Modern Champions

[Derek Hiemforth 546]

19 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Yeah and that's the idea I had that led to posting this thread: what was once amazing and super powered stuff is now mundane and ordinary.  I wrote both The Island of Dr Destroyer and the upcoming Champions Begins with the assumption that every superhero is also carrying around a smart phone of some sort (probably a cheap disposable so they can't be tracked in their secret identity, but still)

 

Agreed, and to be clear, when I posted above about paying CP for your iPhone, I was joking.    Regardless of what the rules say, I completely agree that we're now at a point where smartphones are so pervasive that paying CP to carry them would feel like paying CP for clothing or food or something...

[assault 1,145]

11 hours ago, foolishvictor said:

First, the character should have the 1cp perk for a driver's license.  

 

This is yet another thing I would let a character have for free (in a developed country, etc).

 

[Opal 109]

5 minutes ago, assault said:

This is yet another thing I would let a character have for free (in a developed country, etc).

Agreed.  Everyman Skills (and perks?) were a thing at one point, I'm sure.

 

Not being able to drive in modern (American, particularly rural or west coast) society is arguably a Disad (6th 'complication?).

[Sketchpad 289]

I had worked out some functional Wealth rules that went beyond "Hi I'm Wealthy" that worked pretty well. When we used it, there was some clear definitions in what we called "Gadgets" aka super gear that gave the hero an advantage, and "Gear" which was stuff you could buy in the local department or specialty shop. Oddly enough, we always defined hero costumes as Gear, but it had a limit in what it could do. Worked out pretty well. Hmm... might be a good subject for a PDF.

[pawsplay 122]

7 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

 

Yeah and that's the idea I had that led to posting this thread: what was once amazing and super powered stuff is now mundane and ordinary.  I wrote both The Island of Dr Destroyer and the upcoming Champions Begins with the assumption that every superhero is also carrying around a smart phone of some sort (probably a cheap disposable so they can't be tracked in their secret identity, but still)

 

 

Absolutely. Back in the day, you had Dick Tracy with his radio watch. Then in the 1980s, you have Batman running around with a micro camera and a micro cassette recorder on his utility belt.

[foolishvictor 13]

6 hours ago, Sketchpad said:

I had worked out some functional Wealth rules that went beyond "Hi I'm Wealthy" that worked pretty well. When we used it, there was some clear definitions in what we called "Gadgets" aka super gear that gave the hero an advantage, and "Gear" which was stuff you could buy in the local department or specialty shop. Oddly enough, we always defined hero costumes as Gear, but it had a limit in what it could do. Worked out pretty well. Hmm... might be a good subject for a PDF.

 

I have a quick question.  When the "gear" a character wants is above and beyond the mundane gear does the character pay the difference in cp or do they have to buy the whole thing?

 

Example:  If a mundane car is 20 cp and the character wants a mundane car that can generate a 10 cp smoke screen.  Thus the car the character wants would be 30cp.  Does the character pay 10cp (for the improvement) or 30cp for the whole vehicle?

[Sketchpad 289]

11 hours ago, foolishvictor said:

 

I have a quick question.  When the "gear" a character wants is above and beyond the mundane gear does the character pay the difference in cp or do they have to buy the whole thing?

 

Example:  If a mundane car is 20 cp and the character wants a mundane car that can generate a 10 cp smoke screen.  Thus the car the character wants would be 30cp.  Does the character pay 10cp (for the improvement) or 30cp for the whole vehicle?

 

"Gear" was always meant to be just stock equipment. As soon as you mod it in a way that kind of uplifts it into "Gadget" territory, you have to pay CPs for the entire thing. In your example, you would be the whole 30 CP as the car is no longer a Ford Pinto, it's now the HeroMobile. In game reasoning for such a thing would include having to modify the chassis or payload to mount a smoke projector, giving it better suspension, etc. Going forward, the hero could tweak the car a bit more as it goes from a 1979 Pinto to HeroMobile to HeroMobile mkII, etc. 

