Which Viper?

[Ninja-Bear]

On 4/21/2021 at 8:38 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

Unfortunately these days most people who think of superheroes associate them with movies, not comics which few have read.  So that's going to inform expectations and what people think is "cool" rather than the near-century of comic books that led to the films.

Perhaps. But the question is how many of those people are actually want to play Superheroes?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

But the question is how many of those people are actually want to play Superheroes?

 

That is the real question: how do you weaponize the interest in Superhero movies into actual game play?

[steriaca]

40 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Perhaps. But the question is how many of those people are actually want to play Superheroes?

This isn't a new problem. It evolved from "how many people who actually read superhero comics actually want to play superheroes?".

[Spence]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

That is the real question: how do you weaponize the interest in Superhero movies into actual game play?

 

59 minutes ago, steriaca said:

This isn't a new problem. It evolved from "how many people who actually read superhero comics actually want to play superheroes?".

 

It doesn't help that player expectations have shifted to the point that many of the  actual superHero mainstays are now considered (read with whiny nasal voice) Railroading or its twin "Loss of Player Agency". 

 

The hero being captured, the choice of letting the villain escape in order to save the innocent bystander, etc.  Presenting hard choices, all the things that make great reading or watching are exactly the things that the new players hate. 

 

They cannot comprehend that a hero cannot pull off a dramatic rescue or escape if no one is captured.  You will never have the escalating excitement and drama of a archenemy if the villain never escapes. 

 

Modern players play TTRPGs like a computer RPG when they have all the cheat codes.  They want all the rewards with none of the risks.

[Steve]

2 minutes ago, Spence said:

 

 

It doesn't help that player expectations have shifted to the point that many of the  actual superHero mainstays are now considered (read with whiny nasal voice) Railroading or its twin "Loss of Player Agency". 

 

The hero being captured, the choice of letting the villain escape in order to save the innocent bystander, etc.  Presenting hard choices, all the things that make great reading or watching are exactly the things that the new players hate. 

 

They cannot comprehend that a hero cannot pull off a dramatic rescue or escape if no one is captured.  You will never have the escalating excitement and drama of a archenemy if the villain never escapes. 

 

Modern players play TTRPGs like a computer RPG when they have all the cheat codes.  They want all the rewards with none of the risks.

 

I sense some bitterness in these comments. Are they from personal experience?

[Opal]

4 minutes ago, Spence said:

Modern players play TTRPGs like a computer RPG when they have all the cheat codes.  They want all the rewards with none of the risks.

Kids  these days, amirite?

 

Seriously, though, I actually was running games for kids these days, a while back, oh, OK, rather a while back, like 2010-14, I guess.  And, no it wasn't Hero, it was just the D&D du jour, but I did not find younger/newer/more-casual players freaking out about capture scenarios or railroading.  

 

...old-school D&Ders, OTOH, wouldn't ever accept the capture scenario, because it meant loss of magic items....

 

(by the same token, in Champions! capture scenarios, and the obligatory death traps, were not hated/feared near so much)

 

 

[Tjack]

3 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Tjack:

 

I wanted to agree with you with most of your sentiments, but I _do_ think they shoukd pull up their pants.  I get really,tired of walkinf through the grocery store, rqndomly encountering the pubic foilage of someone who should be able to dress all by himself.   

 

 

And I know Hydra is the popular,go,to (and thanks to all the googling that came out of a Captain America thread, I now sort,of know who they are.   But i always thought Viper was a rip,off,of Cobra: snake motif, military structure, and absolutely,no valid reason to exist foe the first ten years or so....

 

Very Cobra.

 

 

     I agree with you that the snake motif was very Cobra-esque, but Hydra itself was created by Marvel for the comic Nick Fury: Agent of SHIELD that was as part of the spy craze of the ‘60’s due to the Bond films.

     I also hate young whippersnappers for all the above mentioned reasons.👍

[Ninja-Bear]

Well I think 4e is a good balance of “realistic” and comic book-y.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

 

I like the idea of long snakes emblazoned on the arms ending at the hands.   Obviously done by someone with more time and ability.

 

I like this idea, maybe some kind of rank insignia: bigger the snake the more powerful in the organization.

Like people have said, probably a standard VIPER uniform for every single nest makes no sense, particularly with 4th edition's franchise concept.  So what is used in one area, not so much in the next.

[Spence]

1 hour ago, Steve said:

 

I sense some bitterness in these comments. Are they from personal experience?

 

Not bitterness as much as complete disgust.  And not just as a GM, but as a player too. 

 

I used to run/play a lot at FLGSs, it was fun to get new players into the hobby.  Was being the operative word.

 

I was in a game where the GM was running a myrder mystery.  The players were to be secretly hired to investigate disappearances and murders within the city.  Since the Watch was sure that they had been compromised, it was all secret.

