Jump to content

Champions Icons


steriaca

Recommended Posts

Quote

Iron Man debuted in 1963, and his origin was based in the Vietnam war, not Korean

 

It was later retconned to be Vietnam, but originally it was Korea, as we weren't really involved in Vietnam much in 1963. Then it was retconned to be Gulf War or something like that later, because you know, he was still around 30 and it was a recent war.  Then they came up with a faux war in a nonexistent country to be their generic "here's where our vet came from" like the Punisher (Formerly Nam vet).

 

Quote

'Floating time' is a tool for publishers, not GMs at the table

 

Sure, which is what Hero Games it.  So when you say "Dr Destroyer wiped Detroit off the map on x date" that locks in time so that in 30 years it starts seeming kind of silly.  The more nebulous you are with time, the less locked in you are.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, the more we talk about it, the less I like it.

 

People are products of their time.  Moving them around in time either changes who they are, or what they represent in the new context.   1963 Tony Stark was white by default, and 'millionaire industrialist,' defense contractor, playboy, and genius inventor all carried different, mostly more positive connotations (OTOH, alcoholic, which came a bit later, is not so negative today as it was then).   IMHO, the Marvel Movies didn't go far enough in rehabilitating him, and thus made the character less heroic and positive than he originally was.

 

I suppose it's not nearly as pernicious as the expostmodern tendency we see today of leaving the characters in their proper time, but projecting wild anachronism unto them and/or the period.   

 

The former does a disservice to the character, the latter to history, and we know what happens when we don't learn from history.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, Opal said:

People are products of their time.  Moving them around in time either changes who they are, or what they represent in the new context.

 

You make a very strong argument, and as I think about it there are several Champions "Iconics" that make more sense in 1985 than now and suffer from the movement.

 

I do think some characters are more mobile than others.  You are very correct on your look at Iron Man, and I feel like every take on the Fantastic Four that severs them from their cold war origins has weakened them.  I'm pretty sure the new Superman TV show starts with Clark Kent getting laid off from the daily planet because journalism isn't really a stable career anymore.
Spiderman's "Geeky Kid with a responsibility complex turned hero" has aged pretty well, although the specifics of that that look like have changed a lot over time.  They even transferred the character concept to Miles Moralis while changing most all of the details and dammit if he isn't a great Spider Man too.

To bring this back to Champions, I think it makes sense whenever they do a "7th edition" Champions Universe to leave some of the characters modern while leaving others in the past as "historical" characters.  Maybe even have them as the suggested villains for various "ages" of Champions if books like "Silver Age Champions" or "Bronze Age Champions" ever come out to exist along side "Golden Age Champions", which manages to have pretty era-appropriate villainy.

Baddies like Black Paladin, Bulldozer (toxic masculinity is pretty "with the times"), Leech, Ogre, Shrinker and many others aren't particularly tied to a time and could work just fine in the 2020s even if they were written in the 80s, assuming you adjust anything incongruent about their backstories.

On the other hand, Eurostar seems a bit dated in the era of the EU and Sunburst is way to tied too nuclear weapons & the cold war to really work in the 2020s.  Both make great "Silver Age" villains if you move them back to the 70s and 80s.

Mechanon is a great villain for most eras, and could straddle several.
I think Doctor Destroyer has suffered from some concept bloat over time.  He is the big bad of the Champions U, but he also has WWII German Origins, a hidden valley in not-tibet filled with loyal followers, island bases, space stations, and in actual play his power level sort of requires you treat him more like Thanos than Doctor Doom (complete with superpowered followers that are more powerful than most heroes).  He can work in most eras but is sort of all over the place and might benefit from a trim in concept.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Jhamin said:

I do think some characters are more mobile than others.  

Sure.  I suppose it's like literature, some is timeless, some isn't.

 

Shakespeare's plays have been brought forward into various time periods and still worked.   1815's Emma adapted neatly to the screen in 1995's Clueless.

