolution of power pools from Gadget Pools in Champs II to Power Pools in Champs III.

 

Personally, I would allow Panpiper's proposed limitation on the pool, simple because it does limit the usefulness of the pool by making it effectively unavailable and replacing it with whatever load-out the character has preselected.

 

That, and it already exists as a vaild limitation aince the days of Gadget Pool, where it was "just the way it worked," and you spent extra points on a skill to make it changeable in game.

 

I would not personally allow this limitation to apply to the powers built using the pool, because it does not affect them in any way.  As an example, if a scenario called for Telepathy, the Hulk' strength is useless, but it hasnt been made any less effective than it was.

 

I hope this helps.  No long discussions when i am working off a touchscreen, I am afraid.   

 

 

 

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

If the GM has "must have all powers prepared ahead of time" as a house rule, then its not worth a limitation, its just part of the campaign.  That would be like buying a limitation on your 60 active point powers "cannot be more than 60 AP" because the campaign limits you to that much.

 

If there's no such limitation on the campaign, then yeah I can see it on the pool, but not the powers.

[Duke Bushido]

Okay, I was going to do all this long-hand, but it's after two-AM my time (new blood pressure meds are screwing up my sleep rhythms), so I am going to do it this way:

 

 

To help those folks still wrestling with the difference between what Panpiper is talking about and a house rule that says your powers have to be prebuilt, I offer this:

 

I have a Pool with fifty points in it.

 

I have the following pre-built powers because my GM doesn't want me to waste valuable table time building powers mid-game:

 

Energy Blast: 50 pts

Flight 25 pts

Flight 50 pts

Force Field 30 pts

Force Field 25 pts

Entangle: 25 pts

Swimming 25 pts

Desolidification 40 pts

Enhanced senses 15 pts

Images 25 pts

 

 

 

What we have here a long, long list of things that totals a bit more than 50 points.  However, they are all built and spec'ed out nicely, and the GM has approved them.   At any point during the game, I can use some portion of my Phase to switch them around:

 

I respond to the sirens dumping everything into Flight-- I take the 50 point built and run with it.   As I approach, I decided I need to be careful about what I'm getting into, so I change to the 25 pts of flight and the 25 pts of Forcefield.  As I survey the scene, I want make sure I get all my PER bonuses, so I find a perch and trade Flight for the Enhanced Senses, leaving the FF active.  I see the bad guy, and decide to Entangle him.  I don't want to drop the senses, but I have to drop something, so I switch the FF off, use the Entangle, and hope for the best.

 

 

Should the need arise, I can keep doing this, through all three-hundred-and-one points of powers that I have pre-built per House Rule or, if you must, "mandatory -0 Limitation."

 

 

This is _not_ what Panpiper is wanting get a discount for.  The last bit of the discussion makes that more clear than ever.

 

What Panpiper is proposing is that I leave my lair having selected up to my pool max in powers-- let's say I took Flight and Force Field, and that's all I have, no matter what I opt to turn off.  There is nothing else for me to turn on until I have satisfied the condition of the Limitation-- say "returning to my lair."  I can turn off the Flight and the FF, but I can't turn on the Desolidification because I "don't have it with me" for whatever SFX-appropriate reason.  Even if I turn off Flight and Forcefield, the only thing I can turn on is Flight or Forcefield-- if I chose correctly, then Flight _and_ Forcefield.  I must satisfy a condition of the Limitation to change my actual preloaded powers--

 

 

That's it!  That should help keep this more understandable: we need to denote a difference between "prebuilt" and "preloaded."  Personally, since I swear I have seen it more than once in the published material (and even if I hadn't, it's undeniably a limitation of the usefulness of the power pool, even if the powers it builds still work as perfectly as they were built to work), I can see zero problems with allowing such a limitation.  Honestly, if the pool is particularly small and all the prebuilds are large (say the character would realistically be able to only use two or perhaps three on any loadout), I might even go lower than 1/4.

 

At any rate, "must have powers pre-built" and must have powers "pre-loaded and can't change them until Condition X" are vastly different things.

 

 

Good night, Amigos; I'm going to try the bed again.