The GM told us the types of characters that were needed and a few classes and races that he was not allowing.  Make a general character and we would finish out at the beginning of session 1.  Three of us showed up with a couple characters each, but the two twenty somethings arrived with the precise class/races that the GM asked not to have. And the whiney crying began. The GM was quickly getting ready just leave.

I jumped in, "hey, you agreed to this last week.  If you don't like it feel free to find another game".  If it was me I'd have booted them, but GM helped them make suitable PCs.  The long and short of it was the twits used "railroading" and sentences with some form of "player agency" two or three times a session completely ruining the game.  I left on session 3.  The rest of the gamers left on session 4 and the GM never started 5.

 

I had multiple bad experiences over the years and now only run for humans.  I haven't run a con game for years. I have no problems asking a player to leave my table or just ending the game these days. 

 

I am too old to put up with scumbaggery.

 

 

51 minutes ago, Opal said:

Kids  these days, amirite?

 

Seriously, though, I actually was running games for kids these days, a while back, oh, OK, rather a while back, like 2010-14, I guess.  And, no it wasn't Hero, it was just the D&D du jour, but I did not find younger/newer/more-casual players freaking out about capture scenarios or railroading.  

 

...old-school D&Ders, OTOH, wouldn't ever accept the capture scenario, because it meant loss of magic items....

 

(by the same token, in Champions! capture scenarios, and the obligatory death traps, were not hated/feared near so much)

 

 

 

Wow, my experience is completely the other way. 

 

The Old school D&Ders and other gamers (1980 to 1995ish) were always having characters captured and such.

 

It wasn't until the new players hit in the very late 1990s and through the 2000s that the whine fest hit its stride. 

 

Personally the majority of games I run are mysteries and will have secrets and recurring villainy. 

 

With the younger crowd I have actually seen players reading a copy of the adventure they are in in session.  And when th GM tells them they can't do that, well the whiny gits begin wailing.

 

I completely understand why most of the great GMs only run private games.

[Christopher R Taylor]

It only takes a couple jerks to ruin it for everyone.  Last game I ran at the game store, two guys almost came to blows, just for some reason one guy kept busting another guy, like it was some alpha power play but he was this weasely guy.  I don't get it.  Just come and play and have fun, why all this other crap?  Makes things miserable for the GM.

[Opal]

Just now, Spence said:

I used to run/play a lot at FLGSs, it was fun to get new players into the hobby.  Was being the operative word.

I was in a game where the GM was running a myrder mystery. 

Wow, my experience is completely the other way. 

Personally the majority of games I run are mysteries and will have secrets and recurring villainy. 

 

With the younger crowd I have actually seen players reading a copy of the adventure they are in in session.  And when th GM tells them they can't do that, well the whiny gits begin wailing.

Mysteries are one of the harder things to pull off, certainly.  

 

I had caught the odd player reading a module back the olden days, too, but, back then, they at least tried to hide it. 

[IndianaJoe3]

I like 4A/5, with a nod to mall-ninja-style tactical accessories.

[Ninja-Bear]

16 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

No, just that designers these days have to work with a different set of expectations than those of the past, and that its a pity modern fans are missing out on so much history and wonderful stuff from the past.  I don't judge in character design, I just try to listen to what people want and expect so that I can make what people not only appreciate and expect, but will be pleased by.  With that as a basis, there's room to adjust and introduce younger people to something new (actually old) they are unfamiliar with, as long as its not too much against the aesthetic they expect.

Have you seen Storm’s work in Necessary Evil? The art work is good and still comic book-y (I think). And that game got rave reviews. Artwork is nice but it isn’t everything.

Edited April 24, 2021 by Ninja-Bear
Holy double posts Batman!

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah if Storn Cook wanted to donate art to the Champions Begins project I'd be delighted.

 

[BoloOfEarth]

I prefer the 4th A & B (I'd use A for team leaders and B for the grunt troops), though I have added Nest-specific touches.  (For instance, in one campaign the local Nest leader had cold powers, and his agents had fur accents and boots with metal spikes to help them run on ice.)  The 5E look is too generic to me.  And yeah, while I like much of the 1st and 3rd edition VIPER looks, the Spaceballs helmet never looked good to me. 

[Tjack]

16 hours ago, Spence said:

 

Not bitterness as much as complete disgust.  And not just as a GM, but as a player too. 

 

I used to run/play a lot at FLGSs, it was fun to get new players into the hobby.  Was being the operative word.

 

I was in a game where the GM was running a myrder mystery.  The players were to be secretly hired to investigate disappearances and murders within the city.  Since the Watch was sure that they had been compromised, it was all secret.

