AlgaeNymph Posted April 20, 2021 Report Share Posted April 20, 2021 One of foremost powers of Brangomar, the Shadow Queen is "fairy tale-style" magic. All well and good but what does that even mean? Yes, I know it denotes a particular flavor and set of limitations but I'm afraid I'm not literate enough to know what those are presently. Might somebody be informed enough to know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archer Posted April 20, 2021 Report Share Posted April 20, 2021 Considering djinn, fairy godmothers, and fairy godfathers, I'm at a loss to think of anything that fairy tale magic couldn't do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkdguy Posted April 20, 2021 Report Share Posted April 20, 2021 Granting wishes, transforming people to animals, causing people to fall into enchanted sleep, Charming people to be your lovers/slaves for years. No direct damage spells like fireball. Jhamin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted April 20, 2021 Report Share Posted April 20, 2021 Wishes are not open ended, but have a monkey's paw element to them. Things often come in sets of three or, less commonly, seven. Trying to take shortcuts of any kind opens you up to consequences. Lawnmower Boy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tjack Posted April 20, 2021 Report Share Posted April 20, 2021 The more powerful the spell the easier it is to undo. Every magical deal has an escape clause. ie; Discover my name (Rumplestilskin)or “bring me a cow white as milk, hair like gold and a cloak red as blood.” (Into the Woods) No wishing for love or death. (Disney’s Aladdin) Elf/Fairy magic can be destroyed by iron. Fairy tale magic can do almost anything but by its very nature it has strict rules and limitations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted April 20, 2021 Report Share Posted April 20, 2021 Looking at some examples from fairy tales: accelerating the growth of/animating plants, e.g. walls of thorns, grasping tree branches or vines; conjuring/summoning animals, solo or in groups; changing one's form into an animal, a monster like a dragon, or to resemble another person; transforming someone else, such as making them old or hideously deformed, or turning them into an animal, possibly under the magician's command; cursing someone with perpetual sleep, or madness; enchantments through an object, e.g. poisoned fruit or sharp items whose prick brings a curse; enchantments through crafts, like spinning straw into gold, or forging weapons. Beneficial effects are also possible, such as blessings of health, strength, or beauty, especially on newborn children. Lawnmower Boy and AlgaeNymph 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archer Posted April 20, 2021 Report Share Posted April 20, 2021 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Once_Upon_a_Time_(TV_series) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opal Posted April 21, 2021 Report Share Posted April 21, 2021 2 hours ago, AlgaeNymph said: One of Brangomar's foremost powers is "fairy tale-style" magic. All well and good but what does that even mean? IDK who that is. But, considering my audience, I'd say that "Fairy Tale" magic functions to teach a moral/in-group/role-affirming/conformity lesson. Don't stay on the path? Bad things happen. Do follow the elders' instructions even though they sound batshit crazy? You prevail. Unfailingly polite to even weird creatures? You make your way past them unmolested. Violate cultural norms? (unless, it's a batshit crazy thing an elder told you to do) Get transformed into something icky. Grailknight, Chris Goodwin and Lord Liaden 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted April 21, 2021 Report Share Posted April 21, 2021 Brangomar, aka the Shadow Queen, most recently written up Champions Villains Volume One: Master Villains, is essentially Disney's Maleficent (the classic animated version from Sleeping Beauty, not live action); except that instead of being a dark faerie queen who can transform into a dragon, Brangomar is a dragon using magic to appear as a human-like woman. Her personality and style are very much like Maleficent, and like the evil Queen in Disney's Snow White. Brangomar rules a land called the Shadow Realm in the dimension of Faerie, that being the sum of all the lands, races, creatures, and gods from human myth and legend. The Shadow Queen is also a powerful sorceress in the aforementioned "fairy-tale" magic style. AlgaeNymph, Opal and Spence 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted April 21, 2021 Report Share Posted April 21, 2021 I'm considering using Brangomar in an adventure set in New Zealand. Because of the LOTR movies, of course. drunkonduty, Ninja-Bear and Opal 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted April 21, 2021 Report Share Posted April 21, 2021 I'd also look at Takofanes. The Turakian Age almost is Middle-Earth, after all. Tak might think he's gone home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted April 21, 2021 Report Share Posted April 21, 2021 Maybe. He's horribly overpowered and doesn't have any