 

The same could be said about buying a costume. There was a limit in the armor you could buy (6rPD/ED IIRC). Once you bought more than that, your costume suddenly became a "SuperSuit" and was considered a "Gadget" that could be tricked out with other devices. 

[Jhamin 250]

On 4/7/2021 at 10:30 AM, Christopher R Taylor said:

Yeah and that's the idea I had that led to posting this thread: what was once amazing and super powered stuff is now mundane and ordinary.  I wrote both The Island of Dr Destroyer and the upcoming Champions Begins with the assumption that every superhero is also carrying around a smart phone of some sort (probably a cheap disposable so they can't be tracked in their secret identity, but still)

 

On the other hand, I'd say that on the Island of Doctor Destroyer you probably get Zero Bars while your Team Communicator Headsets built with superscience and bought as a special device still work.

The evil Doctor's missiles can also lock on to unauthorized IPhones.  The Team Communicators are probably a grey area.

 

 

I think people are overthinking letting PCs have smartphones.  Sure, they should be ubiquitous in the game just like they are in real life.  Your Character can call up Google Maps or Social Media, Take Photos of stuff close by, call other team members, etc but they are also going to be real limited just like they are in real life.
Smartphones are delicate, don't like water, don't like lots of high energy discharges, etc so be careful with it.  Assume all the super-science villains are hacking you.
Coverage in most major cities is going to be OK, although at least where I live the lower income parts of town are always the last to get the new stuff like 5G so your IPhone is going to do great in your stately manor but not as great in crime alley. 
If you have access to Police Databases or Military Satellites those are still point-worthy Perks if you get to them from a phone or the HeroComputer in your HeroCave.

I think the comparison to a Car is a good one.  There is a huge difference between a 2018 Toyota and the Batmobile and there is a huge difference between a Samsung Android and the Avengers Communicator Cards.  If you want to fight crime from your Honda Fit go for it but you aren't going to win any Fast & Furious car chases unless you pay points.  Same with the Smartphones inside a Viper nest.

[Opal 109]

13 hours ago, foolishvictor said:

I have a quick question.  When the "gear" a character wants is above and beyond the mundane gear does the character pay the difference in cp or do they have to buy the whole thing?

See, that's why I brought up Replaceable.   I don't think there's any precedent, for, say, starting with a mundane piece of gear and 'adding points to it.'

Replaceable was a -1/2 limitation in the original Star Hero, it was to recognize that in a setting where, say, anyone could pick up a 2dRKAe laser pistol, an alien with 2dRKAe laser-eye-beams was not really getting a whole lot for his 30 pts (I believe that was an example, it's been a few... decades).  

 

It was a cool idea and I don't recall it ever being used again.

 

Fantasy Hero, previously, had introduced "Independent" which was another way of dealing with the D&D-esque fantasy bit of "magic items."

[Jhamin 250]

7 minutes ago, Opal said:

See, that's why I brought up Replaceable.   I don't think there's any precedent, for, say, starting with a mundane piece of gear and 'adding points to it.'

Replaceable was a -1/2 limitation in the original Star Hero, it was to recognize that in a setting where, say, anyone could pick up a 2dRKAe laser pistol, an alien with 2dRKAe laser-eye-beams was not really getting a whole lot for his 30 pts (I believe that was an example, it's been a few... decades). 

 

See, I would argue that the 2d6RKA Eye Beams cant be disarmed, taken away, or run out of ammunition & wouldn't be affected by EMP Grenades.  They can be pushed and would run off END instead of a supply chain.

Basically, by actually buying them as a power you don't have to deal with the "Real Weapon" limit all the free equipment always has.

[Opal 109]

57 minutes ago, Jhamin said:

See, I would argue that the 2d6RKA Eye Beams cant be disarmed, taken away, or run out of ammunition & wouldn't be affected by EMP Grenades.  They can be pushed and would run off END instead of a supply chain.

Basically, by actually buying them as a power you don't have to deal with the "Real Weapon" limit all the free equipment always has.

