Building a Better Hero Block

[Sketchpad]

Over at the Hero Games 2021 there's been some discussion of formatting Talents with the full builds in the back of the book. This has me wondering about the Hero Stat Block. Does everyone use the common stat block? Are there variations that you think works better? Is it time for a new stat block? What works best for you?

 

 

[Spence]

I am currently working on sheets for characters.  I am starting a new teaching game of Fantasy Hero (finally).  One of the things I want to do is introduce the game without the horrifying insanely complicated (to novice players) standard character sheets.

 

So I have been tinkering on a stripped down one that just contains the information a player actually needs in play.  Plus versions for npc/creatures.

 

I am also working on a "Play Sheet".  One I intend to laminate for the players. It will contain the maneuvers and more importantly OCV/DCV calculations and anything else needed in run if play that is not 100% charactercentric. 

 

The idea is to have a simple character sheet plus a reference where they can jot down things as they play. 

 

Still working on it.

 

[zslane]

As an aid to the GM I guess this has merit, but aren't there computer tools to help manage all this during play?

 

Players, even new ones, shouldn't need anything more "stripped down" than what you find on an old 2E Champions character sheet. Obviously for something like Fantasy Hero where you've got more adventuring equipment to track, and possibly lots of spells to keep track of depending on your chosen magic system, you might need more than what a single-page superhero sheet provides, but I think the essential premise is the same: keep it as simple as a 2E Champions character sheet in terms of overall information density (which, BTW, included the maneuver table and a line for circling your Phases during a Turn).

[Derek Hiemforth]

1 hour ago, Sketchpad said:

This has me wondering about the Hero Stat Block. Does everyone use the common stat block? Are there variations that you think works better? Is it time for a new stat block? What works best for you?

 

I'm not sure what you mean by the "Hero Stat Block."  Can you clarify?

[Spence]

54 minutes ago, zslane said:

but aren't there computer tools to help manage all this during play?

 

For myself I am I'm sure they exist, but we don't allow computers or phones at the table.   The game, any game, is far better when you don't have to explain everything over and over because Joe was texting instead playing.

 

 

 

[Sketchpad]

45 minutes ago, Derek Hiemforth said:

I'm not sure what you mean by the "Hero Stat Block."  Can you clarify?

 

Sure. By "Hero Stat Block" I mean the format in which a character sheet displays stats... characteristics, powers, skills, etc. IMHO, the Hero stat block isn't always "user friendly" to players (and some GMs), nor has it really been updated to a more modern design philosophy. I think the sheet that @DreadDomainhas made has a great flow to it (see link below), and Aldo Regalado's sheet (https://tgidragonflystudios.wordpress.com/2019/01/01/champions-character-sheet-thrice-the-charm/) is pretty nice as well. But is there a better way?

 

 

[zslane]

26 minutes ago, Spence said:

For myself I am I'm sure they exist, but we don't allow computers or phones at the table.   The game, any game, is far better when you don't have to explain everything over and over because Joe was texting instead playing.

 

I sympathize completely. However, banning smartphones and tablets for players is one thing (and mostly a good thing), but the GM should not be similarly banned from using incredibly useful computer tools to help run the game and keep everything organized. My first introduction to RPG assistance tools was back in 1982 when the dungeon masters for the AD&D group I played with used software they had written on a Honeywell mainframe to track monsters, characters, treasure, and combat. Given the complexity of the games we're talking about here, computer assistance for the GM is a real no-brainer.

 

I don't think players need computer assistance during play anyway. They are only controlling one character (maybe two, if allowed to play a sidekick or important DNPC), whereas the GM is typically having to manage far more characters at once.

[Jhamin]

I think there are 2 main issues with the Hero "Stat Block"

 

1) It doesn't flex well between genres.  Some games are all about the skills, others about the powers, others have "super skills" that should be right next to martial arts (which should or should not get their own section depending on genre).

 

2) It is always presented with a singular graphic design.  The "Blue Bars" I see in your example works great for supers, maybe OK for Space Hero, but doesn't seem right at all for fantasy hero, pulp hero, & so on.

 

The "one size fits all" template ends up working against the flow of information.

[Spence]

58 minutes ago, zslane said:

 

Players, even new ones, shouldn't need anything more "stripped down" than what you find on an old 2E Champions character sheet. Obviously for something like Fantasy Hero where you've got more adventuring equipment to track, and possibly lots of spells to keep track of depending on your chosen magic system, you might need more than what a single-page superhero sheet provides, but I think the essential premise is the same: keep it as simple as a 2E Champions character sheet in terms of overall information density (which, BTW, included the maneuver table and a line for circling your Phases during a Turn).

