What are Eurostar's strategy, logistics, operations, and tactics?

[Lord Liaden]

I think you're all being too optimistic about "united Europe" already being accomplished. Look at the last few years. Not just Brexit, but the rise of right-wing nationalist parties across the continent; conflicting uncoordinated responses to the Middle Eastern refugee crisis; waffling over Russia's annexation of Crimea; rebellion by nations in debt like Greece to austerity demands from international banks in exchange for loans. Denmark just pulled out of Europe's treaty for accommodating refugees, which it was the first signatory to decades ago. The European Union has been unable to get its collective act together on a range of fundamental issues, highlighting that a lot of pan-European idealism is still wishful thinking.

[archer]

1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

I think you're all being too optimistic about "united Europe" already being accomplished. Look at the last few years. Not just Brexit, but the rise of right-wing nationalist parties across the continent; conflicting uncoordinated responses to the Middle Eastern refugee crisis; waffling over Russia's annexation of Crimea; rebellion by nations in debt like Greece to austerity demands from international banks in exchange for loans. Denmark just pulled out of Europe's treaty for accommodating refugees, which it was the first signatory to decades ago. The European Union has been unable to get its collective act together on a range of fundamental issues, highlighting that a lot of pan-European idealism is still wishful thinking.

 

Greece, Italy, and Spain have each flirted with being so insolvent that they'd crash the entire EU economic system. Only repeated massive bailouts have avoided that.

 

There's effectively a northern EU which is financially stable for the most part and a southern EU which isn't at all.

[AlgaeNymph]

On 4/22/2021 at 7:24 PM, drunkonduty said:

Umm... the following touches heavily on real world politics, so, um, let me know if you want it removed.

You asking me?  By all means, get political!  Kinda the whole point of Eurostar.

 

13 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

You need to stop thinking of them, especially Fiacho, as criminals trying to score as much personal profit as they can. Fiacho is a fanatic and the whole crew are psychopaths.

I suppose they are more about that than a united Europe.  I recall Confucius saying to judge a person's character by their associates.  Istvatha V'han's closest are principled patriots and rehabilitated rebels.  Dr. Destroyer has brainwashed mercenaries who aren't sadistic so much as selfish.  With Eurostar they're all just plain jerks.

 

Which gets me thinking about an idea I had: a sadistic choice that's also a forced show of character.  Some examples: 

• Eurostar threatens to destroy a famous bridge in London during rush hour if they don't get a billion of whatever currency.  When a politician boldly proclaims, from safety, that "we don't negotiate with terrorists," possibly cribbing from Churchill or Henry V for good measure, Eurostar tells them they can either choose which bridge gets destroyed or else they'll wreck both.  Sure, the powers that be can redirect traffic and post guards, but for how long?  Eurostar didn't give a date.  And when people forget about it they strike.
• If their demands are not met, Eurostar will attack a prominent Muslim community center in Europe on a Friday.  They leave this to linger so as to wear down resources, build up resentment among bigots for Muslims getting "special treatment," and get into position to attack.  Eurostar then strikes a place the could have been defended by a wealthy enough country but wasn't.  "It's Eurostar's fault" will ring hollow to a community that knows they were left to die.  The possibility of gaining right-wing sympathizers is just frosting.
• An outspoken critic of Eurostar is ordered to give a thorough and humiliating public apology -- or else somebody is thoroughly tortured, and their ordeal publicly broadcast.  It could be a loved one, it could be a random street person; whatever Eurostar thinks will force their critic into the most life-destroying decision.  Failure to comply means Eurostar makes good on their word, with attempts to track down the broadcast only leading to a gruesomely mutilated body and a message to the effect of "you didn't care about me!"  The real victim will be sold off to traffickers.

If Eurostar gets their demands met then that's just fine.  But if not then they force an enemy to be an active participant in their evil.

[pawsplay]

One way they could further their goals while generating operational funds is to buy up something like commodities or stocks, then smashing the competition.