 

Maybe I'm just noticing it acutely in these cases as I actually lived in and remember much of the Silver Age time period - and, lacking the good sense to have died young, also inhabit the current day.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

It was later retconned to be Vietnam, but originally it was Korea, as we weren't really involved in Vietnam much in 1963.

 

Eh, that's debatable. President Kennedy increased the number of "military advisors" in Vietnam from hundreds to thousands, and direct military aid to South Vietnam grew to well over $100 million per year by 1963. By that point the United States was already the SV government's primary foreign backer.

 

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I am a big fan of a steady, progressive history (that's what Marvel Comics tried to do, at first) but its not typical of comic books and I do not think that is what the Champions Universe is trying to do.

 

I believe it was what Hero was trying to do with the Champions Universe, but the effort couldn't be sustained. You can see a number of in-setting events and changes listed not just in News Of The World, but between the 5E and 6E editions of Champions Universe, and other books advancing the time line like Book Of The Destroyer. The events in published Champions adventures like Champions Battlegrounds, Shades Of Black and Sharper Than A Serpent's Tooth became incorporated into the official time line, in the years in which they were published.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I remember Reed Richards remarking he served in the army during the Korean War. Of course that was in a comic from the late 1970s. But Marvel characters may be immortal, artificially de-aged, get longevity treatments, are kept in suspended animation, travel through time, are cloned, get resurrected, and experience all other sorts of birthday-defying phenomena.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is Doctor Destroyer's problem the fact that he does too much, or is it that he is tied up in the WW2 past, and creeping to the "how is this old geezer still alive" category? In 4ed it makes a little bit more sense because we assumed he was locked into his armor, and would die without it. In 5ed/6ed, not so much.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For my tastes, a bit of both.

 

Nazi Germany is Iconic Evil, but each decade that passes makes it more awkward to say somebody around tdhen is still around now. It's not an insurmountable problem, but it demands consideration. In DD's case, I'm okay with saying that, yeah, he has anagathic drugs or tech.

 

But I also have to agree about the concept bloat. I think he could use some pruning back to essential concepts. Part of what makes a character iconic is a focused, coherent concept, and DD has gotten cluttered.

 

DEan Shomshak

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, Jhamin said:

 

I tend to agree with this.  I used to actually run White Wolf games back when their meta plot started dictating that certain PCs were either no longer "canon" or were the last of their kind because of what happened in this book or that book.  I ended up having to ignore more and more of their world building as it was interfering with the games I was running.  Then they ended their setting in a choose your own apocalypse... while my PCs were still playing every week.

 

Heh, I tried, back when I did freelance work for WW. My introduction to Nights of Prophecy discussed adapting their metaplot to your game, and my contribution to Gehenna was light on setting NPCs and tie-ins to the rest of "setting continuity."

 

As writing guidance, I read a volume of the Transylvania Chronicles. It seemed pretty much to be, "Here's what these very important and powerful characters are doing. Your PCs react to it." I thought that sucked, so I wrote as I pleased, trying to keep the focus on PCs, including occasional notes on "What happens if the PCs blow off this obvious plot hook you waved in front of them." The developer didn't seem to mind, so I guess it was an acceptable approach.

 

Dean Shomshak

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Doctor Destroyer in 5E/6E isn't completely "locked" into his armor, but he does wear it nearly constantly, because his aging is slowed by its systems. So, practically the same deal.

 

My problem with DD isn't his concept, or any "cluttering," but that as a character he's very superficial. You can summarize him in three words: power, intellect, arrogance. That's it. There are no layers to him, no shadings. I admire Steve Long's writing for several qualities, but in Book Of The Destroyer he wasted the opportunity to put some role-playing meat on those megalomaniacal bones. Despite going over Albert Zerstoiten's whole history, the book gives almost no sense of what people and events shaped him, what led to him becoming the man he is. His attitudes seemed to emerge nearly full-blown from childhood, like Athena from the brow of Zeus.

 

He does make for a cool-looking avatar, though. :winkgrin:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

My problem with Doctor Destroyer isn't his concept, or any "cluttering," but that as a character he's very superficial. You can summarize him in three words: power, intellect, arrogance. That's it.