obvious "go home" buttons to push though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted April 21, 2021 Report Share Posted April 21, 2021 The Shadow Queen was one of the major villains in my last Champions campaign. It worked quite well to have Black Paladin as her lieutenant. Because of the faerie tale nature of her realm, I used Disney-esque elements in the encounters with the villains and describing her kingdom. Because it amused the Shadow Queen, one of the heroes became involved in a singing contest with Black Paladin, which the fallen knight wasn’t going to do until she spelled him into it. It later became known in that campaign that Black Paladin has “a marvelous singing voice.” Nekkidcarpenter, Amorkca, AlgaeNymph and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted April 21, 2021 Report Share Posted April 21, 2021 The Shadow Queen often hires Earthly supervillains for her schemes, particularly supernatural ones who fit her medieval/fantasy motif. For one story arc I gave her a whole cadre of "knights," her Obsidian Table, led by Black Paladin and including Hell Rider, Morningstar, Lightning Man, Matachin, Shadowdragon (from a different culture, but his code-name pleased her), and Harpy (Brangomar's jealousy normally precludes women, but she saw Harpy's bird-form as ugly and therefore non-threatening). Steve, AlgaeNymph and Amorkca 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlgaeNymph Posted April 21, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2021 I've been giving this some thought, and if I may answer my own question I'd like to list some common elements I've observed. Foremost, fairy tale magic has to advance the story. For example, teleporting oneself to a christening to bestow a curse, but not to reposition oneself during combat. Spells are flashy one-off sort of things. Fairy tale magic is less of a toolkit and more a set of narrative devices; thus, a generalist spellcaster isn't going to be utilitarian with their repertoire. Anything permanent has a high price, fatal flaw, or escape clause. There could be sociocultural reasons, but I suspect it's more an expedient to give Random Peasant Hero a fighting chance. It can't fight God or Fate, because fairy tales are very much a product of their times. Though that raises the question of how the magic changes when the times do... Any exceptions to the rules is almost entirely to enhance the aesthetic of the setting, but not to the point of mundane utility. A remote ice palace is quite doable, but ubiquitous refrigeration no so much. Fairy tale magic, as I understand it, is Romanticism made physically manifest. DShomshak, Jhamin and Lord Liaden 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steriaca Posted April 21, 2021 Report Share Posted April 21, 2021 Some more guidelines. Transformation: Transformation attacks, whatever they are, MUST have a way to undo them. Usually the attacks do not heal back, they are permanent until that clause is met. Usual transformations are into animals, curses of ugliness, blindness, the inability to see beauty in the world (The Snow Queen). Note: even beneficial transformations have this clause. Barrier: Used to create instant walls of plants, or stone, or ice. There is always a way through for the pure of heart. Entangles: Can hold people via various means. While the pure of heart doesn't protect the victim from being bound, the brave heart finds it easy to cut through the entangle. Basically a pure heart/brave heart is protection against certain effects. What that means is up to the GM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekkidcarpenter Posted April 21, 2021 Report Share Posted April 21, 2021 3 hours ago, AlgaeNymph said: Spells are flashy one-off sort of things. Fairy tale magic is less of a toolkit and more a set of narrative devices; thus, a generalist spellcaster isn't going to be utilitarian with their repertoire. I always enjoyed Piers Anthony's work, and the Adept series (where each spell must be cast on the fly and can never be repeated) was my first introduction to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted April 21, 2021 Report Share Posted April 21, 2021 Bippity-boppity-boo... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted April 21, 2021 Report Share Posted April 21, 2021 Yeah, fairy tale magic seems to be incredibly powerful, but very limited and often with a cost. For example, you can wish for anything, but the wishes rarely turn out the way you intend. Or you can transform someone into something else, but it requires a twig from a rare plant. And as OM pointed out, often there are patterns: 3's, 7's, etc. Luck plays a huge part as well; you must find something to take advantage of the magic, or become incredibly lucky through the magic. Often there's a sense of justice as well: the most oppressed and downtrodden is the one that's exalted, not the mighty and impressive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opal Posted April 21, 2021 Report Share Posted April 21, 2021 5 hours ago, AlgaeNymph said: Though that raises the question of how the magic changes when the times