My version of "stripped down" is zero costs and virtually no game rules annotations.  It just contains actually game play information.

[Spence]

1 hour ago, zslane said:

I don't think players need computer assistance during play anyway. They are only controlling one character (maybe two, if allowed to play a sidekick or important DNPC), whereas the GM is typically having to manage far more characters at once.

 

Fair enough.  But I don't use a machine when I GM. I've been running things hardcopy for so long I find it difficult to find anything quickly on the computer.  If ePubs (of any version) had a real way to bookmark like you can in a physical book that may change, but all the "bookmarks" I've have seen so far take longer to use than doing a keyword search. 

 

32 minutes ago, Jhamin said:

The "one size fits all" template ends up working against the flow of information.

 

Are we talking a one-size-fits-all or are we talking a basic stat block that can be tailored to the game. 

My Fantasy Hero sheet will include things that my Superhero sheets will not and vice versa.  But the overall design will be the same so I assume that this will hold true for a Stat Block.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I forever used a laptop with GSPC handling combat duties for me, especially who moves when, what everyone's combat stats are, etc.  Wonderful little program.  Sadly I haven't run games since the new Hero Combat manager came out, so I can't really say how well that works but it looks good.

 

Hero has always had different types of sheets for different games.  Champions had a space for an illustration and a big long powers block, Fantasy Hero had fancy scroll work and font changes, with a larger area for skills, Danger International had a really modern look with hit locations table, etc.

 

I'm not enormously fond of the newer character sheets, particularly 2 pages, but I always had a combat reference sheet for the back (in a transparent sleeve, for felt pen annotation and erasing).  The front had the character, the back had combat space for keeping track of END use, being stunned etc, stun damage, body damage, and equipment.  People seemed to like them fine.  So its not so much the 2-sheet design that troubles me as the putting of all the stuff that used to fit on one sheet into two.  Adds to the "Hero is more complicated" myth.

[Ninja-Bear]

Once upon a time, someone on the board was kind enough to make me a 3 column 2 sheet character sheet for 6th. I really wish I remembered who did this cause I’d like the old 4thed Heroic sheet with weapon block for 6th.

[archer]

I tried something like that when teaching my family to play.

 

"Here's what you can do on your turn" section listing out the commonly-used maneuvers and attack powers for the character. I tried to list it roughly in order of what I thought how often each would be used in play by that particular character.

 

"Movement" showing full moves and half moves for each type of movement.

 

"Other combat powers" showing other powers which might be useful in combat like Force Field and Invisibility.

 

"Non-combat stuff to do" listing most skills plus stuff like "looking around".

 

"Panic Button" showing stuff to do when you get in trouble like Dodge, Block, Dive for Cover and character-specific powers.

 

 

I thought it worked pretty well considering that none of them at that point had ever played a RPG before (except for one session of West End Games Star Wars for my wife). It was pretty straightforward picking something off of a list.

 

I included a more traditional character sheet but those were hardly used at all by the players in the initial sessions. 

 

I didn't like that people spent most of the game looking at their lists rather than watching me or interacting with the other players. I tried to give everyone plenty of time on their turns and to engage them in conversation but people still looked at the lists all the time.

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah that's why I built the Hero Combat Survival Guide, so players could have it around to look at.  I stole the idea from Savage Worlds, they had something like that and it was really useful for me as a new player.

[Derek Hiemforth]

19 hours ago, archer said:

I thought it worked pretty well considering that none of them at that point had ever played a RPG before (except for one session of West End Games Star Wars for my wife). It was pretty straightforward picking something off of a list.

 

I included a more traditional character sheet but those were hardly used at all by the players in the initial sessions. 

 

I didn't like that people spent most of the game looking at their lists rather than watching me or interacting with the other players. I tried to give everyone plenty of time on their turns and to engage them in conversation but people still looked at the lists all the time.

 

This pretty much exactly matches my experiences when I've used similar "list-driven" character sheets for convention games.  I also found that they seemed to constrain player creativity. Instead of just trying to do something in the game world, or instead of asking whether they could do something with power X about problem Y, they tended to just stick to exactly what I had put on the lists -- nothing more, nothing less.

 

And that's fine to an extent, I guess(?). I mean, simplification was part of the point.  But it still felt off to me somehow...

[Sketchpad]

On 4/23/2021 at 3:41 PM, Jhamin said:

I think there are 2 main issues with the Hero "Stat Block"

 

1) It doesn't flex well between genres.  Some games are all about the skills, others about the powers, others have "super skills" that should be right next to martial arts (which should or should not get their own section depending on genre).