[Lord Liaden]

Nope, still not getting it. Eurostar does not demand a billion dollars or they blow up a bridge with everyone on it. Eurostar blows up the bridge. Then claims responsibility. The critic of Eurostar does not get to apologize or else a loved one is tortured on public broadcast. The loved one is tortured.

 

Did Al Qaeda demand money before flying a jumbo jet into the World Trade Center? Terrorists attack and kill without warning, that's what makes them so terrifying. They don't extort, they make graphic statements. Since this is the Champions forum, perhaps someone has been watching the recent The Falcon and the Winter Soldier streaming series. That's how terrorists operate.

 

The way this plays out in dramatic fiction like our RPGs is that the heroes learn of a planned attack by some means -- an informant, electronic eavesdropping, piecing together the pattern of the terrorists' previous activities -- and then intervene before the attack takes place, usually at the last moment.

[steriaca]

54 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

Nope, still not getting it. Eurostar does not demand a billion dollars or they blow up a bridge with everyone on it. Eurostar blows up the bridge. Then claims responsibility. The critic of Eurostar does not get to apologize or else a loved one is tortured on public broadcast. The loved one is tortured.

 

Did Al Qaeda demand money before flying a jumbo jet into the World Trade Center? Terrorists attack and kill without warning, that's what makes them so terrifying. They don't extort, they make graphic statements. Since this is the Champions forum, perhaps someone has been watching the recent The Falcon and the Winter Soldier streaming series. That's how terrorists operate.

 

The way this plays out in dramatic fiction like our RPGs is that the heroes learn of a planned attack by some means -- an informant, electronic eavesdropping, piecing together the pattern of the terrorists' previous activities -- and then intervene before the attack takes place, usually at the last moment.

Well, it might not be "we don't get it" more than "we don't want to get it". If we ran them like a real terrorist organization as opposed to a supervillain group trying for world conquest starting with Europe we can get really dark really fast. Dark and red and goopy and gorey. Too much of this can really bring down a GM. 

 

Which is why villains like Foxbat exist. For a little change of pace and a darkness washer.

 

Of course, if Eurostar is too dark, simply do not use them.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

An old campaign I was in had Eurostar as the main antagonists. They were exceedingly nasty and did everything possible to hurt our heroes, including killing friends/NPCs. By the time our final battle with them came, the kid gloves were off.

[AlgaeNymph]

19 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Nope, still not getting it. Eurostar does not demand a billion dollars or they blow up a bridge with everyone on it. Eurostar blows up the bridge. Then claims responsibility. The critic of Eurostar does not get to apologize or else a loved one is tortured on public broadcast. The loved one is tortured.

O...kay?

 

While Eurostar can quite easily do things the boring-but-practical way, wouldn't an alleged choice get more horror out of their terrorism?  By giving the targeted politician a lose-lose option they probably won cede to anyway, Eurostar does what it was going to do anyway and makes the politician look bad, delegitimizing them.  Or maybe I put too much thought into sadism?

 

Also...are you okay?  You've seemed peculiarly insistent throughout this thread, and I think it hit a nerve.  Sorry if I upset you.  Perhaps we could get one of the devs to clear up any confusion?

[Lord Liaden]

Not upset at all, I apologize if I gave that impression. It's just that your OP asked for what Eurostar does, how they go about operating. The way they're officially defined, they're terrorists. That's one of the things that sets them apart from other supervillains, that makes them unique in this setting, why one might use them in lieu of the Ultimates or the Crimelords. My "insistence" was just trying to keep to what you appeared to ask for, that folks seemed to keep missing. Of course you can modify Eurostar in any way that would be more satisfying for the games you want. But then this becomes a thread about modifying Eurostar. If that's what you prefer, that's fine.

[steriaca]

3 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Not upset at all, I apologize if I gave that impression. It's just that your OP asked for what Eurostar does, how they go about operating. The way they're officially defined, they're terrorists. That's one of the things that sets them apart from other supervillains, that makes them unique in this setting, why one might use them in lieu of the Ultimates or the Crimelords. My "insistence" was just trying to keep to what you appeared to ask for, that folks seemed to keep missing. Of course you can modify Eurostar in any way that would be more satisfying for the games you want. But then this becomes a thread about modifying Eurostar. If that's what you prefer, that's fine.