do. One thing that's struck me over the years is that the way magic is used, described and related to in very old sources - like Greek mythology, for instance - is very different from traditional fairy tales, which are very different from modern fantasy, is even different from post-modern fantasy. And, yes, it makes sense the presentation of magic changes with the times, with how it contrasts to the mundane, with prevailing beliefs, and with the role it plays in the story. In traditional fairy tales, even as they were written down after in the 18th or 19th centuries, there's an impression that they're making sense of a mysterious universe, much like religion and other folk tales. They were for children, they taught moral and even practical lessons, and they presented a consistency that children need, the same story ends the same way each time, good is rewarded, evil punished, etc, as contrasted with reality which was poorly-understood, arbitrary, tragic and cruel. In modern fantasy, OTOH, while the universe still seemed more uncaring than ever, it was better understood, faith in science was on the rise, which made even everyday miracles seem mundane. So the emphasis on magic in fantasy shifted from providing justice in familiar, consistent stories, to providing a sense of wonder when science had made the world seem less wonderous. The fantasy of Dunsany, Lewis, and Tolkien (and in a darker sense that of Poe and Lovecraft) takes wonder associated with magic, and uses it to create a less knowable world, rather than a more just and consistent one. Post-modern fantasy, the fantasy of D&D, video games, movies and TV, and literature on the order of Harry Potter, takes it further, in that it's trying to provide a sense of wonder to audiences jaded by the wonders of technology, so magic is wildly powerful, cleverly and practically employed, so that it can outshine modern marvels. The stories, told, OTOH, are post-modern stories, full of human failings and innately evil (for evil's sake) systems in dire need of revolutionary change driven by the young and/or outcast. I guess it'd be a bit cynical to say that's why classes are so imbalanced in D&D and Hero GMs are reputedly more suspicious of magic VPPs than gadget pools, because magic has to be straight-up OP to seem like it's really magic. AlgaeNymph and Lord Liaden 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DShomshak Posted April 21, 2021 Report Share Posted April 21, 2021 Some guidance and inspiration might be found in the Motif-Index of folklorist Stith Thompson. This was an attempt to list every goddamn story motif from every form of folk literature in the world, systematically arranged in categories such as "Tests of Identity" or "The Wise and Foolish," so they can be compared across cultures. (Most of the material actually comes from Europe, but since Thompson other folklorists have used his schema to index the other cultures.) One very large section is "Magic." Here's the detailed synopsis. D. MAGIC DETAILED SYNOPSIS D0-D699 TRANSFORMATION D10-D99. Transformation of man to different man D10. Transformation to person of different sex D20. Transformation to person of different social class D30. Transformation to person of different race D40. Transformation to likeness of another person D50. Magic changes in man himself D90. Transformation: man to different man - miscellaneous D100-D199. Transformation: man to animal D110-D199. Transformation: man to mammal D110. Transformation: man to wild beast (mammal) D130. Transformation: man to domestic beast (mammal) D150. Transformation: man to bird D170. Transformation: man to fish D180. Transformation: man to insect D190. Transformation: man to reptiles and miscellaneous animals D200-D299. Transformation: man to object D210. Transformation: man to vegetable form D230. Transformation: man to mineral form D250. Transformation: man to manufactured object D270. Transformation: man to object - miscellaneous D300-D399. Transformation: animal to person D310-D349. Transformation: mammal to person D310. Transformation: wild beast (mammal) to person D330. Transformation: domestic beast (mammal) to person D350. Transformation: bird to person D370. Transformation: fish to man D380. Transformation: insect to person D390. Transformation: reptiles and miscellaneous animals to persons. D400-D499. Other forms of transformation D410. Transformation: one animal to another D420. Transformation: animal to object D430. Transformation: object to person D440. Transformation: object to animal D450-D499. Transformation: object to object D450. Transformation: object to another object D470. Transformation: material of object changed D480. Size of object transformed D500-D599. Means of transformation D510. Transformation by breaking tabu D520, Transformation through power of the word D530. Transformation by putting on skin, clothing, etc. D550. Transformation by eating or drinking D560. Transformation by various means D600-D699. Miscellaneous transformation incidents D610. Repeated transformation D620. Periodic transformation D630. Transformation and disenchantment at will D640. Reasons