 

2) It is always presented with a singular graphic design.  The "Blue Bars" I see in your example works great for supers, maybe OK for Space Hero, but doesn't seem right at all for fantasy hero, pulp hero, & so on.

 

The "one size fits all" template ends up working against the flow of information.

On 4/23/2021 at 4:20 PM, Spence said:

Are we talking a one-size-fits-all or are we talking a basic stat block that can be tailored to the game. 

My Fantasy Hero sheet will include things that my Superhero sheets will not and vice versa.  But the overall design will be the same so I assume that this will hold true for a Stat Block.

 

@Jhamin Do you have an example of Fantasy Hero sheet that you use? One of the things I would like to see in stat blocks is some genre emulation. Fantasy Hero sheets should look a bit different than, say, a Space Hero sheet. There should be different focuses depending on the sheet you're using. I've often considered making a Spell Book sheet for my players that would break down the power builds, while a simple list of spells may exist on the main sheet, for example. But there also has to be something connecting the threads between genres as well. Maybe the way stats and in-play mechanics are presented? 

 

On 4/23/2021 at 4:04 PM, Spence said:

My version of "stripped down" is zero costs and virtually no game rules annotations.  It just contains actually game play information.

 

I have considered something similar, @Spence. I often wonder why the sheet has to have every point listed on it, and not just be the info needed to play the character. Maybe the resolution is a build sheet and a character sheet? Wasn't there something similar in 2e Champions?

 

On 4/23/2021 at 6:19 PM, archer said:

I thought it worked pretty well considering that none of them at that point had ever played a RPG before (except for one session of West End Games Star Wars for my wife). It was pretty straightforward picking something off of a list.

 

I included a more traditional character sheet but those were hardly used at all by the players in the initial sessions. 

 

I didn't like that people spent most of the game looking at their lists rather than watching me or interacting with the other players. I tried to give everyone plenty of time on their turns and to engage them in conversation but people still looked at the lists all the time.

 

@archerDo you have an example of the sheets that you used? I agree on the list part, but that seems to be an issue occasionally no matter the system. Or at least I see it pop its head up occasionally. 

 

5 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Yeah that's why I built the Hero Combat Survival Guide, so players could have it around to look at.  I stole the idea from Savage Worlds, they had something like that and it was really useful for me as a new player.

 

@Christopher R TaylorIt's a very useful document. Do you think something like this should be included in a standard character sheet?

 

Is there something more aesthetically needed for a stat block? Some kind of graphic or a format that works better. Have you ever looked at another RPG product and said "That format is clean and useful. I wish other games used it?"  

[archer]

1 hour ago, Sketchpad said:

 

@archerDo you have an example of the sheets that you used? I agree on the list part, but that seems to be an issue occasionally no matter the system. Or at least I see it pop its head up occasionally. 

 

Sorry, no.

 

They were each individually handwritten more than 10 years ago.

 

Even if they were up to date, I've lost them over the years.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Do you think something like this should be included in a standard character sheet?

 

I don't think so, no.  I think they are good for a hand out for players to pass around: my phase, what do I do here?  Ooh, haymaker

 

Check out this thread for some character sheet ideas, might be closer to what you have in mind?

 

Also this Western Hero character sheet is pretty clear and simple

[Sketchpad]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

I don't think so, no.  I think they are good for a hand out for players to pass around: my phase, what do I do here?  Ooh, haymaker

 

Check out this thread for some character sheet ideas, might be closer to what you have in mind?

 

Also this Western Hero character sheet is pretty clear and simple

 

Not really, @Christopher R Taylor. The sheets are a bit too basic for my use. I'm thinking we could use something a bit more robust honestly. I'm thinking we'd need the other stats since they do have a purpose in the game. I was playing around with formatting a while back and came up with the following. Still not 100% happy with it, but it's coming along.

 

 

[Fedifensor]

I've played in some of Bill Keyes' Hero games at local conventions, and he did a great job creating thematic sheets showing only what the players needed to play the characters during the adventure.  I think there's a good argument for creating two character sheets for each character - one to use during play, and another to "show the math" that makes the character work.

[Spence]

1 hour ago, Fedifensor said:

I've played in some of Bill Keyes' Hero games at local conventions, and he did a great job creating thematic sheets showing only what the players needed to play the characters during the adventure.  I think there's a good argument for creating two character sheets for each character - one to use during play, and another to "show the math" that makes the character work.

 

It is, but it appears to be remarkably difficult to come up with that elusive play sheet

[DreadDomain]

On 4/25/2021 at 1:23 PM, Sketchpad said:

 

Not really, @Christopher R Taylor. The sheets are a bit too basic for my use. I'm thinking we could use something a bit more robust honestly. I'm thinking we'd need the other stats since they do have a purpose in the game. I was playing around with formatting a while back and came up with the following. Still not 100% happy with it, but it's coming along.