IDK that there were EMP grenades or anything - nor if there might have been other adjustment powers out there that'd affect the alien - so that aside, you're in essence 'buying off' an OAF and maybe a few other limitations (chgs in clips, or maybe the sci-fi lasers are just 0 END) on a 30 Apt power.    Which, again, not typically something you do, but, theoretically, would be 15 points, maybe 20 if it's a total +2 in limitations....

...but never 30, no matter how limited the lasers may be.   So paying 30 is arguably over-paying, thus the 1/2 limitation, which gives a similar result, without the oddity of 'buying off' limitations on a 0-pt power or 'adding onto' an independent focus or whatever.

 

 

 

 

[Tjack 679]

On 4/7/2021 at 12:13 PM, assault said:

 

This is yet another thing I would let a character have for free (in a developed country, etc).

 

    As a GM, I’d allow it and not knowing how to drive, as a a very small limitation (maybe 3 pts.)  Spider-Man had it during the whole Spider-Mobile era.

[Jhamin 250]

2 hours ago, Opal said:

So paying 30 is arguably over-paying, thus the 1/2 limitation, which gives a similar result, without the oddity of 'buying off' limitations on a 0-pt power or 'adding onto' an independent focus or whatever.

I do see your point, but by that logic any alien that has horns or scaly skin should also get the 1/2 limit because there are knives and body armor.  Is Str cheaper if exo-skeletons are common in the setting?  It maybe isn't unfounded from a game logic point of view, but IMHO it stars to get weird when basically everything is cheaper because you can just use a gizmo anyway. 

 

If that is really how it works I start to wonder if Hero is the right system to run the game in.

[Christopher R Taylor 4,424]

Its just a question of what is standard common equipment and what is not for a setting.  Nobody has to pay points for the small life support vs temperature extremes their clothes give them.  

 

Its like Everyman skills: you get this stuff for free because in your culture pretty much everyone knows it.  Don't sweat building most of the world.  I mean its fun to list the body and defenses of common objects in a scenario, but really you can wing it as a GM and treat it with cinematic logic rather than exact math: would this be more fun and interesting for the battle if he crashes through or bounces off?

 

I've told the story here before of trying a move through out of an elevator shed to save a DNPC.  I rolled almost all 1's bounced off the wooden rooftop. 

 

As a more experienced GM I would have let the character crash through without rolling because come on, its a beautiful cinematic moment and we're not simulating The Tick here.

[pawsplay 122]

Another thing about cellphones worth noting is that you can't have a secret identity and have one. Apart from collecting all sorts of identifying information, cell phones are easily cracker, and the hacker can access not only your data but your camera and microphone. So a superhero in their costumed identity could at most use a prepaid "burner" phone.

[Sketchpad 289]

3 hours ago, Opal said:

See, that's why I brought up Replaceable.   I don't think there's any precedent, for, say, starting with a mundane piece of gear and 'adding points to it.'

Replaceable was a -1/2 limitation in the original Star Hero, it was to recognize that in a setting where, say, anyone could pick up a 2dRKAe laser pistol, an alien with 2dRKAe laser-eye-beams was not really getting a whole lot for his 30 pts (I believe that was an example, it's been a few... decades).  

 

It was a cool idea and I don't recall it ever being used again.

 

Fantasy Hero, previously, had introduced "Independent" which was another way of dealing with the D&D-esque fantasy bit of "magic items."

 

Replaceable was kind of neat, yeah. But there's no reason why that couldn't be in a build for "Gear" if needed. Let's say we define some Anti-Flare Goggles as 5pts Flash Defense, OIF, Replaceable. So that's 5 AP/3 RP/1 RP (if using Resource Points). I would still allow a hero to buy these with Wealth, as you can pick up something similar in a hardware store. That's kind of the purpose of having Wealth IMHO. But that's also the beauty of games like Hero, we all find what works for our games.

