A variant "density decrease"/"alternate desolid" idea...

[unclevlad]

Diffuse Body

Base cost:  3 per level

Costs END:  yes

 

Benefit:  +1 PD/ED;  +1 to Contortionist rolls

Side Effect:  for every 2 levels of Diffuse Body, the character's mass is reduced 50%.  (1 level would basically be 70%, so the net mass progression in percent would be 70, 50, 35, 25, 18, 13, 9, 6,....)

 

No increased KB;  the diffuse form absorbs the impact.  Also, this form can never pass through solid objects.

 

The costing is largely based on applying Costs END Every Phase to the base costs of the benefit.  Not sure if the defense should be normal or resistant;  if normal is the default, then Resistant would be a legal option.  

Another possibility is, it's normal defense but treated as Hardened;  an AP attack is generally *less* effective against a soft target, as the round slides through and takes the energy with out, rather than depositing it on target.

 

Costing...the skill level is 2 points always.  +1 PD/ED normal is 2 points, so 4 points per level.  3 levels would be 12;  with the -1/2 limit, it'd be 8.  (This works out better, IMO, than trying to examine level by level costing because the rounding becomes an issue.)  Whereas this power costs 9...but has no underlying Limitations applied to it, si any -1/4 or -1/2 Limitation applied to this Diffuse Body will have full benefit, and not be damped by others.  So I think it works out;  it's also simple and consistent with DI.

Also, unlike a 'density decrease' notion, it DOES make sense to allow DI and Diffuse Body together.  Could make for a nasty combo;  haven't spent a lot of time considering it yet...

EDIT:  another plausible construction is that the power costs 8 per level;  the benefit now is 1 die each of phys and energy Damage Negation, along with the +1 Contortionist.  Obviously, this favors the defensive aspect over the escape/movement aspect.

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

Interesting.  Honestly, if you are going to allow this build to have defensive potential inherent within it, then I think I prefer the second build.

 

There's nothing wrong with the first build, of course, but as you say: an attack will pass through, taking energy with it.  I can't help but think it will take more than a single pip with it.

 

The question that comes to mind is if you intend any sort of "counter" to this defense, ala "affects desolid," or if there are reasonably common things that will affect it normally: say sword slashes or electrical attacks or something.

 

[unclevlad]

A sword slash could be viewed as still mostly just parting the substance without really doing damage.  Try cutting egg white with a knife.  Electrical attacks...yeah, ok, but electricity doesn't get special status in most cases.

 

If it's defined as damage negation, then the usual Reduced Negation adder applies.  Which means no special rules...and even Affects Desolid is really kind of a special rule, as standard Desolid is a fairly rare, specialized power.  Not that this would be common.  So I don't see a need anything else.  And hey, it's not like this is a LOT cheaper than Damage Negation...in fact, it's very slightly higher than Negation alone...or that Damage Negation is that cost-effective to begin with.

 

And if someone wants to enhance the escape aspect, it'd be easy to buy more Contortionist levels, linked to Diffuse Body...or for that matter, buy the whole skill (if the GM would let you...I might, for this) linked to Diffuse Body.  Not ike it'd be saving a lot of points, and it does make sense.

[Opal]

Of course, just as with Shrinking and DI, I'm sure you see the tempation to buy neatly calibrated Diffuse Body and Growth to retain the same mass... ( IDK, The Sublimator or Expando or The High Inflationary or something) ...maybe it's just me. Of course, then you're wondering why you're so strong when you're floating away like a derrigible.... (ooh, Derigible Dude, there's another one)

(And it wouldn't need a counter, it's not absolute like Desol or NND or anything, it's just increased defense, the counter is doing more damage.)

[unclevlad]

Yeah, you could.  And...?  OK, you lose the mass aspect of the complication, but you're still too big for many spaces, and you're still having to deal with the fact that you're obvious and easy to hit.

 

Also:  the way I defined it, it's 1/2 mass per 2 levels...that was for the 3 point version, to be sure.  Hadn't decided whether it'd be 1/2 mass per level or per 2 levels, for the version giving damage negation.  I could go either way;  the first concept build I did last night was 1/2 mass per 2 levels.  But even at 1/2 mass per level, you need 3 levels to counter the Growth mass increase.  That's another 24 points, that costs END.  And all you've bought off, from the Growth, is the high-mass issue, NOT the full negative impact.

 

I think some of the problem you might be having is that the mass from Growth is NOT penalized appropriately by the book;  if you think it should be more severe, then ok, perhaps combos like this are more of a problem for you.  But then, the core problem isn't the combo, it's Growth itself.

[Opal]

Oh, no, it's simpler than that and nothing to do with manipulating the inherent issues with either power.

if you 'cancel' diffuse body with growth to maintain mass throughout, you're litterally expanding. Shrinking & DI is the reverse, you're compressing the same mass into a smaller body. In fact, a 'density control' character who conserved mass (which characters like Vision in the comics never seem to do) could have Shrinking & DI and Diffuse Body & Growth, using the first pair to compress himself and the second to expand. (obviously never using both pairs at the same time, that'd be as silly as using Growth & Shrinking at the same time - I'm the same size, but spending lots of END)

[unclevlad]

Atom has Shrinking and DI.  I can't remember if his DI is 'limited' to no more than his normal mass or not, but I'm pretty sure one of his tricks was the Neutronium Flea move...1" tall doing a move-through cuz he weighed 200 pounds.

 

Shrinking + Growth is pointless because the 2 are in direct opposition to each other.  In APG,, alternate desolid (which is density decrease) and DI are the same.  

 

Diffuse Body isn't in direct opposition with anything, altho it conceptually parallels standard Desolid.  It makes little sense to pay for full Desolid *and* Diffuse Body...but, it would mean that the damage negation from Diffuse Body would apply to attacks that have Affects Desolid, if you really wanted to do that.  And I might not have said this, but Diffuse Body would replace Alt Desolid.  1 level of Alt Desolid, as I read it, fundamentally means you *always* make a Contortionist roll to pass through rubble piles, bars, screens, etc. That's a LOT for 5 points, IMO, and it shows the power scales badly.  

 

And Diffuse Body + Growth...could probably think of it in some other ways than expanding, but so what?  Where's the problem?

 

Mass conservation as an element of shifts is almost non-existent, sure...but again, so what?  That's writers' choice.  The vast majority of characters with DI or Growth are bricks.  Who wants a foot-tall brick?  Or a 12' tall giant where the bullets just slide through without really doing anything, rather than bounce off?

 

So, I just can't see a problem with Diffuse Body...and, in fact, it makes much more sense as a staggered form of Desolid/complement to DI than alternate desolid.  Not in any rules sense. A constant-mass shifter sounds like a nifty power theme to me, actually.  Besides...it's also very easy to deconstruct the powers...Shrinking --> levels of DCV and the PER penalty (that has to be a custom power but that's no big);  DI --> STR and defenses.  In Growth + Diffuse, the only adjustment is actually saying the mass issue is lessened.  In some cases, getting the END costs to behave is a bit of a trip, but that's usually manageable.  It all works just fine.  Diffuse Body + DI is actually pretty cool;  think, say, the metal powders used in 3D printing with metals.  

 

To me, your objection is only that "I've never seen a comics character that worked that way."  And that's a non-starter for me.