for voluntary transformation D660. Motive for transformation of others D670. Magic flight. D680. Miscellaneous circumstances of transformation D700-D799 Disenchantment D710. Disenchantment by rough treatment D720. Disenchantment by removing (destroying) covering of en chanted person D730. Disenobantment by submission D750. Disenchantment by faithfulness of others D760. Disenchantment by miscellaneous means D780 Attendant circumstances of disenchantment D800-D1699. MAGIC OBJECTS D800-D899. Ownership of magic objects D800. Magic oblect D810-D859. Acauisition of magic obiect D810. Magic object a gift D830. Magic object acquired by trickery D840. Magic object found D850. Magic object otherwise obtained D860. Loss of magic object D880. Recovery of magic obiect D900-D1299. Kinds of magic objects D900. Magic weather phenomena D910. Magic body of water D930. Magic land features D940. Magic forests D950. Magic tree D960. Magic gardens and plants D980. Magic fruits and vegetables D990-D1099. Magic bodily members D990. Magic bodily members-human D1010. Magic bodily members-animal D1030. Magic food D1040. Magic drink D1050. Magic clothes D1070. Magic ornaments D1080. Magic weapons D1110. Magic conveyances D1130. Magic buildings and parts D1150. Magic furniture D1170. Magic utensils and implements D1210. Magic musical instruments D1240. Magic waters and medicines D1250. Miscellaneous magic obiects D1300-D1599. Function of magic objects D1300-D1379. Magic obiects effect changes in person D1300. Magic obiect gives supernatural wisdom D1310. Magic object gives supernatural information D1330. Magic objects works physical change D1350. Magic object changes person's disposition D1360. Magic object effects temporary change in perse D1380. Magic object protects D1390. Magic object rescues person D1400-D1439. Magic object gives power over other persons D1400. Magic object overcomes person D1410. Magic object renders person helpless D1420. Magic object draws person (thing) to it D1430. Magic object pursues or captures D1440. Magic object gives power over animals D1450. Magic object furnishes treasure D1470. Magic object as provider D1500. Magic object controls disease D1520. Magic object affords miraculous transportation D1540. Magic object controls the elements D1550. Magic object miraculously opens and closes D1560. Magic object performs other services for owner D1600-D1699. Characteristics of magic objects D1600-D1649. Automatic maeic obiects D1600. Automatic obiect D1610. Magic speaking objects D1620. Magic automata D1640. Other automatic objects D1650. Other characteristics of magic obiects D1700-D2199. MAGIC POWERS AND MANIFESTATIONS D1710-D1799. Possession and means of employment of magic powers D1710. Possession of magic powers D1720. Acquisition of magic powers D1740. Loss of magic powers D1750. Other characteristics of magic power D1760. Means of producing magic power D1800-D2199 Manifestations of magic power D1800-D1949. Lasting magic qualities D1810. Magic knowledge D1820. Magic sight and hearing D1830. Magic strength D1840. Magic invulnerability D1850. Immortality D1860. Magic beautification D1870. Magic hideousness D1880. Magic rejuvenation D1890. Magic aging D1900. Love induced by magic D1910. Magic memory D1920. Other permanent magic characteristic D1950-D2049. Temporary magic characteristic D1960. Magic sleep D1980. Magic invisibility D2000. Magic forgetfulness D2020. Magic dumbness D2030. Other temporary magic characteristic D2050-D2099. Destructive magic powers D2060. Death or bodily injury by magic D2070. Bewitching D2080. Magic used against property D2090. Other destructive magic powers D2100-D2149. Other manifestations of magic powe D2100. Magic wealth D2120. Magic transportation D2140. Magic control of the elements D2150-D2199. Miscellaneous magical manifestation I found the Motif-Index in the library when I was at university, and spent way too much money copying sections of it. I would not be surprised if someoen had not produced a digital version on the internet, though I haven't looked for it. If not, try your local university library. Dean Shomshak Lord Liaden, L. Marcus and AlgaeNymph 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawsplay Posted April 21, 2021 Report Share Posted April 21, 2021 I think the most central element of fairy tale magic is the duality that it is persistent yet unreal. A curse could last 300 years, then vanish because someone calls someone by their correct name. Maleficent can certainly use combat magic; she hurls fire and turns into a dragon. She can hypnotize and command Aurora. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted April 22, 2021 Report Share Posted April 22, 2021 3 hours ago, DShomshak said: I found the Motif-Index in the library when I was at university, and spent way too much money copying sections of it. I would not be surprised if someoen had not produced a digital version on the internet, though I haven't looked for it. If not, try your local university library. Dean Shomshak They did. It is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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