  

 

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

7 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Okay, I was going to do all this long-hand, but it's after two-AM my time (new blood pressure meds are screwing up my sleep rhythms), so I am going to do it this way:

 

To help those folks still wrestling with the difference between what Panpiper is talking about and a house rule that says your powers have to be prebuilt, I offer this:

 

I have a Pool with fifty points in it.

 

I have the following pre-built powers because my GM doesn't want me to waste valuable table time building powers mid-game:

 

Energy Blast: 50 pts

Flight 25 pts

Flight 50 pts

Force Field 30 pts

Force Field 25 pts

Entangle: 25 pts

Swimming 25 pts

Desolidification 40 pts

Enhanced senses 15 pts

Images 25 pts

 

What we have here a long, long list of things that totals a bit more than 50 points.  However, they are all built and spec'ed out nicely, and the GM has approved them.   At any point during the game, I can use some portion of my Phase to switch them around:

 

I respond to the sirens dumping everything into Flight-- I take the 50 point built and run with it.   As I approach, I decided I need to be careful about what I'm getting into, so I change to the 25 pts of flight and the 25 pts of Forcefield.  As I survey the scene, I want make sure I get all my PER bonuses, so I find a perch and trade Flight for the Enhanced Senses, leaving the FF active.  I see the bad guy, and decide to Entangle him.  I don't want to drop the senses, but I have to drop something, so I switch the FF off, use the Entangle, and hope for the best.

 

Should the need arise, I can keep doing this, through all three-hundred-and-one points of powers that I have pre-built per House Rule or, if you must, "mandatory -0 Limitation."

 

We get into what is "a power" for this purpose.  Some examples:

 

 - do you have "10d6 Blast", or "10d6 Energy Blast,  Mystic Flames" - that is, can you decide to switch from fire to cold, lightning, acid, sonic, a rain of dead fish, a glowing green boxing glove or any special effect that occurs to you on the spot?

 - can you choose only an 8d6 Blast because you want to keep a bit of Flight active?

 - I suspect the 30 and 25 point Force Fields may be an oversight, but do I have to write down every possible combination of PD and ED, from 1 PD or 1 ED right on up to 30 PD, 30 ED, or 15 PD/15 ED, making this a cut & paste exercise, or a Bart Simpson-esque writing of lines?

 

Let's take it a step further.  Can I decide I want that Desolid to be half END, or cost END only to activate, so it becomes 50 points that consumes my entire phase,?  Can I add a limitation, such as limiting the range on the Energy Blast or making it cost extra END, or must each possible advantage/limitation combination be pre-written and pre-reviewed?

 

I paid for the VPP to get flexibility.  I want that flexibility.  I accept it must be obtained within parameters that do not unbalance or bog down the game.

 

We had a novice player some years back and started a Cosmic game.  She played a fire and ice blaster.  We built a VPP, attacks only, a chart of the number of dice for a 5, 10 or 15 point per d6 attack with various levels of advantage, and a list of attacks and advantages that might be relevant.  This was when combined attacks could not use multiple powers in the same framework, so the VPP was one attack at a time, IIRC.  She had no difficulty making the Ice Shards Armor Piercing, Penetrating and/or reduced END and a KA or Blast as the need arose.

 

Everything is "It Depends".  She was not going to wait a phase after appearing in an unknown parallel world, surrounded by an unknown group saying "Freeze and surrender", and pop in a Teleport Usable as an Attack, AoE, Selective, AoE, 1 Hex Accurate, Megascale after counting down DEX once.  But the Impetuous, Impatient, Impulsive character I was playing (think Johnny Thunder's Thunderbolt hopped up on caffiene...) would, and did.

 

We went 5 miles due north...stops...fishes out d8...OK, he thought it was north, but it was actually southwest.  We just got here, remember?

 

GHM hauls out a map.  We splash down into the harbour.  PC's and players are sputtering around...what just happened?  What do we do now?  Did we appear in a flashy, noisy blast of magical; energy that's easily traced?  Probably...  "I can translocate us again!"  group, in resounding unison ""NO!!!"

