Based on Ego combat value in 4E game

[Ragnov]

Hi,

 

I have bought 6D6 hand attack based upon ego combat value for a character. I also bought 20 strength based upon ego combat value for the character. When the character attack with the powers it's an ECV attack vs the target's ECV. Let's say the target aborts to a block. Would they roll their OCV vs my OCV, their OCV vs my ECV, or do they fail to block? My inclination is that it would be their OCV vs my ECV. It's still an attack. A block is my mind an attack skill check pitting attack stat vs attack stat. Looking for feedback.

[Grailknight]

I believe you inclination is correct.

[CptPatriot]

Strength and HA based on ECV? It's an interesting thought but there's no provision for blocking an ECV based attack in the Rules as Written(RAW). There have been optional rules, but nothing official.

[LoneWolf]

I would go with ECV vs ECV based on ego combat value.   Based on ego combat value in 4th edition changes the attack to ECV vs ECV.  This often means the target is much easier to hit.  This is not just because most characters ECV is lower than their DCV, it is also because most skill levels and maneuvers do not apply.  This seems to severely weaken the advantage.   Why is someone with a martial block able to apply his skill level to avoid this, but someone putting levels to DCV to avoid the hit not?

 

In 6th edition you can actually define what CV you and the target is using.  

 

I believe the Ultimate Mentalist actually does mention using block vs mental attacks as part of the mind to mind combat.  That was a 4th edition book.  
 

[Tech]

Gave it some thought. I'd go with ECV vs ECV. The HA is only the method of how the damage is being delivered (in this case, not ranged); the effect of it being Mental determines how to resolve it, thus Ego.

[foolishvictor]

I feel when designing new powers that push the rules a little it is worth really understanding what the objective of your new power is.

 

Once you have chosen to add the "Based on EGO CV" advantage on the power is there a reason why strength would boost the damage of the attack?  Why not use ego?

 

The power you are proposing seems a lot cheaper than a comparable EGO attack with No Range since HA in 4e is 3CP per D6.  In fairness, HKA when boosted by Strength is somewhat cheaper than RKA with No Range.  That said, characters focusing on Ego combat tend to be weak when the fight is up close...

 

As always it is up to the GM.

[Ragnov]

The character concept was "The Mental Brick". An ego so immense that it spilled over into the physical realm. Superhero name "The ID". I'd like to be able to pull off a mental moveby, haymaker, etc. The reason why I want the block/dodge to work is that I do not think it would be fair to attack someone without mental defense at the same power level as a traditional moveby, haymaker, etc.

Edited March 12, 2021 by Ragnov
Adding thoughts

[Opal]

So, vaguely-remembered anecdote from the 80s:

A player creates an mentalist, named (IDKY I remember this) Aris, who is a litle dark and creepy, apparently, and like most mentalists, physically wimply. However, a different player does all the character scetches for the group, and draws Aris as this black-robed&coweled glowing-red-eyed very villainous looking figure...

...holding an enormous sword.

Now, Aris's player was known for outre builds with whacked special effects. Like "Growth: special effect, shrinks everything around me." (Don't think about that one too hard.)
So he decides to buy the enormous sword.

As Martial Arts.

BoECV. (see, I got there)

I think, I'm kinda guessing, that only the martial arts were BoECV, and STR, or maybe EGO, or maybe something else, adding to it at 5 per DC (so 10 adds 1 die) - this may have been the rather wild-and-woolly Champions 3rd, though I'm sure it got converted to 4th at some point, so it could have been anything the GM felt OK with.


Anyway, I wonder, Ragnov, if what you're after is either closer to TK or closer to substituting EGO for DEX? Like, when your mental powers spill over into STR, is it STR that actually lifts physical objects?

[foolishvictor]

On 3/12/2021 at 4:13 PM, Ragnov said:

The character concept was "The Mental Brick". An ego so immense that it spilled over into the physical realm. Superhero name "The ID". I'd like to be able to pull off a mental moveby, haymaker, etc. The reason why I want the block/dodge to work is that I do not think it would be fair to attack someone without mental defense at the same power level as a traditional moveby, haymaker, etc.

 

This is a very odd concept.  (I applaud your creativity.) 

 

If you wish to combine the physical aspects of combat with mental powers then my suggestion would be to make use of the "Trigger" advantage. 

 

HA 6D6 + 0.5 Trigger + 1.0 Based on ECV => Real Cost: 45 in this example.