 

This seems fair.  He has a lot of stuff going on but no real indication as to *why* he does any of it or how he got there. 
I say he is "cluttered" because there are so many moving pieces with him but we don't know how any of them go together or why he bothers to maintain them.

IMHO part of what makes Mechanon work is having "Kill all Organic Life" as his motivation.  You understand why he feels that way, It's concise, the heroes are almost certainly against it, and it gives him a lot of room as to how to do it (which means there are a lot of stories he can be involved with)

 

I can go either way on the Nazi/WWII connection, I mention it because its one more "thing" about him.  I think there is some dialog from him from way back in "Day of the Destroyer" where he himself says people worry too much about it and Nazi Philosophy doesn't really have anything to do with him.

 

Is it important that he is as old as he is?  Is his struggle with his mortality important to who he is?

 

What about his hidden valley of followers?  Why does he care about them?  Does he care about them?  They are a convenient handwave for where he gets all those troops and guys in jumpsuits that work in his lairs, but we never really question where Viper recruits all those guys.  Has anything actually been done with the people who worship him?

 

He keeps a bunch of super powered enforcers.  What do they enforce?  Why?  What are they protecting him from that his armor can't handle?  I get that minions are helpful to take care of stuff when you are busy but with all the drama that they seem to engender why not use robots?

 

IMHO his power level is problematic.  In-universe he fights dozens of superheroes and kills them while he walks away with some damage to his armor.  Any PC Team built to campaign guidelines is years of play away from being able to actually survive 6 phases against him let alone actually beat him.  Its fine to have those characters running around, but it does raise the question of why he keeps hatching all these plans if he can just smash the heroes without much to stop him.  At least with Takofanes he has an alien way of thinking so you don't really know why he does what he does.


I always wanted to know what Dr. D planned on doing with the world once he conquered it?  Why does he care?  Lots of people want to rule the world, why is his version of conquest better or worse than (say) Istvatha's?

 


Part of what is so great about Thanos is his mentality.  Thanos' plan to kill half of all life in the universe is actually motivated by altruism on his part, he believes everyone will thank him in the long run.  It is insane, and doesn't make sense if you look at the details, but thats why he is a supervillain.  I also thing it's fascinating that he has demonstrated that if he succeeds he will give up ultimate power, retire, and live quietly.  Doctor Destroyer is such a blunt instrument compared to that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

23 minutes ago, Jhamin said:

Is it important that he is as old as he is?  Is his struggle with his mortality important to who he is?

Actually yes, as without his armor he is an evil, male Betty White. (I know it is not accurate, but go ahead and laugh at that.) No other villain is that old and actually worries about his legacy like Doctor Destroyer does.

23 minutes ago, Jhamin said:

What about his hidden valley of followers?  Why does he care about them?  Does he care about them?  They are a convenient handwave for where he gets all those troops and guys in jumpsuits that work in his lairs, but we never really question where Viper recruits all those guys.  Has anything actually been done with the people who worship him?

These guys exist primarily to give you an "this is how I'll rule when I become world king". How a villain treats those under him reflects how he will rule once he becomes the world king.

23 minutes ago, Jhamin said:

He keeps a bunch of super powered enforcers.  What do they enforce?  Why?  What are they protecting him from that his armor can't handle?  I get that minions are helpful to take care of stuff when you are busy but with all the drama that they seem to engender why not use robots?

His supervillain henchmen are basically ways to keep his eyes on his rivals. As the saying goes, keep your friends close, and your enimies closer.

 

Beyond that, he doesn't exactly need a supervillain arm of his army except for one fact: even Destroyer can't be at more than two places at once.

23 minutes ago, Jhamin said:

I always wanted to know what Dr. D planned on doing with the world once he conquered it?  Why does he care?  Lots of people want to rule the world, why is his version of conquest better or worse than (say) Istvatha's?

In general, it is whatever the GM wants. Getting full control of the world is a heck of a way to carve out a legacy which if done right last long after you die.