 

IOW, I am good with a "change on the fly" VPP provided the player can manage it, and it neither breaks nor bogs down the game.

 

7 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

This is _not_ what Panpiper is wanting get a discount for.  The last bit of the discussion makes that more clear than ever.

 

What Panpiper is proposing is that I leave my lair having selected up to my pool max in powers-- let's say I took Flight and Force Field, and that's all I have, no matter what I opt to turn off.  There is nothing else for me to turn on until I have satisfied the condition of the Limitation-- say "returning to my lair."  I can turn off the Flight and the FF, but I can't turn on the Desolidification because I "don't have it with me" for whatever SFX-appropriate reason.  Even if I turn off Flight and Forcefield, the only thing I can turn on is Flight or Forcefield-- if I chose correctly, then Flight _and_ Forcefield.  I must satisfy a condition of the Limitation to change my actual preloaded powers--

 

That's it!  That should help keep this more understandable: we need to denote a difference between "prebuilt" and "preloaded."  Personally, since I swear I have seen it more than once in the published material (and even if I hadn't, it's undeniably a limitation of the usefulness of the power pool, even if the powers it builds still work as perfectly as they were built to work), I can see zero problems with allowing such a limitation.  Honestly, if the pool is particularly small and all the prebuilds are large (say the character would realistically be able to only use two or perhaps three on any loadout), I might even go lower than 1/4.

 

At any rate, "must have powers pre-built" and must have powers "pre-loaded and can't change them until Condition X" are vastly different things.

 

Yes and no, I think.  We know the "pre-load the pool and that is all you get" model, like the classic Gadget Pool.  You leave with 25 points of Flight and 25 points of Force Field.  The VPP is full.  You cannot change the slots in any way until you meet the conditions to make the change, perhaps spending some time at the base, so you get a limitation which is largely unchanged since the prototype VPP Gadget Pool.  Today, the RAW 6e options are:

 

 - Only changes between scenes (takes hours) -1/4

 - Only changes between adventures (takes days) -1/2

 - Only changes under specific circumstances (eg. touch the target; full moon; must access and study bulky spellbook; only in a lab/arsenal) -1/2

 

It seems like being able to pre-load a dozen, or "your INT" of choices is a lot less limited than "only one load for the pool, locked until you study your spellbook".  Maybe that merits a -1/4 limitation, instead of the -1/2 for having no ability to substitute powers without that down time.  That backs up Duke's on-the-fly "maybe -1/4".  Funny how a guy playing for decades can toss out a gut feel number, and find it largely backed up by rules in a future edition, isn't it?

 

NEW QUESTION

 

So, in discussing a Multipower, if it takes Extra Time, or Concentration, or the like to change multipower slots (6e V1 p 405), that's a limitation on the Multipower reserve.  So, by default, it takes me a full phase and a skill roll to change the slots in a VPP.  If it took a minute to get the roll (Extra Time, 1 minute), it seems like I should get a -1 limitation (full phase being -1/2 and 1 minute being -1 1/2) on the control cost.  I'd get -1 1/2 on the Multipower pool, which is frankly ridiculous (see below).  If I had to Concentrate Throughout at half DCV, I'd get -1/2, and I'd get -1 if I make that 0 DCV.   Then I can roll every phase. 

 

But I get -1/4 for having to take hours to change the pool?  Sounds like I am getting ripped off on that limitation  value big-time.

 

Of course, the Multipower limitation is completely stupid.   Consider:

 

Blasting Betty has a 12d6 Blast which costs 60 points.

Dwayne Drain has a 6dd STUN Drain which costs 60 points.

Flexible Freida has a Multipower of 12d6 Blast and 6d6 STUN drain which costs 72 points.

Slow Steve has a Multipower of 12d6 Blast and 6d6 STUN drain, but it takes a full phase to change slots.  That costs 60/1.5 = 40 + 12 = 52 points.

 

Do we see why Betty and Dwayne might feel ripped off by this model?