True. It falls under "It's Your Game". However you vew Eurostar becomes how they are In Your Game. But officially they would act exactly like you say they will Lord Liaden. They don't have an agent arm. They don't give warnings. They don't accept your surrender. They will accept your dead body.

[Opal]

9 hours ago, AlgaeNymph said:

 wouldn't an alleged choice get more horror out of their terrorism? 

It's not something terrorists do a whole lot, is It?

 

OT1H, it is a moral/ethical fallacy, the terrorist, not the innocent given the supposed 'choice', is solely responsible for his actions.  OTOH, it requires back-and-forth, credible, communications that would be problematic to authenticate and provide multiple opportunities to apprehend the terrorist or prevent the attack.

 

It does make for melodrama when the good-guy is the focus of the story, though, which is why we see it so often in fiction.  And with Eurostar such high power villains, they could be overconfident to take the extra risks.  Especially if they want a chance to fight the heros.

[DShomshak]

Well, Conquerors, Killers and Crooks gave three plot seeds for 5e Eurostar. To paraphrase:

 

1. Buy a cloned army from Teleios with which to attempt an outright conquest of a smaller European country. (Or at least one with weak military resources.) Their attempt to conquer Poland failed; this time, maybe Romania.

 

2. Set up an enormous counterfeiting operation and use the funny money to buy up all the assets they can. Then leak the truth to destabilize European economies.

 

3. Steal 8 Russian nukes and threaten to destroy a city a month unless governments surrender to them.

 

One of the plot seeds for Fiacho has him stealing tech to create a bioweapon, because he thinks a plague would make it easier to conquer Europe.

 

Dean Shomshak

 

 

[DShomshak]

There's been some evolution in terrorism. IIRC, the PLO was pretty big on taking hostages before making demands,. That's an instance of putting pressure on authorities in hopes that said authorities will be blamed for the resulting deaths if the demands are not met. (As Opal says, the whole "See what you made me do" thing is fallacious, but people aren't always rational about this.) Al Qaeda, OTOH, seems more into just causing destruction and death for its own sake: They'll stop (presumably) when their demands are met, but I haven't heard of specific operations being tied to specific demands.

 

Considering Eurostar's origins, though, IRA and Red Brigade might be a better "style guide," with super-powers letting Eurostar magnify the atrocities to comioc-book scale. But I don't know so much about their deeds. And I think Red Brigade is dead.

 

Dean Shomshak

[archer]

2 hours ago, Opal said:

It's not something terrorists do a whole lot, is It?

 

OT1H, it is a moral/ethical fallacy, the terrorist, not the innocent given the supposed 'choice', is solely responsible for his actions.  OTOH, it requires back-and-forth, credible, communications that would be problematic to authenticate and provide multiple opportunities to apprehend the terrorist or prevent the attack.

 

It does make for melodrama when the good-guy is the focus of the story, though, which is why we see it so often in fiction.  And with Eurostar such high power villains, they could be overconfident to take the extra risks.  Especially if they want a chance to fight the heros.

 

You hit the nail on the head. 

 

Most terrorist groups operate in unfriendly territory. They have to commit the act then scatter unless they're planning on being martyrs to the cause. Otherwise massive amounts of authority figures pile into the area whether FBI, Interpol, UNTIL, local police, intelligence services, military, or some combination thereof.

 

There's a few places like Palestine or Northern Ireland where terrorists could commit acts then at least be on a neutral playing field of finding civilians and people in authority who'd look the other way or give them shelter. In those places, terrorists could try something convoluted or cute.

 

Eurostar has the power to not care about the massive number of officials who could flood into the area chasing after them. Any force large enough to be a serious threat to them would also be a serious threat to flatten the city or at least do more in collateral damage than Eurostar did themselves.