The GM told us the types of characters that were needed and a few classes and races that he was not allowing.  Make a general character and we would finish out at the beginning of session 1.  Three of us showed up with a couple characters each, but the two twenty somethings arrived with the precise class/races that the GM asked not to have. And the whiney crying began. The GM was quickly getting ready just leave.

I jumped in, "hey, you agreed to this last week.  If you don't like it feel free to find another game".  If it was me I'd have booted them, but GM helped them make suitable PCs.  The long and short of it was the twits used "railroading" and sentences with some form of "player agency" two or three times a session completely ruining the game.  I left on session 3.  The rest of the gamers left on session 4 and the GM never started 5.

 

I had multiple bad experiences over the years and now only run for humans.  I haven't run a con game for years. I have no problems asking a player to leave my table or just ending the game these days. 

 

I am too old to put up with scumbaggery.

 

 

 

Wow, my experience is completely the other way. 

 

The Old school D&Ders and other gamers (1980 to 1995ish) were always having characters captured and such.

 

It wasn't until the new players hit in the very late 1990s and through the 2000s that the whine fest hit its stride. 

 

Personally the majority of games I run are mysteries and will have secrets and recurring villainy. 

 

With the younger crowd I have actually seen players reading a copy of the adventure they are in in session.  And when th GM tells them they can't do that, well the whiny gits begin wailing.

 

I completely understand why most of the great GMs only run private games.

      Entitled whining bastids are everywhere. The “I want what I want, and if I complain loud enough I’ll get it“  “I want to see your manager” types must be smacked down whenever they crawl out from under their rocks.

      It’s not just one generation or another.  The old ones teach their young how to be obnoxious and letting them get away with it doesn’t placate them, it just makes them stronger.

[Spence]

53 minutes ago, Tjack said:

      Entitled whining bastids are everywhere. The “I want what I want, and if I complain loud enough I’ll get it“  “I want to see your manager” types must be smacked down whenever they crawl out from under their rocks.

      It’s not just one generation or another.  The old ones teach their young how to be obnoxious and letting them get away with it doesn’t placate them, it just makes them stronger.

 

You are pretty much correct.

I guess the "when" corresponds to when you noticed it.  For me my gaming was pretty much mostly with people in the military or associated with the military until I retired in 04. 

 

Not that the military doesn't have its own a$$hats, but their a$$hattery tends to be different and not the "entitled" card. 

[Spence]

16 hours ago, Opal said:

Mysteries are one of the harder things to pull off, certainly.  

 

I had caught the odd player reading a module back the olden days, too, but, back then, they at least tried to hide it. 

 

 

That is something I've never understood, reading the adventure you will be a PC in.  I still have adventures on me shelf I have never read because I live in hope of getting to play in them. 

To me the hole point of an adventure is not knowing what comes next.  Why spoil it?

 

I also had a fairly long vent on the current gaming cultures finger pointing but realized we are hijacking this thread. 

 

So I'll stop now

 

 

[armadillo]

12 minutes ago, Spence said:

 

 

That is something I've never understood, reading the adventure you will be a PC in.  I still have adventures on me shelf I have never read because I live in hope of getting to play in them. 

To me the hole point of an adventure is not knowing what comes next.  Why spoil it?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, I agree. When I sense (or plainly see!) that the players have read the module, I always take a huge turn, making an NPC suddenly part of the main plot even though it's not listed anywhere in the module, I add a scene, change the final boss. I'm sure we've all done something like this while GMing. Then the culprit blurts out, "Zenomax isn't in this module, is he?!?!" and the jig is up.

[pawsplay]

I sometimes hear opinions that seem to treat reading a module as a cardinal sin. That's a huge assumption, though, that someone intends cheating. A lot of people read a lot of modules because they mostly GM. If you want a module to be fresh, especially one published decades ago, you should be tweaking elements of it.

[steriaca]

Moduals are guides to the adventure, not a straitjacket.

[Spence]

46 minutes ago, steriaca said:

Moduals are guides to the adventure, not a straitjacket.

Yep, I remember watching a munchkin arguing with his GM because the GM hadn't given them the treasure that was clearly marked in the adventure as being in that room.  He even showed everyone that would look the page on his copy.  Of course the entire encounter in that location had been skipped.....

 

More and more reasons for people to not GM.

[Sketchpad]

13 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Yeah if Storn Cook wanted to donate art to the Champions Begins project I'd be delighted.

 

You could buy the Image Portfolio Platinum products off DriveThruRPG and use his art. This is one of many: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/91000/Image-Portfolio-Platinum-Free-Edition-Storn-Cook

[Steve]

17 hours ago, Sketchpad said:

 

You could buy the Image Portfolio Platinum products off DriveThruRPG and use his art. This is one of many: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/91000/Image-Portfolio-Platinum-Free-Edition-Storn-Cook

I bought a bundle of them when it was on sale a while back. The art is good stuff.