 

Along comes Efficient Ernie and helps Betty re-draft to buy a Multipower of 12d6 Blast and 6d6 STUN drain, but it takes a full 25 years to change slots.  That costs 60/8 = 7.5 so 7 + 12 = 19 points.  Much better.  Then she buys a second identical Multipower for another 19 and spends 34 points on Skill Levels to use Combined attack and extra END and REC.  She can use both the Blast and the Drain as a combined attack, probably with better CV, and she paid the same points as Freida.

 

Sorry, Steve, I think that's a messed-up result.  It is easily fixed by applying limitations on the ability to reassign Multipower points to the slot costs rather than the pool cost, as the slot costs are the analogy to the VPP Control Cost.  Given the size and scope of the rules, one issue like this seems understandable, so what say we agree to errata it and fix it in 7e?  In the meantime, I think I will move it to the "power game" thread.

 

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

 

 

Love it, Hugh!

 

 

I think I'm just going to retcon all my multipower villains (all four of them) to "can't change slots for 25 years."      Also, take your trophy, because you have done something I haven't seen in a long time:  you have shown a whole new way to rules lawyer a power build I have never seen before.   Not only has no one ever tried to present to me a character with a ridiculously long time limit and a build to ignore it at the same time, I don't think it has ever occurred to me as something that might be done at all.  (whether we actually abuse them or not, I think we all play little exercises with the rules, if only to test them out and look for potential problems).

 

That was a master stroke, and (with all a credit due-- see note on that later) I am going to save that for post-plague recovery (if such a day ever comes to the US, I mean) and drop it on one of my more experienced groups, solely for entertainment purposes 

 

Be aware that it's harder to footnote in conversation, and it will likely get reduced to "one of the cooler guys I like talking to on the Champions Boards tossed that out and when I was done howling with laughter, I saved it for your guys."   

 

 

Quote

 

- Only changes between scenes (takes hours) -1/4

 - Only changes between adventures (takes days) -1/2

 - Only changes under specific circumstances (eg. touch the target; full moon; must access and study bulky spellbook; only in a lab/arsenal) -1/2

 

It seems like being able to pre-load a dozen, or "your INT" of choices is a lot less limited than "only one load for the pool, locked until you study your spellbook".  Maybe that merits a -1/4 limitation, instead of the -1/2 for having no ability to substitute powers without that down time.

 

 

 

If the pre-load of "Character's INT  worth of slots" isn't something you just tossed out for the conversation, but is something I've overlooked from a later edition, could I trouble you for the specific book?  I don't recall it specifically, at least not sitting here, but I _really_ like it and would like to read up on it.  To be honest, with the multi-power pricing comparisons you offered right after that, I find that to be less limiting to the character-- ie, "more in line with -1/4,) but with the extremely important caveat that this value would be ultimately determined by the Character's INT score and the actual Change Condition being put forward. 

 

 

In the interest of complete disclosure, my agreement to Panpiper's suggested -1/4 was based on the rules sets I use ( [Skywalker] "The sacred texts! [/Skywalker]   ).  For anyone unfamiliar with the original "power pools"  (you never know), and to avoid possible copyrighted material issues, here is the brief summation that I offered earlier, typed up, them promptly fell asleep at the keyboard for a couple of hours, pretty much wrecking everything I had type.    :

 

Champs II; "Gadget Points:" A Power Pool-like construct from which a character could create or modify foci.  The original rules suggested that the character should only be able to change his load-out between adventures, but did allow that with GM permission, should there be unspent points in a particular load-out, the character may spend them "on the fly."  Presumably, but not explicitly stated, these now-assigned points would follow the "changed between adventures" model.

 

That same book presented the Skill: Gadgeteering, which specifically made it possible to change the Gadget Point load-out during the course of an adventure.  By comparing the cost of 13- /14- Gadgeteering skill for a 50-pt pool to the cost of a 50 pt pool and assuming that would be the total of a "change it when I want to" pool, then repeating for a 25-pt and a 75-pt pool, it seemed that not being able to change on the fly was roughly a -1/4 to -1/2 Limitation (nearer to 1/3 at 25 point pool and just over 1/4 for 50-point pools to achieve 14- target rolls).   Technically, I found  a +1/4 Limitation, but like our friend Chris Goodwin, I find the more modern -x  (as opposed to +x) used for Limitations helps to keep the conversation more clear   .  Panpiper was proposing a -1/4, so it looked to be rules-supported to me.

