Superman Expy in the Hero Universe?

[Tywyll]

Are there any Superman 'clones' in the Hero universe? Either as heroes or villains? If so, what book do they appear in?

[Lawnmower Boy]

Vanguard is the CU's equivalent to Superman, but is strictly a background, historical character. I've seen two Superman tribute writeups, Viperia in Viper: Coils of the Servant; and Supernova, in Galactic Champions. I don't much like the Viperia writeup, but Supernova is an elegant design that does practically everything you want from a Superman at a low, low 2000 points or so. 

[Lord Liaden]

For the current official Hero Universe, Vanguard was very clearly the setting's analogue to Superman, in both the magnitude of his power and the respect in which he was held. However, Vanguard died during the Battle of Detroit in 1992, destroying the asteroid Dr. Destroyer had pulled into a collision course with the United States. Vanguard has never been given a published write-up, but his origin is detailed in Champions Beyond (he wasn't an alien, but his origin is connected to them), and a couple of stories involving him appear in Book Of The Destroyer, including his death and a B&W drawing. (Dr. Destroyer considered Vanguard one of his greatest foes.)

 

VIPER's most powerful staff supervillain, Viperia, receives a full write-up with character sheet and illo in VIPER: Coils Of The Serpent. Although her origin is mystical, her power set is classic Supergirl. This version of the character is an update of her from the 4E VIPER book in which she was a mutant, and her style was more "evil Supergirl."

 

Speaking of 4E, Hero System Almanac 1 gave us Australian twins who sequentially used the code-name, Captain Australia. Children of a cosmic being by a human woman, they both have a Superman/girl style, although they aren't as powerful in magnitude or scope of powers. They aren't part of the current official setting, though (at least not yet).

[Christopher R Taylor]

Viperia was a great character, I really liked the 4th edition VIPER book.  They took it less seriously and more classic comic bad guy agency.

[Lord Liaden]

10 minutes ago, Lawnmower Boy said:

Vanguard is the CU's equivalent to Superman, but is strictly a background, historical character. I've seen two Superman tribute writeups, Viperia in Viper: Coils of the Servant; and Supernova, in Galactic Champions. I don't much like the Viperia writeup, but Supernova is an elegant design that does practically everything you want from a Superman at a low, low 2000 points or so. 

 

I have to disagree about Supernova. His style and power set is much more Silver Surfer than Superman, with some similarities to Marvel's most recent Captain Marvel; although parts of his design could certainly be adapted for a Superman clone. Supernova is a wholly space-based character, and his unique mental gestalt of personalities makes him a hero only on occasion, and a villain on others.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Well, he's got a big chunk of strength, resistance, flight and maybe senses in his naked build, and then two VPPs, one for "brick tricks" and one cosmic. So I can certainly see why he'd be taken as a Silver Surfer clone, but my thought was that Silver Age Superman can do pretty much anything, including outsized feats of strength and survival that can be accommodated by buying Aids in the cosmic pool. As a result, this build can do pretty much anything Silver Age Superman can do, while retaining the character's quirky limits of a panel earlier (or later.) And on a standard length writeup, no less. 

 

So it is an elegant build, although a GM's nightmare, what with two separate VPPs to juggle. 

[Lord Liaden]

As I said, those are elements that could indeed by adapted for a Superman-style character. But you're also conveniently overlooking Supernova's two honking big Multipowers, for "Stellar Fire" blasts and for Movement. The power and variety of the former puts him out of the Superman mold, making him more of a "cosmic being." He's not a Silver Surfer clone by any means, but that's much more his niche in the superhero ecology.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Viperia's build IS Supergirl...right down to the heat vision. Depending on the campaign, you might want to give her some Damage Negation or Damage Reduction, but she's generally in that power range.

[Lawnmower Boy]

1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

As I said, those are elements that could indeed by adapted for a Superman-style character. But you're also conveniently overlooking Supernova's two honking big Multipowers, for "Stellar Fire" blasts and for Movement. The power and variety of the former puts him out of the Superman mold, making him more of a "cosmic being." He's not a Silver Surfer clone by any means, but that's much more his niche in the superhero ecology.