[Terminax]

I think I feel the same as the OP, in wanting better guidance with Eurostar because they feel awfully clunky as is. I shared Eurostar's backstory with several European friends (Dutch, French, German, Polish and Spanish) and they were all pretty much of the opinion "These must be the creation of an American, with no understanding at all about Europe except to make insulting stereotypes and give them the thinnest of backgrounds." so I couldn't get them to give me any input on how to flesh them out better.

 

At my table, Eurostar is usually setup more of a dark mirror supervillain team to the player's superheroes. They have all the power that any superhero group could want, but instead of doing good with it they act as a destructive force. Europe is portrayed as a mostly already ordered place with Eurostar as a significant threat on the continent, actually a step below VIPER and counterparts to real world situations like Brexit, the Ukrainian/Russian tensions and the (refugee/"worker") migration from Africa, the Middle East and Asia. (I prefer to fictionalize real-world conflicts a bit, in order to give space to my players to not feel they are getting political discussion pressed on them.) Anyhow, Eurostar is less grim dark terror and more professional thuggery. Interfere in their plans, and they WILL come after you. I have mostly adopted the 6E version of the group, with the exception that I had the 4E version White Flame and Whip killed rather than Bora and the Whip by VIPER and replaced by Scorpia and Feurmacher. I've also expanded the team with three more members: Výrobca - a dieselpunk engineer/magical smith who commands a force of magical constructs/vehicles from Slovakia, Cadavru - a cold war era "zombie" super soldier from Romania, the Extremist (Szélsőséges in Hungarian, and no I don't make anyone try to say it!) - a superboy clone from Hungary who survived on the mean streets of Budapest as a gang member until his powers grew in his later teenage years and he suddenly went on a rampage killing friends, rivals, criminals and law enforcement alike before Fiacho got his (and Mentalla's mind control) claws into him. Eurostar also has a small agent corps, split between infiltrators and a cadre of terrorists/soldiers - somewhat increased in capability and numbers since the end of the Eurostar-VIPER war. In their last use in a campaign, they massacred a governmental team of Turkish supers while conducting attacks across the country before retreating back into Europe causing the Turkish government to collapse and be replaced by an anti-EU military junta and a hardening of the borders. Turkey's sole surviving super, a poor man's Iron Man tried to go after Eurostar himself but got torn in two by the Extremist while flying illegally through Europe.

[Lord Liaden]

1 hour ago, Terminax said:

I think I feel the same as the OP, in wanting better guidance with Eurostar because they feel awfully clunky as is. I shared Eurostar's backstory with several European friends (Dutch, French, German, Polish and Spanish) and they were all pretty much of the opinion "These must be the creation of an American, with no understanding at all about Europe except to make insulting stereotypes and give them the thinnest of backgrounds." so I couldn't get them to give me any input on how to flesh them out better.

 

I suspect there may be a measure of defensiveness and denial to their protests. I remember the Red Brigades in Italy. I remember ETA in Spain and France. I remember ethnic cleansing in the Balkans. That's not even bringing up the examples in Germany and Ireland that everyone thinks of. Anyone who believes that violent extremism can't return to Europe hasn't been paying attention to what's happening to global societies.

 

One protest that has some clear validity, though, is an American perspective. Superheroes are an American cultural invention with no comparable tradition in Europe. Your friends may not consider that with superpowers, a small group of fringe extremists like Eurostar can gain the power to cause harm out of all proportion to their numbers.

 

To flesh out Eurostar I would start with the personalities and motivations of the individual members, particularly Fiacho. Then I'd look at the campaigns of real-world terrorists such as those mentioned on this thread.

[AlgaeNymph]

4 hours ago, Terminax said:

I shared Eurostar's backstory with several European friends (Dutch, French, German, Polish and Spanish) and they were all pretty much of the opinion "These must be the creation of an American, with no understanding at all about Europe except to make insulting stereotypes and give them the thinnest of backgrounds." so I couldn't get them to give me any input on how to flesh them out better.

Hm?  What stereotypes?  If they mean violent extremism then how is that particularly European?

 

3 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

To flesh out Eurostar I would start with the personalities and motivations of the individual members, particularly Fiacho.