 

Champs III, however, introduced Variable Power Pool (calling it Power Modifier, or as we would call those in later editions, "Frameworks").  Like Gadget Points, the cost structure is very multipower-y, with pool costs and control costs.  Modifiers are not allowed to be applied to the Pool Cost, but may be applied to the Control costs.  Individual powers built from the pool can be modified as any other power.  A notable difference is that VPP allows the character by default to change the powers on the fly.  It continues with the idea that modifiers are applied to the Control and not the pool.

 

There is a nifty chart, though, covering, amongst other things, limitations to being able to change the load-out for the pool.  "Only change between adventures" is listed as a +1/2 (-1/2 in the parlance we are more used to)," so again, Panpiper's proposal seemed rules supported.

 

Once I had made it home and was able to verify all this, I was quite relieved: I know these conversations tend to move very quickly when they get a lot of participation, and I had wondered just a little if "this feels like it keeps with what I know" might have simply proven that I didn't know anything at all!     

 

 

All that said, I also say: However---

 

When compared to other Frameworks, and in particular Multipower, with which Power Pools share the bulk of their structure (which is to say that they are pretty much just a bottomless multipower)

 

These values _do_ appear, as you pointed out, to be remarkably light in terms of discount versus actual hampering; there is no denying that.

 

Now without re-hashing it all, keep in my some of my thoughts on Mind Control rulings that I shared with you: sometimes I rule a certain way because I feel it is "more just" to the players or because something could become truly game-breaking if used exactly as written and Something Goes Wrong with the dice, etc.  I say keep that in mind, because I really believe that, no matter how much we would like it to be otherwise, sometimes bending the meta is the safest or most reasonable way to ensure that everyone gets what they want or at least what they paid for.

 

I am not terribly bothered by the fact that the limitations offered for Power Pool have a much lower discount than a similar limitation for Multipower would have.  It's meta, and I accept that, but ultimately, the Power Pool guy still gets far, far more than the Multipower guy can ever hope to get, at both identical AP and identical RP values, simply because he can get _anything_.  Well, anything within reason of his SFX and GM consent, to be sure, but still:  The Multipower guy gets _only_ what he specifically bought, slot-by-slot, and no more.  Assuming that both characters have identical AP /RP expenditures, the VPP guy can exactly duplicate the MP guy's load-out.  The MP guy is stuck with that _forever_.  No matter what slot he chooses or what the conditions are, his Powers won't change.  I find any condition that denies him access to a particular power is far more limiting for him than it is for the guy who can, under those same conditions, whip up something different that could still be effective.

 

That's a bit harder to explain with regards to change-out time limits, etc, but consider that when MP guy has the limitation that only allows him to toggle a slot on after X amount of time.  When he toggles that slot on, it is going to be whatever it was.  If his slot is "Ice Blast," it's always going to be Ice Blast.  So while he's fighting the Arctic Avenger, he will be waiting for his chance to activate his Ice Blast.   The VPP guy with that same limitation can decide "I don't think I'm going to use my Ice Blast against this particular opponent.  I'm pretty sure Nuclear Inferno is the way to go against an opponent with all these ice-based powers."   And if it turns out he's wrong, when he can toggle a new power, he can try something completely different.   MP guy is going to be lobbing Ice Blast again, even after he discover's the Arctic Avenger has Damage Reduction v. Cold-based Attacks.

 

 

It's probably a rest-related issue, but I can't seem to summon a clear sentence structure to explain exactly what it is I am trying to state; I can only hope that this example helps to illustrate the line of thinking.

 

 

 

You folks have a good day; I've got a lot of things I need to get done before I go to work.   