I figured that they worked as well for heat vision/breath and speed/flight. Silver Age Superman is pretty close to a cosmic character. Remember the time he sucked in the entire contents of a supertanker?

[segerge]

5 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Vanguard has never been given a published write-up, but his origin is detailed in Champions Beyond (he wasn't an alien, but his origin is connected to them), and a couple of stories involving him appear in Book Of The Destroyer, including his death and a B&W drawing. (Dr. Destroyer considered Vanguard one of his greatest foes.)

 

He also appears once in Book of the Machine, which includes the factoid that Vanguard's superhero costume was blue and gold.

[Lord Liaden]

3 hours ago, Lawnmower Boy said:

I figured that they worked as well for heat vision/breath and speed/flight. Silver Age Superman is pretty close to a cosmic character. Remember the time he sucked in the entire contents of a supertanker?

 

If your standard is going to be Silver Age Superman, fair enough.

 

1 hour ago, segerge said:

 

He also appears once in Book of the Machine, which includes the factoid that Vanguard's superhero costume was blue and gold.

 

Years ago one of our forum colleagues drew an illo of Vanguard based on that factoid and his B&W drawing in BOTD, and posted it to the forum. I saved it, but I must apologize for not remembering the artist. If anyone knows please give credit.

[pawsplay]

I think one reason there isn't a clear Superman analog is that it doesn't need one. The CU is clearly more heavily imprinted from Silver Age Marvel than anything else, with specific DC homages few and far between.

[Tywyll]

1 hour ago, pawsplay said:

I think one reason there isn't a clear Superman analog is that it doesn't need one. The CU is clearly more heavily imprinted from Silver Age Marvel than anything else, with specific DC homages few and far between.

Even Marvel Comics has Superman analogs though!

[Lord Liaden]

3 hours ago, pawsplay said:

I think one reason there isn't a clear Superman analog is that it doesn't need one. The CU is clearly more heavily imprinted from Silver Age Marvel than anything else, with specific DC homages few and far between.

 

No, there's a goodly number of DC homages: the Star*Guard (Green Lantern Corps), Meteor Man (Golden Age Green Lantern), Nighthawk (Batman at least in style), Kinetik (Flash), Scarlet Archer (Green Arrow), Black Harlequin (Joker/Toyman), the Witness (Phantom Stranger), the Brain Trust (Brotherhood of Evil), Queen Mara of Atlantis (Wonder Woman), the Drifter (Specter), Pantera/Lynx (Cheetah), Franklin Stone (robber-baron Lex Luthor), the Kingdom of the Apes (Gorilla City), the Justice Squadron (Justice League), Mordace (Sinestro), Megaera (Captain/Mary Marvel)... I could go on, but I think I made my point.

 

IMO the biggest reason there isn't a clear active Superman analogue in the present-day CU, is the same reason the office of Archmage remains officially unfilled (other than in Champions Online). Too many ultra-powerful NPCs steal the limelight from the PCs.

[BoloOfEarth]

20 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Viperia was a great character, I really liked the 4th edition VIPER book.  They took it less seriously and more classic comic bad guy agency.

 

Agreed, both about 4E Viperia and the 4E VIPER book.  Back when that first came out, I used that book to great effect, and my players *loved* fighting with, and messing with, Viperia.  One time, they managed to KO her long enough to snap some pictures with her (posing her in one well enough to blow up the picture into a poster that they swapped with some VIPER plans during a later adventure.  That poster soon graced many a VIPER Nest.   

[pawsplay]

19 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

No, there's a goodly number of DC homages: the Star*Guard (Green Lantern Corps), Meteor Man (Golden Age Green Lantern), Nighthawk (Batman at least in style), Kinetik (Flash), Scarlet Archer (Green Arrow), Black Harlequin (Joker/Toyman), the Witness (Phantom Stranger), the Brain Trust (Brotherhood of Evil), Queen Mara of Atlantis (Wonder Woman), the Drifter (Specter), Pantera/Lynx (Cheetah), Franklin Stone (robber-baron Lex Luthor), the Kingdom of the Apes (Gorilla City), the Justice Squadron (Justice League), Mordace (Sinestro), Megaera (Captain/Mary Marvel)... I could go on, but I think I made my point.