 

In game terms, when "The ID" succeeds in a moveby (or other maneuvers) it "triggers" the BoECV HA attack.  If you need more D6's to simulate a haymaker then you might buy more D6's with the limitation "Linked (-0.5)"  Optionally, you could add another limitation for the reduced DCV and extra segment needed for a haymaker.  As a guess those that last two would be worth -1 for a total of -1.5

 

+HA 3D6 +0.5 Trigger + 1 Based on ECV -1.5 for disadvantages => Real Cost: 9  So... Is it worth an extra 9CP to have access to a haymaker?

 

Is that what you are trying to simulate or am I missing something? 

[Ragnov]

On 3/15/2021 at 8:07 PM, Opal said:

Anyway, I wonder, Ragnov, if what you're after is either closer to TK or closer to substituting EGO for DEX? Like, when your mental powers spill over into STR, is it STR that actually lifts physical objects?

 

The idea is to actually be physically strong and have that strength based on ego combat value. That way you can tell he is strong, but when he attacks it's all ego combat value. There is nothing that states based on ego combat value prevents a character from using the power in other ways. I do want to keep strength as part of this.

On 3/23/2021 at 6:32 PM, foolishvictor said:

 

This is a very odd concept.  (I applaud your creativity.) 

 

If you wish to combine the physical aspects of combat with mental powers then my suggestion would be to make use of the "Trigger" advantage. 

 

HA 6D6 + 0.5 Trigger + 1.0 Based on ECV => Real Cost: 45 in this example.

 

In game terms, when "The ID" succeeds in a moveby (or other maneuvers) it "triggers" the BoECV HA attack.  If you need more D6's to simulate a haymaker then you might buy more D6's with the limitation "Linked (-0.5)"  Optionally, you could add another limitation for the reduced DCV and extra segment needed for a haymaker.  As a guess those that last two would be worth -1 for a total of -1.5

 

+HA 3D6 +0.5 Trigger + 1 Based on ECV -1.5 for disadvantages => Real Cost: 9  So... Is it worth an extra 9CP to have access to a haymaker?

 

Is that what you are trying to simulate or am I missing something? 

I thought about doing similar also, but it's just not a "Brick" way of doing things. For a "Brick" build leveraging strength, the route I'm taking makes more sense. If I went a martial artist route, then you are spot on for how to do it.

[Opal]

2 hours ago, Ragnov said:

The idea is to actually be physically strong and have that strength based on ego combat value. That way you can tell he is strong, but when he attacks it's all ego combat value. There is nothing that states based on ego combat value prevents a character from using the power in other ways. I do want to keep strength as part of this.

There is nothing that states based on ego combat value prevents a character from using the power in other ways.

 

That's interesting.  So it doesn't sound like TK. 

To further clarify this, when he attacks someone with this mental-power-based strength, does he actually simply punch them?  If that's the case, if the mental-power-based strength lifts objects, throws punches, and can be blocked, I'd also expect it to simply go against normal PD and do BOD, yes?

 

If so, you're closer to what I called 'substituting EGO for DEX.'   BoECV may not be the way to go, at all.   Buying 'mental power' F/X combat levels to bring your dex-based CV up equal to your ECV might work.   Or buying limited DEX (I'm not sure exactly what the limitation might be, maybe not counting for dex/skill checks, going first, etc?) up to equal his EGO. 

 

If you went either of those ways, OCV would clearly be used to block - but DCV would also be used to defend, in the first place, while in the OP, you said it was ECV v ECV that was intended.  If dodging is ECV, I'd expect blocking to be, too (and I'd expect it to go vs mental defense, not PD, and not to do BOD....)

 

For that matter, the f/x of 'mental power begins effecting the physical world' might be done with a limitation, what if your STR+HA attacked DCV and was rolled against PD, unless the targets ECV or mental defense was higher?  That makes a certain amount of sense, it's spilled into the physical world so physical defenses should work, but it's still mental in nature, so those defenses could still protect - prevent it from 'spilling over' to that particular target, in the first place?  It'd make the powers a lot cheaper.

 

...

 

As for BoECV power continuing to be useable in other ways, a BoECV attack does still normally stop doing BOD, yes?  Which means it stops doing knock back, can't be used to break objects, etc....   so, yes, it does seem like BoECV powers are no longer useable in all other ways.   A GM might reasonably rule that BoECV STR uses ECV for both attack and defense,  but doesn't inflict BOD and thus doesn't affect objects or creatures that don't have a mind (and don't have STN), doesn't do knockback and can't be used to lift or throw, etc...  a GM particularly uptight about point-savings might also decide that it stops adding to figured characteristics, too.