 

 

 

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

I think I'm just going to retcon all my multipower villains (all four of them) to "can't change slots for 25 years."      Also, take your trophy, because you have done something I haven't seen in a long time:  you have shown a whole new way to rules lawyer a power build I have never seen before.   Not only has no one ever tried to present to me a character with a ridiculously long time limit and a build to ignore it at the same time, I don't think it has ever occurred to me as something that might be done at all.  (whether we actually abuse them or not, I think we all play little exercises with the rules, if only to test them out and look for potential problems).

That was a master stroke, and (with all a credit due-- see note on that later) I am going to save that for post-plague recovery (if such a day ever comes to the US, I mean) and drop it on one of my more experienced groups, solely for entertainment purposes 

 

No one would try to use the build because no one would allow it.  The fact it is possible is presented only as evidence that the rule in question is flawed.  I think Lucius and I had a discussion years back where he proved a similar point with a similar structure.  When more flexibility costs less points, the system is broken.  When I have to compare "breathes underwater", "immortal" and "speaks fluent Wookie", it's harder to objectively assess whether one is underpriced.

 

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

If the pre-load of "Character's INT  worth of slots" isn't something you just tossed out for the conversation, but is something I've overlooked from a later edition, could I trouble you for the specific book?  I don't recall it specifically, at least not sitting here, but I _really_ like it and would like to read up on it.  To be honest, with the multi-power pricing comparisons you offered right after that, I find that to be less limiting to the character-- ie, "more in line with -1/4,) but with the extremely important caveat that this value would be ultimately determined by the Character's INT score and the actual Change Condition being put forward.

 

The “equal to INT” was suggested somewhere else, not as a rules item.  I believe some Fantasy Hero games used it as the number of “pre-cast” spells you could have (IIRC, they all had long extended casting times with Concentration, etc. and half-phase triggers to create a Vancian Casting model).

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

In the interest of complete disclosure, my agreement to Panpiper's suggested -1/4 was based on the rules sets I use ( [Skywalker] "The sacred texts! [/Skywalker]   ).  For anyone unfamiliar with the original "power pools"  (you never know), and to avoid possible copyrighted material issues, here is the brief summation that I offered earlier, typed up, them promptly fell asleep at the keyboard for a couple of hours, pretty much wrecking everything I had type.    :

 

Champs II; "Gadget Points:" A Power Pool-like construct from which a character could create or modify foci.  The original rules suggested that the character should only be able to change his load-out between adventures, but did allow that with GM permission, should there be unspent points in a particular load-out, the character may spend them "on the fly."  Presumably, but not explicitly stated, these now-assigned points would follow the "changed between adventures" model.

 

That same book presented the Skill: Gadgeteering, which specifically made it possible to change the Gadget Point load-out during the course of an adventure.  By comparing the cost of 13- /14- Gadgeteering skill for a 50-pt pool to the cost of a 50 pt pool and assuming that would be the total of a "change it when I want to" pool, then repeating for a 25-pt and a 75-pt pool, it seemed that not being able to change on the fly was roughly a -1/4 to -1/2 Limitation (nearer to 1/3 at 25 point pool and just over 1/4 for 50-point pools to achieve 14- target rolls).   Technically, I found  a +1/4 Limitation, but like our friend Chris Goodwin, I find the more modern -x  (as opposed to +x) used for Limitations helps to keep the conversation more clear   .  Panpiper was proposing a -1/4, so it looked to be rules-supported to me.

 

Champs III, however, introduced Variable Power Pool (calling it Power Modifier, or as we would call those in later editions, "Frameworks").  Like Gadget Points, the cost structure is very multipower-y, with pool costs and control costs.  Modifiers are not allowed to be applied to the Pool Cost, but may be applied to the Control costs.  Individual powers built from the pool can be modified as any other power.  A notable difference is that VPP allows the character by default to change the powers on the fly.  It continues with the idea that modifiers are applied to the Control and not the pool.

 

There is a nifty chart, though, covering, amongst other things, limitations to being able to change the load-out for the pool.  "Only change between adventures" is listed as a +1/2 (-1/2 in the parlance we are more used to)," so again, Panpiper's proposal seemed rules supported.