 

IMO the biggest reason there isn't a clear active Superman analogue in the present-day CU, is the same reason the office of Archmage remains officially unfilled (other than in Champions Online). Too many ultra-powerful NPCs steal the limelight from the PCs.

 

I didn't say zero. But the Marvel influence is primary, and any time the CU has a choice between the Marvel way and the DC way, it usually goes the Marvel way. And I don't consider your list definitive, either. Nighthawk has a little of Batman's style, but he uses deadly weapons. His story arc is more reminiscent of Nighthawk from Squadron Supreme who is himself something of a Batman expy. But if you got down to it, I would say Nighthawk is a closer analog to Daredevil than to Batman, and recent versions look a lot like Shadowhawk (who originated with Image). Star*Guard is a Nova Squadron homage. Scarlet Archer is just as much a Hawkeye homage. Kinetik is definitely not the Flash; if you look at his powers, he is more like Quicksilver or the Whizzer. The DC expies are not much more impactful in the CU than similar expies are in the Marvel universe.

The Champions are closer to the Avengers than the JL in style, spirit, and membership.

The Superman expies named in this thread are treated the same way in Marvel as in the CU; mostly as background characters, or subversions of the trope. By contrast, Superman fights other Supermans in his own comics.

 

The CU has a notable mutant population that is called as such, VIPER (which is Hydra), hot sleep facilities, and so forth. And the CU isn't impervious to other influences, not the least Image Comics and its wild 90s lineup of characters. But there is no clear Superman because the biggest superhero team in the world isn't modeled on the Justice League. Superman's role as universally recognized boy scout doesn't exist because that trope doesn't exist in the Marvel universe.

[Lord Liaden]

15 hours ago, BoloOfEarth said:

 

Agreed, both about 4E Viperia and the 4E VIPER book.  Back when that first came out, I used that book to great effect, and my players *loved* fighting with, and messing with, Viperia.  One time, they managed to KO her long enough to snap some pictures with her (posing her in one well enough to blow up the picture into a poster that they swapped with some VIPER plans during a later adventure.  That poster soon graced many a VIPER Nest.   

 

Blending elements of 4E and 5E VIPER is pretty easy to do, and worked well for my own campaign.

[Lord Liaden]

3 hours ago, pawsplay said:

 

I didn't say zero. But the Marvel influence is primary, and any time the CU has a choice between the Marvel way and the DC way, it usually goes the Marvel way. And I don't consider your list definitive, either. Nighthawk has a little of Batman's style, but he uses deadly weapons. His story arc is more reminiscent of Nighthawk from Squadron Supreme who is himself something of a Batman expy. But if you got down to it, I would say Nighthawk is a closer analog to Daredevil than to Batman, and recent versions look a lot like Shadowhawk (who originated with Image). Star*Guard is a Nova Squadron homage. Scarlet Archer is just as much a Hawkeye homage. Kinetik is definitely not the Flash; if you look at his powers, he is more like Quicksilver or the Whizzer. The DC expies are not much more impactful in the CU than similar expies are in the Marvel universe.

The Champions are closer to the Avengers than the JL in style, spirit, and membership.

The Superman expies named in this thread are treated the same way in Marvel as in the CU; mostly as background characters, or subversions of the trope. By contrast, Superman fights other Supermans in his own comics.

 

The CU has a notable mutant population that is called as such, VIPER (which is Hydra), hot sleep facilities, and so forth. And the CU isn't impervious to other influences, not the least Image Comics and its wild 90s lineup of characters. But there is no clear Superman because the biggest superhero team in the world isn't modeled on the Justice League. Superman's role as universally recognized boy scout doesn't exist because that trope doesn't exist in the Marvel universe.