[Greywind 2,718]

7 hours ago, Tjack said:

    As a GM, I’d allow it and not knowing how to drive, as a a very small limitation (maybe 3 pts.)  Spider-Man had it during the whole Spider-Mobile era.

 

And after that, in a Team-Up with the Invisible Girl, in one of Johnny's cars, she made him drive. After it was all over she asked what was wrong. He told her that he can't drive.

[Tjack 679]

2 hours ago, Greywind said:

 

And after that, in a Team-Up with the Invisible Girl, in one of Johnny's cars, she made him drive. After it was all over she asked what was wrong. He told her that he can't drive.

  I remember that one.

[dmjalund 1,273]

Not being able to drive in NYC is less of a disadvantage than it is elsewhere in the US

[pawsplay 122]

I'm pretty sure not driving is just selling back your Everyman TF.

[Sketchpad 289]

Not having a driver's license is a great Quirk Complication if you use them.

[Colossus 7]

It depends on the game.

 

It is reasonable to give a simple smart phone to any character who could normally afford one in most modern games.  I would only charge points if they wanted a super secure commiunication line or apps that simulated something not on a normal smart phone.  Carrying a calculator for example is not the same as lighting calculator (you have to take an acton to pull out the phone and type in the numbers at the very least).    

 

In the same way I have no problem with a character who has normal or higher wealth having a car or a motorcycle, but if they want to start modifying it they need to spend points.  You want a Ford Festa fine that's free, you want the Batmobile, not so much.

 

The fact that most of us carry a way to access the internet in our pocket means a lot of knowledge skills seem less useful, until you release two things.  Looking up an article and reading it takes tine and the articles on the internet are often wrong.   

 

 

[Jhamin 250]

On 4/27/2021 at 12:13 PM, Colossus said:

The fact that most of us carry a way to access the internet in our pocket means a lot of knowledge skills seem less useful, until you release two things.  Looking up an article and reading it takes tine and the articles on the internet are often wrong.  

 

I try to get my players to really understand how different reading the Wikipedia entry or watching a youtube video is not the same as actually having the skill.  There is a huge difference between reading a tutorial on fixing a carburetor and actually knowing what's wrong when the car won't start.  Especially if you are trying to be sneaky or quick.

 

I know when I talk to my buddy who went to buddhist seminary he has stuff drilled into his head about esoteric theology and obscure monks that you will *never* find on an internet search unless you already know what you are looking for.  So when the PCs find the remnants of a satanic ritual in their investigation I'm pretty willing to buy that googling "Satan Ritual" isn't going to tell them much that is useful the way "Christian Theology: 12-" will

[Sketchpad 289]

On 4/27/2021 at 1:13 PM, Colossus said:

The fact that most of us carry a way to access the internet in our pocket means a lot of knowledge skills seem less useful, until you release two things.  Looking up an article and reading it takes tine and the articles on the internet are often wrong.   

 

21 hours ago, Jhamin said:

 

I try to get my players to really understand how different reading the Wikipedia entry or watching a youtube video is not the same as actually having the skill.  There is a huge difference between reading a tutorial on fixing a carburetor and actually knowing what's wrong when the car won't start.  Especially if you are trying to be sneaky or quick.

 

I know when I talk to my buddy who went to buddhist seminary he has stuff drilled into his head about esoteric theology and obscure monks that you will *never* find on an internet search unless you already know what you are looking for.  So when the PCs find the remnants of a satanic ritual in their investigation I'm pretty willing to buy that googling "Satan Ritual" isn't going to tell them much that is useful the way "Christian Theology: 12-" will

 

That's one of the reasons why I'm a big fan of having just skill modifiers with computers than the skill itself. Rather than a "KS: Internet Chat Etiquette 14-" I would rather have "KS: Internet Chat Etiquette +3" as it modifies the skill of the user.

[Christopher R Taylor 4,424]

Quote

 

I try to get my players to really understand how different reading the Wikipedia entry or watching a youtube video is not the same as actually having the skill.

 

Its basically like cramming.  You can watch a Youtube Video and get an 8- roll, if you do the task while watching.