Fiacho seemed to be vaguely utopian before he went evil.  Scorpia was with the IRA, but only seemed to care about hurting people.  Ultrasonique sees "Them" as out to get him but nothing more specific than that.  None of the others seem especially political, or else they would've been acting for a cause on their own already.

 

Fiacho's main goal is a united, and ideally preeminent, Europe, so he'll likely be against nationalist movements.  And if I may go on a tangent, this raises an interesting question as to why Istvatha V'han, who's all about preserving cultural identities, would be secretly backing him (Book of the Empress, p.184).  Or how, given that Eurostar seems to be just a small group of jerks.

[Tech]

Fiacho's goal is, as AlgaeN said, a united and ideally preeminent Europe. He is not out to destroy Europe. I disagree with the majority of the posts about their goals of blowing up bridges, torture, etc. Their main attacks would be against the government, to tear it apart and reassemble as Fiacho sees it. Actively attacking areas of the public would turn the public against him, which would strengthen the resolve against Eurostar. The idea of them getting nukes is ridiculous as it goes against his ideology. I'm sure I'll get rebuttals but that's how I see them operating.

[steriaca]

13 minutes ago, Tech said:

Fiacho's goal is, as AlgaeN said, a united and ideally preeminent Europe. He is not out to destroy Europe. I disagree with the majority of the posts about their goals of blowing up bridges, torture, etc. Their main attacks would be against the government, to tear it apart and reassemble as Fiacho sees it. Actively attacking areas of the public would turn the public against him, which would strengthen the resolve against Eurostar. The idea of them getting nukes is ridiculous as it goes against his ideology. I'm sure I'll get rebuttals but I stand on how I see them.

Ok. How can we combine both views of them? Is being a proponent of a united Europe incompatible with being a terrorist? Not really. See, Fiacho is like any other would be world conquer in the Champions Universe. To him, the ends justify the means. In fact, there is no telling if he would stop at a united Europe under his control once he gets that.

 

You are right on one thing, he would limit his attacks to governments. And to international business doing business in Europe which he sees as against his agenda. Civilians of those companies are fair game in his plans.

 

And how many superheros are secretly billionaires with a big global company at their disposal?

[Terminax]

Let's start with the easy ones. Bora is the exact stereotype of a demanding, extremely vain Italian blonde, Le Sone / Ultrasonique is French paranoia personified, Durak is a big dumb angry Slav and Scorpia is the murderous red hair, pale beauty Irish terrorist stereotype. We've all seen these stereotypes in popular culture and media. Digging deeper, Fiacho is seen as a joke character, no matter how "serious" you present him because of his schtick of trying to shove Esperanto down people's throats. Esperanto, being a made up language that has gone precisely nowhere since it's introduction except diehard nerds keeping it "alive" much in the same way diehard Star Trek nerds keep the phony Klingon language alive. I'm not going to try and relay precisely why Pantera was found to be insulting but it's basically comes down to a sexual innuendo joke. Now that one might be a stretch, but I'll accept it.

 

As for them finding offense, it boils down to the same kind of offense I feel when Canadians get stereotyped for talking slowly, say "yeah buddy" allot and have flappy heads as per South Park. It's funny, I guess in a low-hanging fruit sort of way, and kept in short bursts but if it keeps up especially if you're trying to present something in a more serious tone it quickly gets annoying and eventually insulting. The idea that Europeans don't have superhero comics/culture is false from the get go. It's not as rabid or developed as it is the USA but it certainly exists, and all the people I spoke with are familiar with Marvel/DC/Image superhero comics - far more than we are of theirs, because American media content believe it or not, is shown there. Shocking! I know! (Light sarcasm :D)

 

Beyond that, the notion they're terrorists is pretty thin. Fiacho wants to lead a United Europe. Okay, fine. That's it to his motivation. No reasons why Europe would be better under him, no policies explained or detailed. Bow before Fiacho coz that's all that's there. Pretty much everyone else in the group is there as muscle, except Mentalla who's there because of the protection Eurostar's muscle provides. Most terrorist groups are divided between ethnic or economic, or some combination of both. Us vs them. They have a cause that they use to appeal to people who they think, think like them and hope they'll join up while at the same time, dividing and demoralizing the opposition in order to achieve their goals. Thing is, most groups at least have an agenda a bit broader than just "Hey, Fiacho's our leader now. Be praised!" That's the problem with Eurostar. They're really a group of thugs led by a smarter than the rest thug. Their goal is so broad that it's impossible to achieve and what little guidance that is given, these guys are subtle as a rock. At the end of the day, they're more destructive pests than anything that'd drive people to wanting their rule or even be willing to work with them.