 

Oh, man. I really don't feel like debating this, because everyone is entitled to their own perception and opinion. But you're presenting a lot of opinion as fact, which is not borne out by the book precedents.

 

Per his most recent write-up in Champions Universe: News Of The World, Nighthawk's only "lethal weapons" are Thermite Pellets and Throwing Blades, outnumbered by his Billy Club, Smoke Pellets, Sleep Gas Pellets, and Weakness Darts. In his Utility Belt. Batman has frequently used Bat-Shuriken, and acid, incendiary, even explosive charges, against non-living or very tough targets. Nighthawk's history in CU:NOTW also repeatedly emphasizes his investigative and undercover skills, which Daredevil isn't particularly noted for.

 

I know of a Nova Squadron in the Star Wars and Star Trek universes, but not in comics. If you mean Marvel's Nova Corps, in neither the comics nor the movies do they have a variety of powers focused in a single super-weapon (Green Lantern Power Ring, Star*Guard Star-Staff). The Nova Corps is not patronized by ancient highly-advanced aliens (Maltusian Guardians/Odrugaran Overseers). The Nova Corps does not have individual members assigned to protect specific "sectors" of space.

 

Green Arrow and Hawkeye are very similar characters, true. But the CU analogue is named Scarlet Archer, not Eagleye. And the first Scarlet Archer is a Golden Age character, as was Green Arrow. Kinetik is definitely not as fast as Flash, but he's no mutant like Quicksilver. He's a scientist who gained his powers from chemical exposure in a laboratory accident, like Flash.

 

The Champions are a recent team which doesn't have the legacy and continuity of the Justice League/Justice Society, and while they've gained a lot of attention since being founded they can't be called bigger than the Justice Squadron and the Sentinels, which are both nearly forty years older. The Justice Squadron in particular was first formed during WW II, and disbanded shortly after the war. But it was reformed by Vanguard and the Drifter in the early 1960s, and has had a distinctive continuity of membership. Vanguard (explicitly the most powerful superhero who ever lived) served with the JS for over thirty years, and the Drifter (one of the most powerful mages in the world) is still a reserve member. The team has included two successive heroes using the identity of Tomahawk, and three generations of a family with the name and powers of the Brawler.

 

IMO the closest CU analogue to the Avengers is the Sentinels, also founded in the early 1960s, with a rotating membership including Rocketman (Iron Man analogue), Microman (Ant-Man analogue), and Lightwave (Vision analogue). Speaking of the Avengers, "Superman's role as universally recognized boy scout doesn't exist because that trope doesn't exist in the Marvel universe." Excuse me? Captain America?

 

The CU does have a mutant population, but not the anti-mutant hysteria of the Marvel Universe. Mutant haters are a fringe element. But I never said there aren't Marvel elements in the CU. There are many. The CU doesn't try to reinvent the superhero wheel, and lifts liberally from both mainstream comics publishers. But to claim the Marvel influence eclipses the DC influence isn't supportable by the evidence.

[Lord Liaden]

Darren Watts had been planning a sequel to his Golden Age Champions, preliminarily titled Silver Age Champions, which would have included a full write-up for Vanguard. He's conducted an extensive playtest campaign for it. Sadly, the sales of GAC were disappointing to Darren, and he's concluded there isn't enough demand to justify further effort to bring it to publication.

[DreadDomain]

3 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Darren Watts had been planning a sequel to his Golden Age Champions, preliminarily titled Silver Age Champions, which would have included a full write-up for Vanguard. He's conducted an extensive playtest campaign for it. Sadly, the sales of GAC were disappointing to Darren, and he's concluded there isn't enough demand to justify further effort to bring it to publication.

That's a shame. I loved GAC.

[Duke Bushido]

Serious question from a guy who knows jack-diddly about comic books:

 

What are these ages?  Other Than oeriods of actual history, what sets one apart from another?  What is the difference?

 

 

[steriaca]

14 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

Serious question from a guy who knows jack-diddly about comic books:

 

What are these ages?  Other Than oeriods of actual history, what sets one apart from another?  What is the difference?