23 minutes ago, Jhamin said:

Part of what is so great about Thanos is his mentality.  Thanos' plan to kill half of all life in the universe is actually motivated by altruism on his part, he believes everyone will thank him in the long run.  It is insane, and doesn't make sense if you look at the details, but thats why he is a supervillain.  I also thing it's fascinating that he has demonstrated that if he succeeds he will give up ultimate power, retire, and live quietly.  Doctor Destroyer is such a blunt instrument compared to that.

True. But his motivation is not to bone some entity responsible for taking souls to an afterlife (opps, that's Deadpool's motivation, but close enough). His is to be more than a memory after he is gone. Why kill people who could help in creating the legacy.

 

Of course, he actually plans on eventually gaining immortality so he can enjoy his legacy. Your mileage may vary.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, DShomshak said:

For my tastes, a bit of both.

 

Nazi Germany is Iconic Evil, but each decade that passes makes it more awkward to say somebody around tdhen is still around now.

An easy one is to just change "...was a Hitler Youth in 1939" to  "...was a neo-Nazi skinhead in 1989"  'nother 50 years of villainous origin longevity, right there.

 

There'll always be "Nazis" to punch. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, steriaca said:

In general, it is whatever the GM wants.

 

I cut your specific responses but I did read them all.  I think we are talking past each other.  I understand everything you say, I'm asking if it is important that all these bits are part of his character.

 

Sure, how he treats his minions shows how he will treat the world, but we haven't gotten much about how he will treat them and less about how they feel about it.  If that part of his character isn't being developed, why include it?  This is the difference between a comic book villain and a comic book game villain. 

I think most Hero players are super good at doing what they want & we all understand the GM controls it all.  We aren't playing our 3rd game of D&D here. :)
This is a discussion about what is presented for us to digest.  I don't want to Rule Zero/GM's choice the main Big Bad of the setting.  If I have to do all the work I may as well home-brew.  I buy villain books so that I can use them & I don't want to decide what Destroyer's ultimate goal is.


Lets boil Destroyer down to his essence and maybe give PCs a reason to care about him other than as a generic dude in armor with a cape to stop from taking over the world.  Right now Mechanon the Kill-Bot has more personality than he does.

 

Fiacho hates how divided Europe is & doesn't care who gets hurt putting it together.  That generates adventures.

Black Paladin is an evil knight from the days of King Arthur who believes himself to be honorable & is obsessed with his dead lover.  That generates adventures.

Foxbat insanely believes he is living in a comic book.  That generates adventures.

Doctor Destroyer is useful as the go to "guy with a volcano lair and a death ray to conquer the Eastern Seaboard" but we don't know why he cares other than he thinks hes awesome and he is too powerful for the PCs to actually defeat.  There isn't much to actually do with him.  Dr Evil from Austin Powers and his out of touch "ransom the world for a million dollars when his front company is worth billions" at least has some role-playing potential.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dr. Destroyer's supervillain operatives do serve a useful purpose in a game context, though. They give PCs who aren't ready to tackle DD directly someone to fight who's more in their weight class. With everything the Doctor has going on in the world he must need to delegate the supervision of some of his operations. In going up against his lieutenants the PCs can have the satisfaction of putting a dent in Destroyer's schemes. As they become more powerful and prominent they'll grow from annoyance to actual threat, until the D-man decides they warrant his personal attention.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Jhamin said:

 

Doctor Destroyer is useful as the go to "guy with a volcano lair and a death ray to conquer the Eastern Seaboard" but we don't know why he cares other than he thinks hes awesome and he is too powerful for the PCs to actually defeat.  There isn't much to actually do with him.  Dr Evil from Austin Powers and his out of touch "ransom the world for a million dollars when his front company is worth billions" at least has some role-playing potential.

And this is wrong how? Sometimes all you have is an egotistical madman with a "look what I can do, tremble before my might" guy. Why does he want to concur the world? It is summed up in "who else has the brains and power to do so?" question. The bad doctor believe it is his destiny to do this, he has the smarts and the power to do this. And to him, it is his destiny.