[Opal]

IDK, some of those sound thin as ethnic stereotypes.  Vain & demanding is certainly a hurtful stereotype - but of attractive women (and if you're an unattractive woman, the stereotyping gets a lot more hurtful), not exclusive to women of a given nationality.  Likewise, big, dumb & angry is a stereotype of men, particularly lower-class/uneducated men, across many nationalities, surely.   They're sexist stereotypes.  But, then, the thing that stood out for me about Eurostar, and I think it was Terror Inc or other characters in the same book, was that female villains were given high COM, even Pantera with her mouth full of sharp predators' teeth, while the males often had single-digit COM and/or facial scars and the like - I think Fiacho and Durrak were both hideously scarred.  That was a pretty blatant application of the male gaze, and though I didn't have that specific shorthand for it, it still really stood out to me at the time.  

 

 

[steriaca]

I kinda agree with Terminax with the definition of Eurostar as a terrorist group being extremely loose. It makes more sense to think of Fiacho as being a world conquer like Doctor Destroyer and the like, but with smaller resources and a "start in your backyard first" mentality. He doesn't actually want true European unity. He wants European unity UNDER HIS RULE. He believes he can lead and rule way much better then descendants to inbred kings and queens. The "terror" part is just there to tell the masses to remove the kings or face the consequences.

 

He fails mostly because he takes too much stock in his crew. And he doesn't actually have the resources of Doctor Destroyer or Mechanon. Overconfidence and the feelings of disgust for the ruling parties of Europe prevent his plans from coming to a head.

[Lord Liaden]

Very interesting analysis, Terminax. I have to wonder, though, how much of your friends' response may be due to the way you presented Eurostar to them, since your framing sounds rather biased to me, no disrespect intended. I tend to concur with Opal that much of your stereotyping sounds rather thin. First off, Bora was already dead in the continuity Fifth Edition introduced. Nowhere is it said that Fiacho wants to "shove Esperanto down people's throats." He took his name from it as a symbol, and the rest of the team uses it for code words precisely because most people don't understand it. There's nothing from Ultrasonique's background implying that his paranoia has anything to do with being French. Pantera is kind of a catgirl, which carries plenty of stereotyping, but her description doesn't even mention sexuality among her passions. Durak and Scorpia, I'll grant you can fit the stereotypes you mention if you're looking for them. Durak is my least favorite member of the team, both due to lack of characterization and because his code name as most commonly used in Russian translates as, "fool." I don't think that name was chosen by his creator other than as a Russian word that sounds tough.

 

I'm aware that Europeans have comics, and their own heroes and even superheroes, but as I've heard from Europeans including posters to these forums, superheroes aren't as culturally ingrained as in the States. They have much other domestic folklore and mythology to draw from and make fiction about, including comics.

 

Tech, I concur that Eurostar's targets will be primarily governmental, but also symbolic, such as national monuments, as well as supports for the establishment such as banks (headquarters, not branches). However, there is some strategic value in destroying infrastructure and killing large numbers of innocent civilians, which last is quite common for modern terrorism. Terrorists who view a particular society as an enemy want to shatter that society's faith in the ability of their system and institutions to protect them, to keep them safe. In theory that makes it more likely said society will tear itself apart. In the case of Fiacho I would suspect he also assumes that lack of faith will also make the peoples of Europe more pliant to being molded to his desires.