 

 

The Golden Age: Basically from Action Comics #1 to when E.C. Comics shut down all their horror comics.

 

The Dark Age: From the shut down of most of E.C. Comics stuff (except for Mad), till Fantastic Four #1.

 

The Silver Age: From Fantastic Four #1 till the Death of Gwen Stacy.

 

The Bronze Age: From the Death of Gwen Stacy till, um, the 90's.

 

The Iron Age: The 90's till the end of the Comic Book Crash (the oversaturation of event comics and special covers).

 

The Modern Age: After the crash till now.

 

Subages:

 

The Black And White Age: From Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles #1 till the early 90's.

 

The Manga Age: From Lone Wolf And Cub #1 till the end of Borders book store. 

 

Others are free to give more details. 

[HeroGM]

2 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

That's a shame. I loved GAC.

 

Shame, I'd have brought it. Maybe a poll first to see?

[Christopher R Taylor]

There was a platinum age, before Superman, of comics that had heroes but werent recognized as superheroes.  They had abilities and adventure stories, but didn't have the costume, the ethic, etc.

 

And Silver Age goes back before the Fantastic Four, basically to the reboot of classic golden age DC heroes like Green Lantern etc.  

 

Each "age" is roughly 20 years in length, or about one generation.  Each generation that comes along wants or produces something different.

 

Quote

Shame, I'd have brought it. Maybe a poll first to see?

 

All it would take is for someone to make a Silver Age Champions book and finish it, Hero will publish it if you make it and its not terrible.  There was not a huge uproar of demand for Western Hero but I wanted to see it updated and Jason was glad to work with me.  They're just not willing to pay someone or use company resources and time on something that they fear won't sell well enough to pay for it.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Other Than oeriods of actual history, what sets one apart from another?  What is the difference?

 

Golden Age is characterized by superheroes being invented and developed, they were new and the ideas of costumes, patterns of behavior, bad guys, even the idea of how to draw and write a comic were being developed.  Heroes were usually very good guys with very clear morality, but sometimes would kill -- or just let people die they might have saved -- because they were such bad guys.  Batman let someone fall into a vat of chemicals and die "he had it coming".  Superman literally threw a general over a forest at the horizon in one early comic.  Nazis are often the bad guys, or mobsters.

 

Silver Age is more kid friendly stuff, following the early Comics Code Authority and usually with kids involved (sidekicks, a gang of kids who get into trouble that the hero saves, etc).  Stories were absolutely wild and without any connection: the world gets turned into a cube of swiss cheese then back again, and the next issue, no mention or repercussions of that.  Science is more the focus, magic is about gone.  Commies are usually the bad guys, along with a bizarre variety of evil scientists, aliens, etc.  Zero continuity.

 

Bronze Age starts pushing the boundaries of the comics code, making things more edgy and reintroducing banned themes like undead and drugs and crime.  Heroes are flawed and have human characteristics, are more limited in power, and focus more on what they do when not saving the world in stories.  Continuity is king, carefully crafted universes start to be the norm for comic books.  More ripped from the headlines type bad guys and events.

 

Iron Age is EXTREME!!!!1!1!! with huge muscles and guns, and lots of violence and little heroism going on.  Characters are exaggerated versions of themselves, where a lean, fit superman becomes a monstrous body builder that is as huge as the hulk.  Stories are more driven by the LEET artwork with huge splash pages rather than the story. Continuity takes a back seat to what is cool.  Everyone seems angry, or at least constipated.  Dark, violent, and angry.

 

Modern Age has kind of abandoned almost all of the established patterns of superheroes.  Few have any real secret identity they care about any longer.  Few have any sort of code of ethics or nobility.  Many don't even really have costumes as such.  They're more just people with powers doing stuff with powers in action adventures or stories about how they hang out with their ethnically diverse cast of buddies and once in a while do something involving superpowers.  Continuity is irrelevant.  Often heavily partisan or political in tone.

 

I highly recommend the Explain This Comics Guys podcast for history on all this and a lot more.