 

 

 

I like this format better than what we have been seeing from HERO games for the last... year... decades... The worst features of the official layout are 1) the wall of characteristics (which you avoid on the sheet by grouping them thematically) and the block of text we often see with powers which you do not quite avoid here but it still feels less cluttered because you took away the costs. Personally, prefer to do away with the advantage and limitation values but add the Active Points of the power and the endurance* cost at the end; like this...  (60AP); END 6.

 

* But to be honest we quite often totally ignored endurance (less book keeping) which made the game flowing with no  significant loss of anything really.

 

For Skills and Talents, I prefer to have them one by line (like you have done with complications) rather than skillA 14, skillB 12, skillC 13, etc... because when a sheet as many skills it hard to scroll through  (to save space, I am using 2 columns for skills). 

 

Again, to save space, I am write DCV and DMCV on the title line with Defensive, OCV, OMCV with Offensive and SPD and Phases with Movement (Title is left-justified, OCV centered and OMCV right-justified).

 

None the less, I like your layout and the font chosen, it looks really clean.

 

 

[Stonewild]

I like  your comment about one liners....

and take it one step further for player's character gaming sheets....

 

My goal is make a block that looks like Traveller Classic Character block.     ____ Capt. Jim  879A9C  ZeroG-1, Gun-1, Pilot-2  2000cr  _____ 

 

Okay, not really that short.

I'd like a block summary made up of only "special effect" headings and a few necessary numbers. Thus the character sheet could assist the GM in her alternate hero universe adventure.  Otherwise, some players feel like they are all taking a high school math pop quiz while being told a ogre is throwing a bolder at their wizard.  It is really hard for some of us to be in both places at the same time.  

 

The only character stat elements needed after character creation are the target numbers for skills and health.  Show the character elements in terms of the genre "special effects", not power descriptions.   Special effect stat example:    Can lift a dragon.  Usually dodge an arrow.  Health as a Orc.  Mostly Clueless.             

 

Generally speaking, my folks use the same short list of skills, attacks and defenses in most situations.  My proposed summary character sheet reminds me of the old spell list,  which was simple and short descriptive "magic" sounding titles.  However, when needed the simple summary titles are backed up by a book of details for each ability.   The great part of Hero system is that the GM and player get to build their spell book.  

 

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

I think there's a good argument for creating two character sheets for each character - one to use during play, and another to "show the math" that makes the character work.

 

I think having a stripped-down basics sheet to play and an HDC character to build and spend xps on is the best approach.  Nobody needs to see the modifier values of every modifier on their powers, much less all the modifiers.  "Fireball: Blast 9d6 vs ED (fire) Area Effect: Radius 4m (+¼) Explosion (56 active points)" or "Fireball: 9d6 Blast explosion 4m" which is best for a character sheet?  The latter, I believe.  You can have all the rest in the HDC file.

 

Similarly we don't need how much each characteristic costs on the character sheet.  That's a throwback to the "fill out your sheet by hand as you build it" days.  You just need Stat - Value - Roll.

 

And if you break OCV, DCV, OMCV, DMCV off to its own section, that helps greatly unclutter the characteristics section.  I'm not a huge fan of splitting too many characteristics all over the page though, because then you have to hunt your stats instead of just use them.  I mean D&D does that, they put saving throws and resistances and hit points and AC all over the sheet, but that makes me have to hunt things on a sheet until I'm really used to it; not great for beginners.

[Stonewild]

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

having a stripped-down basics sheet to play and an HDC character to build and spend xps on is the best approach.  Nobody needs to see the modifier values of every modifier on their powers, much less all the modifiers. 

I agree.   

Is there a Hero designer  export format that only prints the notes and list headings.    I can use notes and List heading to make the player's character sheet I want.    For my more casual players, I have been creating  descriptive list names and adding notes to help them out.    One example of a Skill List:  " She can move thru the starship's innards like an Olympic gymnast."  Then in the list are several agility skills that match the player's concept of her character. 

 

She gave me the concept and I translated to Hero.  All the agility skills have the same chance.  So I don't really need to list all the skills for the player.  I could just add 14 or less to the list heading, and print the heading on her sheet.  And if I needed,  put a few details in the notes and print those too.  The player may not know Champions agility skills, but she knows what a gymnast can do. Because that is how she described her character.   Using the list and notes fields, I can also pull in descriptions from supporting talents and equipment into one place for her Starship Engineer's "Olympic Gymnast" abilities.  

 

If I can't find a export format to do the notes and list heading, maybe I can create my own print?