 

Of course, this is a rather thin reason, but remember he is a supervillain from a comic book based roleplaying game. He doesn't need any thicker motivation.

 

...but if you need something with more meat on it's bones, look at the new motivation of Doctor Doom. He is convinced that he MUST concur the world to prevent something else from doing the same. He actually thinks he is saving the world from a great future evil if he can actually control the world.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've always thought of Dr. Destroyer being concerned about people and organizations who are on his same power level or who could become a threat to him if he weren't monitoring them and manipulating events so that they didn't succeed in taking over the world.

 

You not only have to take over the world but you have to think 18 steps ahead to figure out who would be in position to take it away from you. 

 

Menton. Mechanon. Eurostar. VIPER. VOICE.

 

Alien invasions which don't happen because Dr. Destroyer did something to stop it. Alien invasions which do happen because Dr. Destroyer did something to cause it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

BOTD points out that Dr. Destroyer monitors potential opponents and rivals closely, and has developed strategies for dealing with them when he needs to remove them.

 

I think one could make a case for the Golden Avenger of PRIMUS being an iconic Champions hero. There's been a Golden Avenger in the CU since Third Edition through Sixth. Granted, it hasn't been the same man using that identity for all of that time; and the original Avenger's motives were questionable at best. But his successor in the role is unquestionably an honorable and heroic person.

 

If the CU time line continued to progress normally, we'd probably be on our third Golden Avenger by now. Another spot where the CU could use an update.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

still thinking about Doctor Destroyer's Nazi past...

 

IMO he does need an origin in Nazi Germany. The core of Nazism isn't racism, as such: it's an aggrieved sense of superiority denied, raised to megalomaniac extreme. Hating Jews, Slavs, Blacks, fill-in-the-blank, is an attempt to find a scapegoat that can be blamed and killed.

 

Doctor Destroyer carries this to the (il)logical conclusion: He doesn't believe in "Master Race" nonsense, because as an individual he is so superior to everyone! And the stupid masses refuse to acknowledge it! So he's going to force the world to admit he's smarter, superior to everyone. And just as the Nazis couldn't imagine proving German superiority by any means but conquest, Destroyer cannot imagine proving his superiority by any means but conquest.

 

So, what would Destroyer do with the world if he ruled it? In this interpretation, he hasn't much thought about it. From what I've heard, Hitler hadn't much thought about what Germany would do once the Thousand-Year Reich was established, except more of same and build lots of oversized Neoclassical government buildings as monuments to its own glory. Destroyer might have a list of scientific research projects he'd like to do once he has the resources of the entire world to play with, but he doesn't have any coherent philosophy of government. It's all psychodrama, an insatiable craving for more terrified adulation.

 

Iconic characters tend to be simple. That's part of what makes them iconic. Sometimes the details of their past can be adjusted, as it doesn't matter what battlefield Tony Stark was wounded on while visiting. But Nazi Germany is just too perfect for giving young Albert Zerstoiten his psychological inspiration, with Hitler as his living model for puffing oneself up into a living god. I don't think it works as well if you roll his timeline forward 50 years. Nazis are iconic evil; Neo-Nazis are kind of pathetic.

 

Dean Shomshak

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, DShomshak said:

I don't think it works as well if you roll his timeline forward 50 years. Nazis are iconic evil; Neo-Nazis are kind of pathetic.

OK, maybe not for Dr. D, personally, but for keeping rank & file Nazis available for punching.

 

And, while the last peak of Naziness in America in the 80s was pretty pathetic, Homeland Security has called out 'white supremacists' and 'right-wing militias' as the gravest terrorist threats in recent years, and they're basically the same thing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd say the Champions Universe hasn't really had much of a Nazi or white supremacist presence, not in printed materials at least.  Destroyer's past doesn't actually seem to inform his present activities, not any more than Hydra's in the MCU.  Technically they had a Nazi past, but clearly they don't really follow any of the tenets of fascism.

 

There's a real danger of watering down and redefining that great evil until people forget what it was.  Hint: it wasn't just "bullies"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...