 

Once I had made it home and was able to verify all this, I was quite relieved: I know these conversations tend to move very quickly when they get a lot of participation, and I had wondered just a little if "this feels like it keeps with what I know" might have simply proven that I didn't know anything at all!    

The Power Pool has largely stood the test of time, that ½ limit for “between adventuires only” being one example.  The most significant innovation, which came in 6e, was decoupling the pool and control cost, which I highly recommend backporting. It is a simple concept:

 

Pre-6e, a 60 point VPP has a control cost of 30, and maximum AP of any power equal to the pool cost.  It can hold 60 real points of powers.

 

6e, a 60 point VPP can hold 60 real points of powers.  It has a control cost of one-half of the maximum AP of any power it can hold.  So, for example:

-          you could have a 60 point VPP, but it could cap out at 20 AP for any one power.  He has lots of cantrips, but none are very powerful. 

-          you could have a 30 point VPP with a 30 point control cost, and all powers required to have OAF: Bow and Quiver.  The character can pull any 60 AP arrow out of the quiver, as it has a 30 point real cost.

 

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

All that said, I also say: However---

 

When compared to other Frameworks, and in particular Multipower, with which Power Pools share the bulk of their structure (which is to say that they are pretty much just a bottomless multipower)

 

These values _do_ appear, as you pointed out, to be remarkably light in terms of discount versus actual hampering; there is no denying that.

 

Now without re-hashing it all, keep in my some of my thoughts on Mind Control rulings that I shared with you: sometimes I rule a certain way because I feel it is "more just" to the players or because something could become truly game-breaking if used exactly as written and Something Goes Wrong with the dice, etc.  I say keep that in mind, because I really believe that, no matter how much we would like it to be otherwise, sometimes bending the meta is the safest or most reasonable way to ensure that everyone gets what they want or at least what they paid for.

 

I am not terribly bothered by the fact that the limitations offered for Power Pool have a much lower discount than a similar limitation for Multipower would have.  It's meta, and I accept that, but ultimately, the Power Pool guy still gets far, far more than the Multipower guy can ever hope to get, at both identical AP and identical RP values, simply because he can get _anything_.  Well, anything within reason of his SFX and GM consent, to be sure, but still:  The Multipower guy gets _only_ what he specifically bought, slot-by-slot, and no more.  Assuming that both characters have identical AP /RP expenditures, the VPP guy can exactly duplicate the MP guy's load-out.  The MP guy is stuck with that _forever_.  No matter what slot he chooses or what the conditions are, his Powers won't change.  I find any condition that denies him access to a particular power is far more limiting for him than it is for the guy who can, under those same conditions, whip up something different that could still be effective.

 

Let me come back to that Archer character.  He could have a Multipower of 60 point powers, with a pool cost of 30 (after OAF) and slot costs of 3 each.  Alternatively, he could have a VPP with a 30 point pool, and a control cost of 60 max AP/2 = 30 x 3 Cosmic (another price unchanged over the editions) = 90/2 (OAF) = 45.

 

The two work identically – pick one arrow and assign the pool.  The Multipower is cheaper with 14 or fewer slots.

 

Remove the Focus and use the 3e Pool.  A 60 point pool which is Cosmic will cost 150 points in total, 60 pool + 90 control.  That’s a 60 point Multipower pool + 15 fixed slots/ultras.  The same breakpoint has been there all along.

 

At some point, any multipower should transition to a VPP.  If the SFX are tight, that should be earlier due to the limitation on the control cost.  That perhaps suggests VPP is underpriced or Multipower is overpriced. However, this is the current pricing structure, and we have to start there  to asses whether change is appropriate. 

[armadillo]

I would use the 1/4 Limitation but call it "Only for Pre-tested Powers." So, it takes a while for the character to build a repertoire of powers. The player gradually makes a list of the powers she has tested, and can use any power on that list. 

 

It prevents the lag in-game where the player is building the power.

 

Also, if a new situation arises then the player can master a new power between scenes: "You head back to the HQ and hit the Danger Room, focusing on making your fire blasts more focused like a laser...."

 

It also rewards the player who spends the time dreaming this stuff up. I would limit it to one new power for every 15 minutes of practice time.