 

I do believe the characterization of Eurostar as thugs is fair, though. Most of them want to hurt people, first and foremost, but also want wealth, power, and status for themselves, which they expect Eurostar's campaign will ultimately give them. Fiacho uses those desires to steer his team where he wants them to go. I remember in the description of Professor Muerte's motivations in Classic Enemies, his conclusion that history's most successful conquerors were the ones who were most feared. Then there's this rather telling passage from Champions Villains Volume Two p. 98: "Fiacho’s name — an Esperanto word meaning “very bad” — encapsulates his background and personality perfectly. It’s a word from a created language intended to unify mankind, twisted to other purposes — just like Nicole, once an ardent pan-European patriot, has become twisted by rage into a vicious conqueror. And the meaning of the word is important, too; it reflects Fiacho’s attitude about both himself and the people of the world. The fanaticism he once focused on unifying Europe through politics has been transformed into an obsession with conquering Europe and forcing it to unify under his rule — an obsession so strong it literally drove him to “improve” himself through radical surgery and bio-engineering."

 

From that perspective, actually persuading people to agree with his conclusions is irrelevant if he can force them to comply in practice. So, I would say it's fair to call Fiacho a "bow before me" would-be conqueror, who uses his political philosophy as a rationale for his true desires, which he probably doesn't recognize in himself. The above description, and CV2's subsequent assertion on p. 99, "Where once he was gentle and peaceful, Fiacho is now cruel, brutal, and ruthless" also suggests that Danar Nicole wasn't completely mentally stable in the first place. Although not stated anywhere in published text, I'd call it fair to conclude for your own game use of Fiacho that his extensive "superfying" body alterations also affected his mind, driving him to even further extremes.

[pawsplay]

What about Fiacho as an amalgam of Helmut Zeo and Major Disaster? The idea of a privileged smart guy with an axe to grind, hooking up to commit crimes and to make cheap political points.

[Terminax]

I told you exactly what material I gave them - the 4E Classic Enemies entry on Eurostar and 6E Villains Volume 2: Villain Teams entry on Eurostar. I let them go over the canon presentations as written and simplify solicited ideas of how they could be used with actual European viewpoint. Nothing more, nothing less. I've simply relayed their remarks back. And, just in case it isn't obvious my interaction was with each of them individually and there was no group discussion between us. In your first reply you've flat out said they must be defensive and/or don't understand things because they don't have a superhero tradition. I called you out on that already. So let's not keep attacking people you don't know, much less interact with. Stick to discussing the topic.

 

My own use of Eurostar, clearly shows I've tried to use them pretty straight out of the books with a few changes from how they've worked out in canon to fit my needs, but I've explained those changes and why and they're not particularly super different. I do find it difficult to label them as pure terrorists because... well honestly, they've got no particular ideology other than Fiacho's desire to rule Europe and make it the pre-emanant power in the world. If you read the rest of the group in either 4E or 5/6E aside from Mentalla and Ultrasonique, they're all thugs of various stripes, only united because Fiacho (and Mentalla) manipulating them or giving them an outlet for their thuggery. Mentalla as I said before, joined the group for protection because Eurostar thugs are powerful enough to presumably protect her from Doctor Destroyer. Ultrasonique is the odd man out considering his severe mental disease - he's certainly dangerous and quite capable of destruction but he's doing it because Fiacho's manipulations of his condition than out of a desire to commit thuggery that the others are. They have no subtlety, no base of followers, etc to work with. All their plot seeds and history show they've got very little substance as a group. They're a steam hammer being tasked with forging a new order and only capable to smashing everything to bits. Fiacho is supposed to be smarter than anyone else right? There's very little evidence of this in progression of the Champions Universe story.

 

Professor Muerte, if we're going to use him as a counterpoint I'd say is not too different than Fiacho except Fiacho has managed for all his negative traits not be prone to melting down like Professor Muerte was. Both are men who've focused themselves, using technology for death and destruction but Professor Muerte always came across as a flawed, lesser Doctor Destroyer (which is I believe the point!) - a man who views himself as a God of Death, where Fiacho is more a man driven to see his will done, brutal and vicious but still considerably more grounded than Professor Muerte.